Did God institute High Priests, Baptism, Eucharist, Papacy?

[AnticipateHisComing]

they are successors not new thrones...successor of st.peter..

My question was does Jesus see the future? The twelve thrones are not earthly thrones. Jesus said at the renewal of all things, so we are talking either when they die and go to heaven or in the next age. Revelation would push me to think when they die because I would put them in with the 24 elders.

The point is that the throne/rule is not earthly. If all popes had the same power and authority as Peter, the first pope, then they should all be rewarded in heaven with a throne. We are not going to have 100 Popes sitting on the same throne in heaven.

twelve thrones are for twelve apostles

The twelve Apostles were hand-picked by Jesus to carry on His mission. The Apostles (meaning "one who is sent") were the first bishops of the Catholic Church. They were given authority and power by Jesus, including the power to heal and to forgive sins. Peter, the chief apostle, was given special authority, including the keys to the kingdom of Heaven (see Mt. 16:19). Christ built His Church on St. Peter (see Mt. 16:18), the first pope, and promised that it would withstand the gates of Hell. The Pope today can be traced directly back to St. Peter and the other Bishops of the Catholic Church descend directly from the other Apostles. In fact, one of the four marks of the Church is its Apostolicity. Scripture tells us that in the heavenly New Jerusalem "The wall of the city had twelve courses of stones as its foundation, on which were inscribed the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb [that is, Christ]." (Rv. 21:14)

All the apostles and even later, elders of churches were given the same keys to judge those in the Church. You do believe that priests have the power to forgive sins? Peter did not get any unique authority that the other apostles did not get.

Note that you should understand that your revelation quote only reinforces that concept that no one apostle was over the others. Further, successors to the 12 apostles do not get the same reward/recognition in heaven, so the inference is that they are not as special.

 

[David Kent]

In 1885, a former Catholic priest, Charles Chiniquy, wrote a book titled Fifty Years in the Church of Rome in which he made many scandalous allegations against the Catholic Church, including the accusation that the assassination of President Abraham Lincoln in 1865 had been the result of a conspiracy by the Catholic Church, and that the assassin John Wilkes Booth was a Catholic who had been corrupted and led by the Vatican to commit the murder.

Chiniquy, who had been excommunicated by the Catholic Church in 1858, claimed that "emissaries of the Pope" had promised Booth "a crown of glory in heaven" for the killing of Lincoln. According to Chiniquy, the assassination was perpetrated by the Church in revenge for Lincoln's defense of Chiniquy in a 1856 lawsuit...
...it gets worse

Chiniquy's writings are still widely distributed and promoted, in books and on webpages. The goal of this website is to provide factual information concerning Charles Chiniquy and his allegations against the Catholic Church...
WHO WAS CHARLES CHINIQUY: Facts Versus Falsehood on this anti-Catholic preacher

I believe his account is accurate. having read it, it fits in with RC actions throughout the ages.

Not only that but the RCC had a plot to kill the English king , and not only the king but the whole govt. It almost succeeded.

Then there is the worldwide child abuse by priests. Any other organisation that had members acting like that and covering it up would be banned.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

You demonstrate the wisdom of God very well.

You also demonstrate the wisdom of God very well. You show why God abolished the office of the High Priests, the establishment of one bureaucratic earthly organization to rule his Church as demonstrated by the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.

You show why He did not send a book of writings for us to follow,

You have it so backwards to put your church above God's word.
Let me ask another question that you can ignore like the previous one you did.
Which can you believe is true all the time?
1) Bible
2) Fill in the blank with anything you like, even your infallible Pope is not infallible, as in incapable of making mistakes.

but He sent a Church - one Church - one Spirit-led Church.

Do you understand that even your RCC acknowledges the one Church to not be the RCC but is an invisible church made up of even Protestants? You won't answer my question, but I will tell you that the Holy Spirit is involved in ALL Christian churches.

Writings (our Bible) can be misunderstood - they can be bent to suit the opinions of men, and history shows us all exactly that. All Christian heretics quote Scripture, and claim the Truth - but they all are as noise and bitter water.

So when one questions your interpretation of scripture your response is the heretic label. Christian heretics also quote their own words even more than scripture and claim the truth. More often than not, they take one text of scripture and twist it to give them some additional authority/power. Say what you want about Protestants, the Sola Scriptura camp does not expand their reach.

Thus He sent men guided by the (one) Spirit, who are led by the (one) Spirit "into all the Truth". With Peter as the (one) shepherd of all the sheep, including the other shepherds, to keep us all in the (one) Truth, in the (one) Church. And He will be with us - in the One - until the close of the age.

I have already shown you where Peter in scripture says there are multiple shepherds and that there is only one Chief Shepherd above them, Jesus. You would rather believe what a man taught you though.

Denominations, in their disunity, convict men of the error of their individualism, but so many will not listen. Including many Catholics! - who love their own opinions more than His Holy Truth.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Multiple denominations force different ideas to be discussed. Scripture prophesies that false teaching would come into the Church. You are naive to think that your church was pure for 1500 years before the Reformation. False teachings were in the early Church when even the apostles were living. Scripture says to test teachings against scripture though. Scripture also teaches that there is a benefit to divisions and differences in the Church.

1 Corinthians 11:18 In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. 19 No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval.

 

[fide]

You also demonstrate the wisdom of God very well. You show why God abolished the office of the High Priests, the establishment of one bureaucratic earthly organization to rule his Church as demonstrated by the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.

You have it so backwards to put your church above God's word.
Let me ask another question that you can ignore like the previous one you did.
Which can you believe is true all the time?
1) Bible
2) Fill in the blank with anything you like, even your infallible Pope is not infallible, as in incapable of making mistakes.
........

You have too many misconceptions to deal with now, but let me ask you your own question:

Which can you believe is true all the time?
1) Bible
2) Your interpretation and understanding of the Bible?

Since apart from your understanding of the Bible, all you have is a book of words, what IS the foundation of your faith? In personal opinion, there is no assurance of truth at all. In such a religion, one holds the position of pope for oneself, in the church of the self. That "religion" fits perfectly with the "all about me" religion of the modern West. And that "religion" is dreadfully shallow, and dangerously thin.

Jesus never instituted such a "religion", grounded on individual personal interpretation. He sent His Spirit to lead and guide all believers into all the Truth, in one Church of one Lord, one faith and one baptism - having one God and Father over all. One. One.

Second question: how many times is the word "denomination" found in Scripture? This word was created by men to make room for the multiplying opinions of "truth" following the so-called reformation.

 

[fide]

I think it would be a mistake to let professionals and councils do our thinking for us. As for the Holy Spirit, he is our teacher.

The Holy Spirit is, in truth, the teacher. The question for everyone who calls himself a Christian is, however, "Am I His student?"

How do you know - how can you know - that you are His student, following the lead of the Holy Spirit?

 

[dreadnought]

The Holy Spirit is, in truth, the teacher. The question for everyone who calls himself a Christian is, however, "Am I His student?"

How do you know - how can you know - that you are His student, following the lead of the Holy Spirit?

I might suggest right off the bat that the Lord gives us commandments to obey. Do we obey them?

 

[jaison jose]

My question was does Jesus see the future? The twelve thrones are not earthly thrones. Jesus said at the renewal of all things, so we are talking either when they die and go to heaven or in the next age. Revelation would push me to think when they die because I would put them in with the 24 elders.

The point is that the throne/rule is not earthly. If all popes had the same power and authority as Peter, the first pope, then they should all be rewarded in heaven with a throne. We are not going to have 100 Popes sitting on the same throne in heaven.

All the apostles and even later, elders of churches were given the same keys to judge those in the Church. You do believe that priests have the power to forgive sins? Peter did not get any unique authority that the other apostles did not get.

Note that you should understand that your revelation quote only reinforces that concept that no one apostle was over the others. Further, successors to the 12 apostles do not get the same reward/recognition in heaven, so the inference is that they are not as special.

popes are successors not replacing Peter but His throne

The Forgiveness of Sins | Catholic Answers

 

[fide]

I might suggest right off the bat that the Lord gives us commandments to obey. Do we obey them?

Christ gave us something much more than written "commandments to obey". God gave that to the Jews in their Covenant. In the New Covenant, Jesus came, taught and died, resurrected and ascended, in order to send a New Counselor to the New People of God - an Advocate who would be within, the Holy Spirit, in a mutual indwelling, bringing eternal and divine life into the souls of men.

 

[dreadnought]

Christ gave us something much more than written "commandments to obey". God gave that to the Jews in their Covenant. In the New Covenant, Jesus came, taught and died, resurrected and ascended, in order to send a New Counselor to the New People of God - an Advocate who would be within, the Holy Spirit, in a mutual indwelling, bringing eternal and divine life into the souls of men.

Jesus died for our sins. He showed us the way.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

popes are successors not replacing Peter but His throne

The Forgiveness of Sins | Catholic Answers

The throne of Peter. Are you hearing yourself?

Forgive me...

 

[jaison jose]

The throne of Peter. Are you hearing yourself?

Forgive me...

Origins of Peter as Pope | Catholic Answers

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

popes are successors not replacing Peter but His throne

The throne of Peter. Are you hearing yourself?

Forgive me...

Would be some tough shoes to fill..........

Mat 19:28
So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory,
you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Luk 22:30
“that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”
Rev 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them.
Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God,.......................

Chair of Saint Peter - Wikipedia

The Chair of Saint Peter (Latin: Cathedra Petri), also known as the Throne of Saint Peter, is a relic conserved in St. Peter's Basilica in Vatican City, the sovereign enclave of the Pope inside Rome, Italy. The relic is a wooden throne that tradition claims the Apostle Saint Peter, the leader of the Early Christians in Rome and first Pope, used as Bishop of Rome.........

Above, on the golden background of the frieze, is the Latin inscription: "O Pastor Ecclesiae, tu omnes Christi pascis agnos et oves" (O pastor of the Church, you feed all Christ's lambs and sheep). On the right is the same writing in Greek.[7] Behind the altar is placed Bernini's monument enclosing the wooden chair, both of which are seen as symbolic of the authority of the Bishop of Rome as Vicar of Christ and successor of Saint Peter.........................

I don't think they will be able to carry the Pope on the chair of Peter...........

.............

 

[W2L]

Would be some tough shoes to fill..........

Mat 19:28
So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory,
you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Luk 22:30
“that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”
Rev 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them.
Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God,.......................

Chair of Saint Peter - Wikipedia

The Chair of Saint Peter (Latin: Cathedra Petri), also known as the Throne of Saint Peter, is a relic conserved in St. Peter's Basilica in Vatican City, the sovereign enclave of the Pope inside Rome, Italy. The relic is a wooden throne that tradition claims the Apostle Saint Peter, the leader of the Early Christians in Rome and first Pope, used as Bishop of Rome.........

Above, on the golden background of the frieze, is the Latin inscription: "O Pastor Ecclesiae, tu omnes Christi pascis agnos et oves" (O pastor of the Church, you feed all Christ's lambs and sheep). On the right is the same writing in Greek.[7] Behind the altar is placed Bernini's monument enclosing the wooden chair, both of which are seen as symbolic of the authority of the Bishop of Rome as Vicar of Christ and successor of Saint Peter.........................

I don't think they will be able to carry the Pope on the chair of Peter...........

................................

I have a hard time seeing peter carried around on his throne.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I have a hard time seeing peter carried around on his throne.

Thats because he didnt. The throne is pure fiction. A fake.

Forgive me..

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Note that the priesthood has been changed under the New Covenant:

Hebrews 7:11 ¶If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Thanks for bringing that up. It is indeed a change.
The whole 7th chapter of Hebrews is devoted to Melchizedek, a person that is only mentioned 2 times in the OT and the other 9 times in Hebrews.
Reve 1:6 shows we are already Priests.....It is no longer just for Jews......Christian gentiles can now be Priests.......... "Supersessionism"
[LLoJ runs out to get some priestly robes]

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon
3346. metatithemi from 3326 and 5087; to transfer, i.e. (literally) transport, (by implication) exchange, (reflexively) change sides, or (figuratively) pervert:--carry over, change, remove, translate, turn.

Exo 19:6
and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.'
These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel.”[Revelation 1:6]

Hebrews 7:12
For being changed/translated/metatiqemenhV<3346> the Priesthood,
out of necessity also, of Law a change/metaqesiV <3331> is becoming,

Rev 1:6
and has appointed us as a kingdom, as priests serving His God and Father -
to Him be the glory and the power for ever and ever! Amen.

Kindgdom Bible Studies Royal Priesthood Part 17

One of the most intriguing descriptions of the unique character of the High Priesthood of Jesus is found in Heb. 7:17 wherein it is stated, "Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek." This one grand statement shows that Jesus is not like any of the other priests who the people of Israel knew so much about.
The entire seventh chapter of Hebrews is about THE MELCHIZEDEK CONNECTION, that is, it is about the way Jesus Christ, and thus, His body, the Royal Priesthood, is related to a strange man named Melchizedek. And the connection between Jesus Christ and Melchizedek is worth exploring. Let's take a look at the Melchizedek Connection

In Genesis, chapter fourteen, we have one of the most intriguing stories in the Bible, that of Abram's encounter with Melchizedek, king of Salem, and "the priest of the Most High God." In the Genesis story Melchizedek is a strange and mysterious figure. He flashes across the scene like a meteor.
There is no heralding of his appearance, nor any mention of its results. He arrives out of the blue; there is no account of his family; there is nothing about his birth, his descent, his life, his work, or his death. He simply arrives. We learn only that he was king of Salem and priest of the Most High God.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

popes are successors not replacing Peter but His throne

The Forgiveness of Sins | Catholic Answers

And you ignore the part where Jesus said "at the renewal of all things". Do you think you are living in the world where all things have been renewed? The throne is not earthly despite the Pope having his "chair".

You also ignore the concept of 12 thrones with none above the others.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

You have too many misconceptions to deal with now

We started out having a discussion and laying out our positions with quotes of scripture. When I showed you scripture where Peter himself acknowledges that Jesus is the Chief Shepherd, you went off about heretics. I can see you don't want to discuss scripture, just want the world to believe what you say is true because some man taught you so. I can see you believe your teacher over scripture. You have too many misconceptions for me to deal with.

but let me ask you your own question

Bible, without a doubt can always be trusted as true above all else.

Since apart from your understanding of the Bible, all you have is a book of words, what IS the foundation of your faith? In personal opinion, there is no assurance of truth at all. In such a religion, one holds the position of pope for oneself, in the church of the self. That "religion" fits perfectly with the "all about me" religion of the modern West. And that "religion" is dreadfully shallow, and dangerously thin.

Jesus never instituted such a "religion", grounded on individual personal interpretation. He sent His Spirit to lead and guide all believers into all the Truth, in one Church of one Lord, one faith and one baptism - having one God and Father over all. One. One.

As you wouldn't answer my question about the Holy Spirit working in Protestants, with what you just wrote, I would have to say you don't believe the Holy Spirit can work in anyone reading the Bible, RCC or Protestant. You must believe that only the clergy in the RCC have the Holy Spirit. Talk about me having too many misconceptions. You probably think Protestants aren't even saved since we are not members of the one true church.

Second question: how many times is the word "denomination" found in Scripture? This word was created by men to make room for the multiplying opinions of "truth" following the so-called reformation.

You didn't answer two of my questions and you expect me to answer you. I will only because it is so entertaining to point out how that when you think you have a gotcha moment to turn it around on you.

So here is your answer in the form of a riddle,
just as many times as pope appears in scripture.

But, actually church would suffice for denomination and does appear at the beginning of many of Paul's epistles and John's Revelation.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Thanks for bringing that up. It is indeed a change.
The whole 7th chapter of Hebrews is devoted to Melchizedek, a person that is only mentioned 2 times in the OT and the other 9 times in Hebrews.
Reve 1:6 shows we are already Priests.....It is no longer just for Jews......Christian gentiles can now be Priests.......... "Supersessionism"
[LLoJ runs out to get some priestly robes]

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon
3346. metatithemi from 3326 and 5087; to transfer, i.e. (literally) transport, (by implication) exchange, (reflexively) change sides, or (figuratively) pervert:--carry over, change, remove, translate, turn.

Exo 19:6
and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.'
These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel.”[Revelation 1:6]

Hebrews 7:12
For being changed/translated/metatiqemenhV<3346> the Priesthood,
out of necessity also, of Law a change/metaqesiV <3331> is becoming,

Rev 1:6
and has appointed us as a kingdom, as priests serving His God and Father -
to Him be the glory and the power for ever and ever! Amen.

Kindgdom Bible Studies Royal Priesthood Part 17

One of the most intriguing descriptions of the unique character of the High Priesthood of Jesus is found in Heb. 7:17 wherein it is stated, "Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek." This one grand statement shows that Jesus is not like any of the other priests who the people of Israel knew so much about.
The entire seventh chapter of Hebrews is about THE MELCHIZEDEK CONNECTION, that is, it is about the way Jesus Christ, and thus, His body, the Royal Priesthood, is related to a strange man named Melchizedek. And the connection between Jesus Christ and Melchizedek is worth exploring. Let's take a look at the Melchizedek Connection

In Genesis, chapter fourteen, we have one of the most intriguing stories in the Bible, that of Abram's encounter with Melchizedek, king of Salem, and "the priest of the Most High God." In the Genesis story Melchizedek is a strange and mysterious figure. He flashes across the scene like a meteor.
There is no heralding of his appearance, nor any mention of its results. He arrives out of the blue; there is no account of his family; there is nothing about his birth, his descent, his life, his work, or his death. He simply arrives. We learn only that he was king of Salem and priest of the Most High God.

The change was more than Jesus taking out the office of the royal priesthood of men. Jesus promised the Holy Spirit and Peter understood that the Holy Spirit would come not to just the apostles, but to all people and even women would prophesy.

Acts 2:17 “‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.​

Acts 2:18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.

Next, some churches stress the importance of their office and with the laying on of hands, or of baptism as the avenue for the Holy Spirit to come to people, but scripture records the Holy Spirit coming to people directly and even before being baptized.

Acts 10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.​

 

[Bible2+]

LittleLambofJesus said in post #255:

Exo 19:6
and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.'
These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel.”[Revelation 1:6]

Besides being connected with Revelation 1:6, note that the principle of Exodus 19:6 is applied even by Peter himself to the entire Church. For:

1 Peter 2:9 . . . ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

This is also referring to the Church as Israel, for it's quoting from Exodus 19:5b-6 and Hosea 2:23, which refer to Israel.

The Church is Israel because all Jews in the Church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all Gentiles in the Church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

LittleLambofJesus said in post #255:

In the Genesis story Melchizedek is a strange and mysterious figure.

Jesus Christ is high priest forever "after the order of" Melchisedec (Hebrews 6:20), because of Jesus' divine/human power of an endless life (Hebrews 7:16-17). Because Jesus is God (John 1:1,14), even as a human it wasn't possible for Him to remain dead (Acts 2:24).

Melchisedec himself could have been made in the same way Adam was made (Genesis 2:7), that is, miraculously by God, without any human father or mother (Hebrews 7:3). And so, like Adam, Melchisedec can be a human. And Jesus, even though He's both God and a human (John 1:1,14), can receive the Melchisedechian high priesthood (Hebrews 6:20) just as Jesus can receive the human throne of King David (Luke 1:32).

Regarding Melchisedec's "endless life" (Hebrews 7:3,15-16), it can be he never fell into sin, and so never became mortal, just as Adam was immortal before he fell into sin (Genesis 2:17). And because Melchisedec wasn't descended from Adam, he had no original sin either (Romans 5:19a).

But how can Melchisedec have "neither beginning of days" if he was created like Adam? In the same way Jesus eternally pre-existed His incarnation (John 1:1,14)? And if Melchisedec eternally pre-existed his incarnation, how can he be only "like" the Son of God (Hebrews 7:3)? It can be Melchisedec is a distinct incarnation of God, besides Jesus, yet one who wasn't born like Jesus was.

 

[fide]

.....
But, actually church would suffice for denomination and does appear at the beginning of many of Paul's epistles and John's Revelation.

I'll respond to this one issue. If you could get this point right, all else would fall into place for you, and all your defenses would fall before your eyes like a house of cards.

No, "Church" is far different from "Denomination." Human "philosophy" (a misnomer right away), in the school of "nominalism", confused things with the names of things. From my computer dictionary, "Nominalism": the doctrine that universals or general ideas are mere names without any corresponding reality, and that only particular objects exist..."

Listening to that brief definition, perhaps you can see how protestantism - philosophically embracing nominalism - confused the universal meaning of "church" with "particular ecclesial groups of Christians." And hence, there exist only "particular ecclesial groups of Christians" - which (why not!) can have different "names" or "denominations" such as Lutheran, Calvinists, etc, different "churches" named differently merely to distinguish non-"essential" differences.

However, the essential of the word "Church" had already been destroyed by the differences, which destroyed the essential significance of the one and only "church" that Jesus formed and sent as His witnesses to the darkened and fallen world.

"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it." (Mt 16:18)​

Note the singular: ONE Church, not "churches". Note the possessive: MY Church.

How many Christs are there? (answer: one.) How many Churches are there? (answer: one).

How many opinionated men are there, all reading the same Bible and all sure that their interpretations are right? (answer: many). Hence, how many versions are there, of "church" among men who believe not in "Church" but in "Denominations"? (answer: shamefully, very many.)

How many "churches" does Jesus want? (answer: one)

Please pray over this following passage, friend. Seek the heart of Jesus in this matter! He will show you the Truth, if you seek Truth will all your heart, no matter the cost!

Jn 17:19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.
Jn 17:20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,
Jn 17:21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Jn 17:22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,...​