Did God determine his own nature?

Did God determine his own nature

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Neal of Zebulun

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He is very glorious indeed, seeing we can't even find the words to describe Him, not even after all these millennia!

In Scripture, we find that attributes of Yahweh and Christ are called unsearchable in:

Job 5:9
Psalms 145:3
Romans 11:33
Ephesians 3:8​

But we're also told to seek Yahweh, and things related to Him in many more passages. I've made just a short list:

1 Chronicles 28:8-9
Psalms 105:3-4
Isaiah 55:6-7
Amos 5:8
Matthew 7:7-8
Luke 12:29-31
John 7:18
Acts of the Apostles 17:27-28
Colossians 3:1
Hebrews 11:6​

I think it's interesting that He encourages us to seek Him even though He's unsearchable.

I hope these verses help.

Keep on seeking Yahweh!
 
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thesunisout

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Most would agree that God's nature is eternal and unchanging. Did God choose his nature or is it determined by some factor outside himself?

I would say none of the above. If God is eternal He has always existed and there was nothing preceding Him to influence Him. He has always been perfect and didn't become perfect.

Our minds want to think in temporal terms and apply it to eternity, but there are no beginnings and endings in eternity. I suspect we don't know the right questions, and lack the right vocabulary to ask them.
 
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Everybodyknows

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I assume what you are asking is whether all of God's attributes are necessary, right?
I guess I kind of made that assumption. I never thought about only some attributes being necessary and others voluntary.

I had to think about this one for a little while and, as I was reviewing a list of God's attributes, I came to the conclusion that all of the attributes that are "of the essence" of God, are necessary. This would include His being immutable, eternal, omniscience, omnipotent, and so forth. These are the attributes that make God, God. But, there are those attributes of God which are not "of the essence", which may not be necessary. One example of these non-essentials is the three persons of the Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Ghost). Now, I do believe that the Trinity is eternal, but it is not necessary to God's essence (nature).

I think that His being merciful could also be a nonessential attribute. There could be more. :scratch:
By what manner have you come to the conclusion of which attributes are necessary? And what makes the necessary attributes necessary? Would you consider omnibenevolence to be a necessary attribute?

I suppose we should define what we mean by necessity. Perhaps something along the lines of it being logically impossible for God to exist in any other conceivable manner.
 
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Marvin Knox

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............. Did God choose his nature or is it determined by some factor outside himself?
Then there must be some factor external to God that determined his existence and nature. What is it?
There is no "factor outside of Himself". Never has been and never will be.

In the beginning the Word was with God and the Word was God.

Since the "time" when all things created were spoken out of nothing by His Word - all things so created have had their "being" in the Word of God - Who Himself is God.

Unless the question posed in your OP is meant rhetorically and only to stimulate conversation about the nature of God - it shows a rather abysmal lack of understanding concerning the aseity, immutability, and omnipresence of God.
 
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disciple1

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Most would agree that God's nature is eternal and unchanging. Did God choose his nature or is it determined by some factor outside himself?
John chapter 1 verse 3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.


How could anything be determined by something outside of God.
 
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Everybodyknows

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There is no "factor outside of Himself". Never has been and never will be.
The factors that determine his nature are either within himself our outside of himself. If there is no factor outside of himself that means God must determine his nature from within himself.

In the beginning the Word was with God and the Word was God.

Since the "time" when all things created were spoken out of nothing by His Word - all things so created have had their "being" in the Word of God - Who Himself is God.
I'm talking about the nature of God apart from creation.

Unless the question posed in your OP is meant rhetorically and only to stimulate conversation about the nature of God
Yes. Some deliberately contradictory statements to get people thinking. Obviously God couldn't choose his nature of he exists eternally/timelessly and is immutable. The question then arises why is his nature what it is?

- it shows a rather abysmal lack of understanding concerning the aseity, immutability, and omnipresence of God.
Aseity implies that the reason for God's nature and existence is within himself. God is self determining yet not by choice but by necessity. But then necessity implies some kind of principle outside of God's control. Immutability also pouts God's nature outside of his control - he cannot change.
 
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Marvin Knox

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The factors that determine his nature are either within himself our outside of himself. If there is no factor outside of himself that means God must determine his nature from within himself.
There is no "outside of Himself". God is omnipresent.

God does not determine His nature any more than you determine yours. His nature determines His nature.

His actions are another matter entirely. Those - He does determine and even those determinations are according to His unalterable and indivisible eternal attributes.

Are you perhaps referring to the nature of the creation? That - God has determined.
I'm talking about the nature of God apart from creation.
I know.

That's what makes the questions so theologically ridiculous.

He is what He is - to paraphrase what He has designated His name to be. He is immutable.

God is not finite. He is infinite. He fills the heavens and the earth. God's nature within the creation is the same as outside of the creation.

He always has and always will possess the same attributes He now possesses. That is true whether He is operating as the omnipresent, providentially controlling creator and sustainer of the universe or just within His eternal nature.
The question then arises why is his nature what it is?
Because He is God.

His name says it all.

He is what He is.
Aseity implies that the reason for God's nature and existence is within himself. God is self determining yet not by choice but by necessity.
Exactly.
But then necessity implies some kind of principle outside of God's control. Immutability also pouts God's nature outside of his control - he cannot change.
It implies some kind of principle within the nature of God and not outside of Himself. He does not control His nature and cannot control it. He cannot change. He is the same yesterday today and forever.

As He plainly tells us, He is what He is.

There are many things which God cannot do as He has told us plainly in the scriptures. Determining His eternal nature is but one of the many things He cannot do.

Since you have said that the OP was only posed rhetorically - I'm wondering why you continue asking it as if you do not know the answer.

If it is to stimulate discussion by those who perhaps don't understand these things - that would be understandable.

But then I don't know why you are addressing me since I do understand the answers.

It seems to me that you should, instead, just be agreeing with me.:)
 
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Drifter Kybe Scythe Kane

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heck he can work quickly in other ways. i mean maybe there is something greater than one infinite. already he has acquired one eternal self and for who knows how many suitable eternal things. why not other things as well-you know?? though the super demon lucifer hound us mercilessly to not question these things so we don't go on trying to understand god.

good question Everybodyknows.
 
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Everybodyknows

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God IS. He has no need to look within or without Himself. He has no needs. He does not wonder or wander. He does not communicate within or without Himself. There is nothing for Him to "do." He IS.
Why is he as he is?
 
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God is not an expression of a nature; God is His nature. God could be no other way than what He is, because there is nothing better, greater, or higher either in reality or in potential than what God is. If there were a factor outside of God, greater than God, then God is no longer God and that "something else" is God. As such "God is that than which nothing greater can exist" (St. Anselm), those qualities of God are unchanging, immutable, not from a source apart from God, but are innate to God's own eternal, unsourced, uncaused, immutable Being and Self. Uncaused, unmoved, without beginning, without end, God qua God.

-CryptoLutheran
Most would agree that God's nature is eternal and unchanging. Did God choose his nature or is it determined by some factor outside himself?
In ways that defy all comprehension, the Divine Persons precede the Divine Nature, otherwise the Holy Trinity is no longer the Personal God of the Christians, but is the god whose essence is "determined". This becomes the god of the philosophers rather than the Personal God of revelation (i.e. the Am Who Am).

This is an interesting question, and it is a primary point of divergence between Eastern Christian Trinitarian theology and that of the Western dogmatic tradition regarding the Trinity.
 
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Hieronymus

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Interesting but unanswerable question.
Speculating about what God is like in eternity makes it sound like He is a bit of a helpless being who just "is" and never changes.
Sounds pretty boring...
But then He decided to create beings to marvel at his Awesomeness.. Hmmm...
I doubt eternity is an ever lasting status quo.
But i don't know.
I guess we'll find out eventually.
It'll probably totally blow our minds. :)
 
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Everybodyknows

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God does not determine His nature any more than you determine yours. His nature determines His nature.
I find these two sentences contradictory. God is synonymous with his nature, his essence is who he is, his person is the sum of his attributes. Saying 'his nature determined his nature' is tautological, and no different to saying God determined his nature. Yet you say 'good does not determine his nature'. I don't determine my own nature because there are external factors that did. With God there are no external factors so it's not a useful analogy. Do you think his nature is something apart from himself?

His actions are another matter entirely. Those - He does determine and even those determinations are according to His unalterable and indivisible eternal attributes.

Are you perhaps referring to the nature of the creation? That - God has determined.
I'm asking about his attributes apart from his actions. I understand his actions are voluntary, but his attributes are not.

That's what makes the questions so theologically ridiculous.
Why is it ridiculous to ask about his nature apart from his acts?

He is what He is - to paraphrase what He has designated His name to be. He is immutable.
Designating is an act. Did he designate what he himself is to be? What is the difference between him and his name?

God is not finite. He is infinite. He fills the heavens and the earth. God's nature within the creation is the same as outside of the creation.

He always has and always will possess the same attributes He now possesses. That is true whether He is operating as the omnipresent, providentially controlling creator and sustainer of the universe or just within His eternal nature.
Agree

Since you have said that the OP was only posed rhetorically - I'm wondering why you continue asking it as if you do not know the answer.

If it is to stimulate discussion by those who perhaps don't understand these things - that would be understandable.
The question is sincere and serious. I phrase the question to present a contradiction to which I do not know the answer. It's to preferably stimulate conversation with people who know more than me about these things

It seems to me that you should, instead, just be agreeing with me.:)
Aww, you always tell me I should just agree with you :)
 
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Everybodyknows

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In ways that defy all comprehension, the Divine Persons precede the Divine Nature, otherwise the Holy Trinity is no longer the Personal God of the Christians, but is the god whose essence is "determined". This becomes the god of the philosophers rather than the Personal God of revelation (i.e. the Am Who Am).

This is an interesting question, and it is a primary point of divergence between Eastern Christian Trinitarian theology and that of the Western dogmatic tradition regarding the Trinity.
Thank you.

What is the meaning of the divine persons preceding the divine nature?

I'm not familiar with the eastern view, what are the primary differences?
 
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Everybodyknows

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Interesting but unanswerable question.
Speculating about what God is like in eternity makes it sound like He is a bit of a helpless being who just "is" and never changes.
Sounds pretty boring...
But then He decided to create beings to marvel at his Awesomeness.. Hmmm...
I doubt eternity is an ever lasting status quo.
But i don't know.
Well he tells us he is who he is and that he doesn't change (in nature at least). His acts are voluntary and contingent on his nature. His nature is not voluntary and is not contingent on his acts. E.g. His acts must be in accordance with his goodness but he acts of his own volition, he is not compelled to act.

I guess we'll find out eventually.
It'll probably totally blow our minds. :)
Look forward to it! :)
 
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Devin P

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So if his nature is eternally unchanging he can't have chosen it?
Eh, I mean, it's not really a question that we have the ability to answer. To answer it, is to assume that you know how God works, which is impossible. It doesn't matter how much of the word you know by heart, or understand, we'll never know just how God works, unless (when we're with Him) He decides to tell us Himself.

It's an awesome question, and it's cool to think about, but the idea that He didn't choose what He's like, is to say that something outside of Himself chose His nature, which is impossible. He's eternal, but He's outside of time, so He's more than just eternal. He literally created time as we know it, so eternity isn't anything to Him, He created eternity. Time, is nothing to Him, because it too, is His creation, meaning that He isn't determined, or controlled by it, so it'd really be impossible to answer the question. It's interesting though for sure, just to think about it.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Thank you.

What is the meaning of the divine persons preceding the divine nature?

I'm not familiar with the eastern view, what are the primary differences?

I may be speaking out of turn, but based on what I understand of the East/West distinction in regard to how the Trinity is approached; the West tends to begin by asserting the Divine Nature, and then explaining how the the Three share of the One Divine Nature; the East instead begins by speaking of the Persons, and then speaking on the Nature of the Three as One.

The Eastern Churches will tend to focus on the Father, and it is the Son and Spirit's sharing in the Father's own Deity in which they are One and of One Being. Whereas the Western Churches tend to instead speak of the One Being and how Father, Son, and Holy Spirit share of the One Being.

In the Western tradition it makes sense to speak of the Divine Nature in the abstract, and then to discuss how the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit share of that one divine, indivisible Nature/Being/Essence; while in the East it makes sense to instead speak of the Father, and how the Son's eternal generation and the Spirit's eternal procession from the Father makes them of the same Essence as the Father. Thus in the East the Divine Essence is never an abstraction that can be located outside of the Divine Persons; Deity is not defined as an abstract concept of which the Three participate in, there is only the Divine Persons, and the Divine Nature is always and wholly innate. The Father is God, therefore the Son and the Spirit are also God; "Deity" properly belongs to the Father, it is all that He is, everything He is, and it is because the Son has His eternal origin of the Father, that the Son is all which the Father is; and likewise the Spirit who has His eternal procession from the Father is all which the Father is. And it is this, the fact of being God, that is the Divine Nature.

Again, I may be misunderstanding something--but based on my own reading(s) on the subject that's more or less as I've understood it.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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