Did God institute High Priests, Baptism, Eucharist, Papacy?

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Chair of Saint Peter - Wikipedia

The Chair of Saint Peter (Latin: Cathedra Petri), also known as the Throne of Saint Peter, is a relic conserved in St. Peter's Basilica in Vatican City, the sovereign enclave of the Pope inside Rome, Italy. The relic is a wooden throne that tradition claims the Apostle Saint Peter, the leader of the Early Christians in Rome and first Pope, used as Bishop of Rome.........

Above, on the golden background of the frieze, is the Latin inscription: "O Pastor Ecclesiae, tu omnes Christi pascis agnos et oves" (O pastor of the Church, you feed all Christ's lambs and sheep). On the right is the same writing in Greek.[7] Behind the altar is placed Bernini's monument enclosing the wooden chair, both of which are seen as symbolic of the authority of the Bishop of Rome as Vicar of Christ and successor of Saint Peter.........................

Left this part out... "no part of the chair dated earlier than the sixth century."

Forgive me...

 

[jaison jose]

And you ignore the part where Jesus said "at the renewal of all things". Do you think you are living in the world where all things have been renewed? The throne is not earthly despite the Pope having his "chair".

You also ignore the concept of 12 thrones with none above the others.

hope good for u

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I'll respond to this one issue. If you could get this point right, all else would fall into place for you, and all your defenses would fall before your eyes like a house of cards.

No, "Church" is far different from "Denomination." Human "philosophy" (a misnomer right away), in the school of "nominalism", confused things with the names of things. From my computer dictionary, "Nominalism": the doctrine that universals or general ideas are mere names without any corresponding reality, and that only particular objects exist..."

Listening to that brief definition, perhaps you can see how protestantism - philosophically embracing nominalism - confused the universal meaning of "church" with "particular ecclesial groups of Christians." And hence, there exist only "particular ecclesial groups of Christians" - which (why not!) can have different "names" or "denominations" such as Lutheran, Calvinists, etc, different "churches" named differently merely to distinguish non-"essential" differences.

However, the essential of the word "Church" had already been destroyed by the differences, which destroyed the essential significance of the one and only "church" that Jesus formed and sent as His witnesses to the darkened and fallen world.

"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it." (Mt 16:18)​

Note the singular: ONE Church, not "churches". Note the possessive: MY Church.

How many Christs are there? (answer: one.) How many Churches are there? (answer: one).

How many opinionated men are there, all reading the same Bible and all sure that their interpretations are right? (answer: many). Hence, how many versions are there, of "church" among men who believe not in "Church" but in "Denominations"? (answer: shamefully, very many.)

How many "churches" does Jesus want? (answer: one)

Please pray over this following passage, friend. Seek the heart of Jesus in this matter! He will show you the Truth, if you seek Truth will all your heart, no matter the cost!

Jn 17:19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.
Jn 17:20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,
Jn 17:21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Jn 17:22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,...​

While I agree that there are no denominations within The Church. I wouldn't think it fair to the subject, not to mention the offices that did distinguish The Church in different locations. Such as Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria etc et al.

The offices of Metropolitan in the second century and the Patriarchal structure of the 3rd gave us truly distinctive existences of "The Church" in different locations. These Churches being Autocephalous has likely lent that "denominational structure" idea to the Protestant mindset.

What the Protestant does not understand is that all the "Autocephalous Churches" all agree to a single DOGMA.

Act 16:4-5 "And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees [DOGMA] for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem. And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily."

Where as denominations differ in DOGMA. (Those things that cannot be denied and call oneself Christian. Example: Christ died by crucifixion and rose on the third day.)

From the (c)atholic point of view, that means denominations are, by their own definition, outside "The Church" who agree to that single DOGMA. In the original meaning... denominations are Apostate.

For the Orthodox, these DOGMATIC statements are the items listed in the "Nicene Constantinopolitan" creed which was an expansion of the first baptismal creed we see used by the Eunuch in ACTS 8. "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

This question; "Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?" is still asked today of persons being accepted, and soon to be baptized into, The Orthodox Church... not once, but three times.

Forgive me...

 

[fide]

While I agree that there are no denominations within The Church. I wouldn't think it fair to the subject, not to mention the offices that did distinguish The Church in different locations. Such as Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria etc et al.

The offices of Metropolitan in the second century and the Patriarchal structure of the 3rd gave us truly distinctive existences of "The Church" in different locations. These Churches being Autocephalous has likely lent that "denominational structure" idea to the Protestant mindset.

What the Protestant does not understand is that all the "Autocephalous Churches" all agree to a single DOGMA.

Act 16:4-5 "And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees [DOGMA] for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem. And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily."

Where as denominations differ in DOGMA. (Those things that cannot be denied and call oneself Christian. Example: Christ died by crucifixion and rose on the third day.)

From the (c)atholic point of view, that means denominations are, by their own definition, outside "The Church" who agree to that single DOGMA. In the original meaning... denominations are Apostate.

For the Orthodox, these DOGMATIC statements are the items listed in the "Nicene Constantinopolitan" creed which was an expansion of the first baptismal creed we see used by the Eunuch in ACTS 8. "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

This question; "Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?" is still asked today of persons being accepted, and soon to be baptized into, The Orthodox Church... not once, but three times.

Forgive me...

Yes, the Orthodox in no way can be considered "protestant". The protestants even think that the Eastern Rite Catholic Churches are "denominations" - though they are all within the Catholic Church. I hope, and I pray with the Lord Jesus, His prayer that "they may all be one"! All - first the Orthodox, then even the protestants - may we all be one, that the world may stunned and moved by the supernatural miracle of grace, that is, a true brotherhood among men, a koinonia on earth because of Jesus Christ.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Four questions, four answers; then is there something common to all four?

1) Did God institute the office of High Priests? Yes, so clear from scripture.
Exodus 28:1 “Have Aaron your brother brought to you from among the Israelites, along with his sons Nadab and Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar, so they may serve me as priests. 2 Make sacred garments for your brother Aaron to give him dignity and honor. 43 “This is to be a lasting ordinance for Aaron and his descendants."

2) Did God institute the sacrament of Baptism? Yes, so clear from scripture.
Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

3) Did God institute the sacrament of the Lord's Supper? Yes, so clear from scripture.
Luke 22:19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”
20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

1 Corinthians 11:24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

4) Did God institute the office of the Papacy? Not clear from scripture, debated so much.
I don't wish to get into that red herring of Peter was the first Pope. I just want people to acknowledge that the scriptural support for the Papacy as a lasting office is not even close to the scripture support for other important offices and sacraments. Further, scripture records the practice of the High Priests, baptisms and the Lord's Supper succeeding in time. There is no scripture recording Peter giving his "key" to another. Further when Jesus gave a key to Peter, he also gave them to the other apostles and said there would be 12 thrones in heaven; I think there have been more than 12 Popes. As for the argument that the Church has a shepherd, we know that the one Shepherd is the Son of God.

Why would God leave it up to one contentious text to institute something as important as giving one in the office both infallibility and supreme authority over the Church? If God could write out the 10 commandments, Jesus could have been a lot clearer in instituting the Papacy if that was what he wanted to exist.

Regarding the last, I would only like to suggest something...what do you believe the keys to the kingdom represents? I'll give you my answer:
The keys to the kingdom...have you ever been given, even temporarily, the key to a property not your own? I was recently given the key to our parish hall, and I want to say, one thing was I wanted to get it out of my hand. Why? Because by holding that key, I could be held responsible for the loss or destruction of whatever is in there. There are industrial kitchen equipment, and lots of books, as well as sound equipment, and so on. If I was held responsible, I could be liable for a lot of financials there. So at the first opportunity, I handed them over to the person who has control of that. I'm telling you, it was a relief. I needed the key for a short time, but as soon as I could, I got them out of my hands.

What Jesus was telling Peter in Matthew 16:18 is exactly that-Peter, you're going to be responsible for the souls of the world. It's your responsibility to get them into heaven.

So whatever you think the papacy is, whether he's 'pope' or whatever, being promised the keys of the kingdom is a big deal. Peter was made head of the Church when Jesus went to our Lord.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Yes, the Orthodox in no way can be considered "protestant".
The protestants even think that the Eastern Rite Catholic Churches are "denominations" - though they are all within the Catholic Church. I hope, and I pray with the Lord Jesus, His prayer that "they may all be one"! All - first the Orthodox, then even the protestants - may we all be one, that the world may stunned and moved by the supernatural miracle of grace, that is, a true brotherhood among men, a koinonia on earth because of Jesus Christ.

According to CF's structure, they do not distinguish between Protestant and non-Protestant churches.
Rather they are either "Christian Community" or "Faith Group".
[Not sure what the difference is between the 2.....]

Forums

Christian Communities | Christian Forums
Christian Communities

Faith Groups | Christian Forums
Faith Groups

And according to CF's SoF, they are all considered "Denominations", and rightly so IMHO...

New Statement of Faith at Christian Forums

Christian Forums has changed our Statement of Faith to the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed. The Nicene Creed has a long history of being the normative Statement of Faith for CF and after much deliberation we feel it is in the best interest of the site to return to the oldest, and most widely used, profession of faith in Christianity.

In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2: 5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16: 15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2: 42; Ephesians 2: 19-22)

*The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination, institution, or doctrine.

Q: Isn't the Creed a "Catholic thing"?

A: Well, I'd prefer to call it an "orthodox" thing...but all joking aside the Creed is the oldest, and most widely accepted, profession of the Christian faith. Does it cover everything? Of course not. Other statements were considered but were rejected for lack of general universal acceptance.
The Creed is given high importance in the majority of Christian denominations (both East and West) to include the following churches: Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, the Old Catholic Church, the Lutheran Church, many Reformed churches, the Methodist Church, the Presbyterian Church and many non-denominational Protestant churches.

 

[Goatee]

Regarding the last, I would only like to suggest something...what do you believe the keys to the kingdom represents? I'll give you my answer:
The keys to the kingdom...have you ever been given, even temporarily, the key to a property not your own? I was recently given the key to our parish hall, and I want to say, one thing was I wanted to get it out of my hand. Why? Because by holding that key, I could be held responsible for the loss or destruction of whatever is in there. There are industrial kitchen equipment, and lots of books, as well as sound equipment, and so on. If I was held responsible, I could be liable for a lot of financials there. So at the first opportunity, I handed them over to the person who has control of that. I'm telling you, it was a relief. I needed the key for a short time, but as soon as I could, I got them out of my hands.

What Jesus was telling Peter in Matthew 16:18 is exactly that-Peter, you're going to be responsible for the souls of the world. It's your responsibility to get them into heaven.

So whatever you think the papacy is, whether he's 'pope' or whatever, being promised the keys of the kingdom is a big deal. Peter was made head of the Church when Jesus went to our Lord.

Well said. I agree

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Regarding the last, I would only like to suggest something...what do you believe the keys to the kingdom represents? I'll give you my answer:....................

So whatever you think the papacy is, whether he's 'pope' or whatever, being promised the keys of the kingdom is a big deal.
Peter was made head of the Church when Jesus went to our Lord.

Interesting.
Perhaps the RCs should minister to the Jewish church and Protestants to the Gentile church. Just kidding of course......

Gal 2:
9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed;
12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision.
14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all,
“If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you[fn] compel Gentiles to live as Jews?

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

I'll respond to this one issue. If you could get this point right, all else would fall into place for you, and all your defenses would fall before your eyes like a house of cards.

No, "Church" is far different from "Denomination." Human "philosophy" (a misnomer right away), in the school of "nominalism", confused things with the names of things. From my computer dictionary, "Nominalism": the doctrine that universals or general ideas are mere names without any corresponding reality, and that only particular objects exist..."

Listening to that brief definition, perhaps you can see how protestantism - philosophically embracing nominalism - confused the universal meaning of "church" with "particular ecclesial groups of Christians." And hence, there exist only "particular ecclesial groups of Christians" - which (why not!) can have different "names" or "denominations" such as Lutheran, Calvinists, etc, different "churches" named differently merely to distinguish non-"essential" differences.

However, the essential of the word "Church" had already been destroyed by the differences, which destroyed the essential significance of the one and only "church" that Jesus formed and sent as His witnesses to the darkened and fallen world.

"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it." (Mt 16:18)

Note the singular: ONE Church, not "churches". Note the possessive: MY Church.

How many Christs are there? (answer: one.) How many Churches are there? (answer: one).

How many opinionated men are there, all reading the same Bible and all sure that their interpretations are right? (answer: many). Hence, how many versions are there, of "church" among men who believe not in "Church" but in "Denominations"? (answer: shamefully, very many.)

How many "churches" does Jesus want? (answer: one)

Please pray over this following passage, friend. Seek the heart of Jesus in this matter! He will show you the Truth, if you seek Truth will all your heart, no matter the cost!

Jn 17:19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.
Jn 17:20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,
Jn 17:21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Jn 17:22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,...

If you only put as much effort into finding the origin of Pope which is the equal answer to your question of words not found in the Bible.


A denomination is a church or organization that follows the core beliefs but has some differences of teachings. In the NT there are multiple examples of people still considered followers of the way, but having different teachings. Specifically Revelation points out certain churches following some incorrect teachings. Note, they are still considered part of the "one Church" even though they have different earthly shepherds.

Now, of utmost importance is for you to learn the meaning of "the Church". This is not the first time that I have had to explain this to RC's. For some reason they are inclined to speak as if the one Church was the RCC. Now when you learn the true meaning of the Church, you will realize that all Christians are brothers in the one Church of Jesus and that the promise of wherever two or three gather in his name, he will be with them. And, when Jesus is there, he is shepherding and sending the Holy Spirit to help them.

The Church is the body of all Christians, so that includes your lamented Protestants. It is not a visible grouping. Here have a look at the official doctrine of your church for what the Church is.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText


Lastly, about your desire for unity in the Church. I pray that you learn that all Christians are already one with Jesus. There is no huge doctrine test to gain this membership. I very much hope you to not wish to glorify the visible church and place a greater importance on it. That would be a very bad day for there to be only one visible church in this age. It would be the apocalyptic ending of the world.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Regarding the last, I would only like to suggest something...what do you believe the keys to the kingdom represents? I'll give you my answer:
The keys to the kingdom...have you ever been given, even temporarily, the key to a property not your own? I was recently given the key to our parish hall, and I want to say, one thing was I wanted to get it out of my hand. Why? Because by holding that key, I could be held responsible for the loss or destruction of whatever is in there. There are industrial kitchen equipment, and lots of books, as well as sound equipment, and so on. If I was held responsible, I could be liable for a lot of financials there. So at the first opportunity, I handed them over to the person who has control of that. I'm telling you, it was a relief. I needed the key for a short time, but as soon as I could, I got them out of my hands.

What Jesus was telling Peter in Matthew 16:18 is exactly that-Peter, you're going to be responsible for the souls of the world. It's your responsibility to get them into heaven.

So whatever you think the papacy is, whether he's 'pope' or whatever, being promised the keys of the kingdom is a big deal. Peter was made head of the Church when Jesus went to our Lord.

Having the keys certainly does give one authority. If you read my posts, you would see I profess that. Do you understand that there are different keys in God's kingdom? Do you understand that Jesus listed exactly what authority was given in keys given? That authority was to "whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Jesus also gave the authority to forgive sins. Now read more than one verse in scripture to learn of others given the same authority.

There is no promotion of Peter to be above the other apostles in the one verse of scripture. Further Peter acknowledge himself to being just one shepherd of many all under Jesus, the Chief Shepherd.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Perhaps the RCs should minister to the Jewish church and Protestants to the Gentile church. Just kidding of course......

You certainly have my back in this thread. Thanks!

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

While I agree that there are no denominations within The Church.

But with current usage of the words, there are multiple denominations in the Church.
The Church is the collection of all Christians. It is an invisible group of people.
Denominations are visible groups that affiliate with different church names/organizations that have different teachings, some great, some small, but all still profess Jesus their Savior.

I wouldn't think it fair to the subject, not to mention the offices that did distinguish The Church in different locations. Such as Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria etc et al.

The offices of Metropolitan in the second century and the Patriarchal structure of the 3rd gave us truly distinctive existences of "The Church" in different locations. These Churches being Autocephalous has likely lent that "denominational structure" idea to the Protestant mindset.

What the Protestant does not understand is that all the "Autocephalous Churches" all agree to a single DOGMA.

Act 16:4-5 "And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees [DOGMA] for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem. And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily."

Where as denominations differ in DOGMA. (Those things that cannot be denied and call oneself Christian. Example: Christ died by crucifixion and rose on the third day.)

From the (c)atholic point of view, that means denominations are, by their own definition, outside "The Church" who agree to that single DOGMA. In the original meaning... denominations are Apostate.

For the Orthodox, these DOGMATIC statements are the items listed in the "Nicene Constantinopolitan" creed which was an expansion of the first baptismal creed we see used by the Eunuch in ACTS 8. "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

This question; "Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?" is still asked today of persons being accepted, and soon to be baptized into, The Orthodox Church... not once, but three times.

You may promote a certain definition of denomination, but it is as you say an old definition.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

But with current usage of the words, there are multiple denominations in the Church.
The Church is the collection of all Christians. It is an invisible group of people.
Denominations are visible groups that affiliate with different church names/organizations that have different teachings, some great, some small, but all still profess Jesus their Savior.

You may promote a certain definition of denomination, but it is as you say an old definition.

I cant agree that "all Christians" are IN the Church.
From our point of view, one can be Christian, professing a basic understanding, and not be IN the Church.

Forgive me...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

But with current usage of the words, there are multiple denominations in the Church.
The Church is the collection of all Christians. It is an invisible group of people.
Denominations are visible groups that affiliate with different church names/organizations that have different teachings, some great, some small, but all still profess Jesus their Savior.

You may promote a certain definition of denomination, but it is as you say an old definition.

There have been a few threads on GT concerning the visible and invisible church and I wish I could "resurrect/necromance" them, but alas they are too old..... so I will just let others look at them on google search.
The thread listed as "My problem with the invisible church" created back in 2007 is one of my all time favorites on that topic.....man, those were the good ole days!

https://www.google.com/search?safe=...i263i264k1j0i22i30k1j33i160k1.184.1esMMeDabaA

tadoflamb said: ↑
It's invisible. I can't see it.

TigerBunny said:
Turn on the "Light".

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Regarding the last, I would only like to suggest something...what do you believe the keys to the kingdom represents? I'll give you my answer:

What Jesus was telling Peter in Matthew 16:18 is exactly that-Peter, you're going to be responsible for the souls of the world. It's your responsibility to get them into heaven.

So whatever you think the papacy is, whether he's 'pope' or whatever, being promised the keys of the kingdom is a big deal. Peter was made head of the Church when Jesus went to our Lord.

Well, let's look at in a more historical context........

The Church Fathers’ Interpretation of the Rock of Matthew 16:18:An Historical Refutation of the Claims of Roman Catholicism
The Church Fathers’ Interpretation of the Rock of Matthew 16:18:
An Historical Refutation of the Claims of Roman Catholicism

Matthew 16:18 is the critical passage of Scripture for the establishment of the authority claims of the Roman Catholic Church. It is upon the interpretation of the rock and keys that the entire structure of the Church of Rome rests. And Vatican I plainly states that its interpretation of Matthew 16 is that which has been held by the Church from the very beginning and is therefore not a doctrinal development............

Roman Catholic apologists, in an effort to substantiate the claims of Vatican I, make appeals to certain statements of Church fathers which they claim give unequivocal and unambiguous evidence of a belief in papal primacy in the early Church. Briefly, the arguments can be summarized as follows:......

An examination of the writings of the fathers does reveal the expression of a consistent viewpoint, but it is not that of the Roman Catholic Church, as the documentation of the major fathers of the East and West in this article will demonstrate. This particular article is strictly historical in nature. Its purpose is to document the patristic interpretation of the rock of Matthew 16:18. And the evidence will demonstrate that the Protestant and Orthodox understanding of the text is rooted in this patristic consensus. From a strictly scriptural point of view, the Roman Catholic interpretation of Matthew 16:18 is divorced from its proper biblical context.

The Roman Church states that Matthew 16 teaches that the Church is built upon Peter and therefore upon the bishops of Rome in an exclusive sense. What is seldom ever mentioned is the fact that Ephesians 2:20 uses precisely the same language as that found in Matthew 16 when it says the Church is built upon the apostles and prophets with Christ as the cornerstone...........

.................................

 

[PanDeVida]

Four questions, four answers; then is there something common to all four?

1) Did God institute the office of High Priests? Yes, so clear from scripture.
Exodus 28:1 “Have Aaron your brother brought to you from among the Israelites, along with his sons Nadab and Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar, so they may serve me as priests. 2 Make sacred garments for your brother Aaron to give him dignity and honor. 43 “This is to be a lasting ordinance for Aaron and his descendants."

2) Did God institute the sacrament of Baptism? Yes, so clear from scripture.
Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

3) Did God institute the sacrament of the Lord's Supper? Yes, so clear from scripture.
Luke 22:19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”
20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

1 Corinthians 11:24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

4) Did God institute the office of the Papacy? Not clear from scripture, debated so much.
I don't wish to get into that red herring of Peter was the first Pope. I just want people to acknowledge that the scriptural support for the Papacy as a lasting office is not even close to the scripture support for other important offices and sacraments. Further, scripture records the practice of the High Priests, baptisms and the Lord's Supper succeeding in time. There is no scripture recording Peter giving his "key" to another. Further when Jesus gave a key to Peter, he also gave them to the other apostles and said there would be 12 thrones in heaven; I think there have been more than 12 Popes. As for the argument that the Church has a shepherd, we know that the one Shepherd is the Son of God.

Why would God leave it up to one contentious text to institute something as important as giving one in the office both infallibility and supreme authority over the Church? If God could write out the 10 commandments, Jesus could have been a lot clearer in instituting the Papacy if that was what he wanted to exist.

Anticipate,

As for your #1. you answered it correctly with a Yes!

As for your #2. you answered it correctly with a Yes!

As for your #3. you answered it correctly with a Yes

As for your #4. here is where you go wrong! Yes, you do want to get into that red herring regarding Peter as the first Pope, thus why you posted this thread re: the belief of the Catholic Church founded on Rock.

"Did God institute the office of Papacy"? This debate came in the 15th century 1500 years later with the protestant reformation and sadly it continues today.Outside of His Church. Prior to the 15th century there was no debate re: the Papacy and that is proof to show that the Papacy is of Jesus Christ: You are Peter and on this Rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail over It!

One way the satan TRY'S to prevail men, not the the Church is to make men believe that there is no Papacy in the one Church founded by Christ on Rock, and Many men have been lead astray / prevailed.

Anticipate, as you know Jesus did not come to destroy the Law or the Prophets but he came to fulfill them. Such as there was a Chair of Moses in the Old Testament, there is the Chair of Peter in the New Testament. Why a Chair in the Old Testament and continues a Chair in the New Testament? The Answer is, It is to bring His Law and Order in His Catholic Church.

Jesus Christ knows best, without an Hierarchy there would be Chaos such as in the protestant churches, how many are there now to date? Each Protestant Church having their own pope, each having their own interpretations of Scripture, etc... One thing these Protestant churchessss have in common, is that they are against the One Church that Christ founded on Rock, and satan no doubt is loving it.

Anticipate, you said: "There is no scripture recording Peter giving his "key" to another". Anticipate are you a man of little faith and need to see it written down in Scripture? John said it best: John 21: 25But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.

Anticipate, MY POINT IS, if not all that Jesus did was not recorded in Scripture, then Note, not all that the Apostles did was recorded in Scripture. SUCH AS, "Peter giving the "Keys" not a key as you stated to another. By the way usually it is not Peter who gives the Key to another, it is the Church hierarchy that gives the Keys, guided by the Holy Spirit/Laying on of hands, because the Keys to be transferred, to another Peter had to die first. However, there is Historical proof there is facts / documentations GOING BACK 2000 years of Each Successor of the first Pope who's Name is/was St. Peter, on down to the present Pope. Amen Amen Let this proof be your judge.

Do you believe that Abraham Lincoln was the 16th President of the United States, and how do you go by believing this, because surly this is not in Scripture??? You believe it because of the historical proof / fact /documentation, then why not believe in the Catholic Church, the one that gave you the Bible that you quote from even though it is 7 books short.


Anticipate, you stated:"Further when Jesus gave a key to Peter, he also gave them to the other apostles and said there would be 12 thrones in heaven;". Anticipate, what you do not see or understand that Keys and thrones are two different things. And by the way it is KEYS, Not Key! Anticipate, see you are even wrong by saying KEY, and what other things are you are wrong about the Catholic Church? Many!

This is how you know Jesus Christ, was only speaking to St. Peter and not to the rest: Matthew 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. Anticipate, did the Lord also says in Matthew 16:18 thou art John or thou art Matthew, or thou art Thomas, etc...??? The Answer is NOPE TO NONE OF THESE BUT TO St. Peter!!! One does not need to be a rocket scientist to understand that it was St. Peter, that Jesus Christ was referring to, to say other wise is just to be a PROTESTOR / Protestant.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Anticipate, you stated:"Further when Jesus gave a key to Peter, he also gave them to the other apostles and said there would be 12 thrones in heaven;". Anticipate, what you do not see or understand that Keys and thrones are two different things.
And by the way it is KEYS, Not Key! Anticipate, see you are even wrong by saying KEY, and what other things are you are wrong about the Catholic Church? Many!

It is interesting to note that the plural word "keys" only occurs in 2 verses of the Bible:

Genesis 1:1 (NKJV)
"keys" occurs 2 times in 2 verses in the NKJV.

Mat 16:19
“And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed[fn] in heaven.”

Rev 1:18
“I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen.
And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

While the singular word "key" is used 6 times, and 2 of those in relation to the "key of David", one of those is used in Revelation 3:7 concerning the assembly at "Philadelphia", which Christ does not bring a charge against. Fascinating!

Genesis 1:1 (NKJV)
"key"
occurs 6 times in 6 verses in the NKJV.

Isa 22:22
The key of the house of David I will lay on His shoulder;
So He shall open, and no one shall shut;
And He shall shut, and no one shall open.

Rev 3:7
“And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write, ‘These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”:[fn]

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series
Part 54
THE CHURCH IN PHILADELPHIA

“These things saith He that is holy, He that is true, He that hath the key of David, He that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth” (Rev. 3:7).

In the letter to the church at Philadelphia we find many of the same phrases that were penned to the other six churches, so we must look a little closer to see what the Lord is really saying. Philadelphia is a great church to study for so many wonderful things are said about this church! The Greek word for Philadelphia is Philadelphos and its meaning is “one who loves his brother.”

In fact, not one negative thing is said about the church in Philadelphia! We can benefit from the positive things said about a church, and we can also benefit from the negative things said about a church. The fact is, the word of God is filled with great commendations, and also with great corrections, and we can profit by both. The scriptures are replete with people’s mistakes and people’s successes. God has never made it a practice to hide His servant’s mistakes as the leaders of this world are wont to do.
Of the seven churches, two of them received no indictment from the Lord, nor were they told to repent. The church in Smyrna was known as the “suffering church” because of their severe persecutions, and they were not told to repent. .................

The key of David speaks of he who has the “key” or the “authority” and “dominion” of the king of Israel. The king of Israel is the king of God’s called and chosen people!
The people of Israel in the Old Testament experienced great and mighty things. God called them, chose them, and made them a great nation in the earth. The hand of God was upon them in favor and blessing so long as they loved, honored, obeyed, and served Him; but when they departed from the Lord and did wickedness, in faithfulness He judged and corrected them.

The true application of this “key of David” is to the government of Christ. In Christ God is bringing forth a new man, a new ministry, a new order, a new authority, a new rule and government that has concern, respect, and honor for the kingdom of God. A key is being cut and formed and prepared to administer the kingdom of God in all the earth!
Our Lord has that key on His shoulder, for the government is upon His shoulder (Isa. 9:6), and the shoulder is the point where the weight of the kingdom rests upon the body of Christ. Notice that God told Eliakim that He would lay the key of the house of David “upon his shoulder.” The Hebrew word translated shoulder in this verse indicates the area where burdens are placed.

 

[jaison jose]

Having the keys certainly does give one authority. If you read my posts, you would see I profess that. Do you understand that there are different keys in God's kingdom? Do you understand that Jesus listed exactly what authority was given in keys given? That authority was to "whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Jesus also gave the authority to forgive sins. Now read more than one verse in scripture to learn of others given the same authority.

There is no promotion of Peter to be above the other apostles in the one verse of scripture. Further Peter acknowledge himself to being just one shepherd of many all under Jesus, the Chief Shepherd.

see pope or leaders in the church are not like what you think a big authority(like a king or something)... but as paul said to be president to be deacon a good one from community and has given authority to take descion in several matters and matters of faith according to the church teachings...Peter was took alone from them and said those words of keys...to be a leader...offcourse their are other leaders of various churches but under pope....it is not like a normal person thing its like family everyone is equal in most of the matters no partiality full with love and faith but like father is head so...is leaders......

if chruch is Christ's body of course it should be one in faith.. and a oneness should exist...and should be one in Christ...as when disagreement started with the RCC there were more dissagrements in those churches which broke with RCC..started splitting into many more and more....you can see in history...so to be one in Christ we should all pray in one faith...

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

But with current usage of the words, there are multiple denominations in the Church.

but all still profess Jesus their Savior.

I cant agree that "all Christians" are IN the Church.
From our point of view, one can be Christian, professing a basic understanding, and not be IN the Church.

Again you wish to promote a nonstandard definition. You do so to get out of addressing the question.

From Google:
Christian, a person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings.

Would you care to address the question again. Try this instead of Christian, how about the elect or those that will be saved on judgement day.

If the Church is of all the elect, don't you say they can come from all different denominations of visible churches?

While I agree that there are no denominations within The Church.

I am just trying to get you to clarify this statement of yours.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Anticipate,

As for your #1. you answered it correctly with a Yes!

As for your #2. you answered it correctly with a Yes!

As for your #3. you answered it correctly with a Yes

As for your #4. here is where you go wrong! Yes, you do want to get into that red herring regarding Peter as the first Pope, thus why you posted this thread re: the belief of the Catholic Church founded on Rock.

"Did God institute the office of Papacy"? This debate came in the 15th century 1500 years later with the protestant reformation and sadly it continues today.Outside of His Church. Prior to the 15th century there was no debate re: the Papacy and that is proof to show that the Papacy is of Jesus Christ: You are Peter and on this Rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail over It!

You don't know church history if you think there was no debate about the Papacy until the Reformation. I love the story about one church's Pope excommunicating the other church's Pope. I think that happened before the 1500's which would be the 16th century for one speaking truth.

One way the satan TRY'S to prevail men, not the the Church is to make men believe that there is no Papacy in the one Church founded by Christ on Rock, and Many men have been lead astray / prevailed.

And yet again I have to teach a Catholic their own doctrine on what the Church represents, body of baptized believers. This includes Protestants.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

How can I trust who you say is head of the Church if you don't know who the Church is.

Anticipate, as you know Jesus did not come to destroy the Law or the Prophets but he came to fulfill them. Such as there was a Chair of Moses in the Old Testament, there is the Chair of Peter in the New Testament. Why a Chair in the Old Testament and continues a Chair in the New Testament? The Answer is, It is to bring His Law and Order in His Catholic Church.

It is pure assumption that there is to be a Chair in the NT. But as has been posted already, Jesus destroyed the old priesthood and replaced it with himself, evidenced by the destruction of the temple. You don't need a Pope for judging and maintaining law and order in the church. This is the job of the elders as discussed by St. Paul.

Jesus Christ knows best, without an Hierarchy there would be Chaos such as in the protestant churches, how many are there now to date? Each Protestant Church having their own pope, each having their own interpretations of Scripture, etc... One thing these Protestant churchessss have in common, is that they are against the One Church that Christ founded on Rock, and satan no doubt is loving it.

And yet, Jesus is still the head and shepherd of these churches and the Holy Spirit even works in them. I guess Jesus can handle what you label as Chaos.

Anticipate, you said: "There is no scripture recording Peter giving his "key" to another". Anticipate are you a man of little faith and need to see it written down in Scripture? John said it best: John 21: 25But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.

Do these other things not written divide the Church? Is there a tradition not written in scripture that is necessary for salvation? The whole point of the OP is to contrast what is clearly written with what is not. You seem to now agree it is not clearly shown in scripture. Jesus knew the future divide that would come because of this. If he wanted to save the Church a lot of grief he should have just stated it as clearly as the three other examples listed in the OP. I would say 99% of the Church agree to them.

Anticipate, you stated:"Further when Jesus gave a key to Peter, he also gave them to the other apostles and said there would be 12 thrones in heaven;". Anticipate, what you do not see or understand that Keys and thrones are two different things. And by the way it is KEYS, Not Key! Anticipate, see you are even wrong by saying KEY, and what other things are you are wrong about the Catholic Church? Many!

If you would have read all my posts in this thread you would not have made such an untrue statement about my understanding of keys and thrones. The keys given is authority while on earth. The throne is a reward given to them at the renewal. And yet no Catholic has even made an attempt to explain away Jesus words of a throne "at the renewal of all things". Further none has explained how they only have one throne chair in the Vatican.

This is how you know Jesus Christ, was only speaking to St. Peter and not to the rest: Matthew 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. Anticipate, did the Lord also says in Matthew 16:18 thou art John or thou art Matthew, or thou art Thomas, etc...??? The Answer is NOPE TO NONE OF THESE BUT TO St. Peter!!! One does not need to be a rocket scientist to understand that it was St. Peter, that Jesus Christ was referring to, to say other wise is just to be a PROTESTOR / Protestant.

What you fail to refute is that the same authority/keys were given to others. Again, I never stated that Peter was not important in the early church or that he had special authority. In fact I think he was very special. He had the power to heal all with his shadow. He had the authority to write down scripture. This has not been repeated in any Pope.