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Featured Did God create dragons?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Nathan98, Sep 7, 2017.

  1. pat34lee

    pat34lee Messianic

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    I don't think it's the miracles that people don't want to see.
    It's the creator part.
     
  2. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    what did a "dragon" in the 1st century look like? Did it look anything like a dragon in the middle ages? Was it considered a mythical creature?

    I'm not sure where you're going with the insects and flies. If God didn't create it then who did? Gen 1:25 "And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that creeps on the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good."
     
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Well, the creation itself is a lot like a miracle. The many perfect life conditions for the Earth, etc. I think folks may want to believe in the standard miracles because it may benefit them. But the miracles of creation do not benefit them. In fact, they see the miracles of creation as a means of people possibly laughing at them if they were to believe in them. At least that is one possible explanation, anyways. But I have been laughed at before for standing up for what is good and right. I am not going to back down now. My faith is in the Word of God; And I am not ashamed of His Word.
     
  4. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    no

    and?

    and?

     
  5. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    The point is that the Leviathan is just as much an animal as the other animals because they are listed alongside each other. God did not change into talking about mythological creatures. That wouldn't make any sense.
     
  6. Hal A Peno

    Hal A Peno Well-Known Member

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    zdfh
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  7. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Prophecy is not true until it happens. Leviathan is a description of a real dragon alongside other regular normal animals in Job 41. Verse 34 (Job 41:34) is in reference to either beasts or men in how it is merely a proud creature and it is the king of pride above all. Look at the various translations here at Bible hub. So this verse is not talking metaphorically. The whole chapter is speaking literally. Granted, literal things can be in reference to future prophecy in the Bible, but it is best to stick with prophecy that truly matters like the end times events in Revelation and the Lord's 2nd coming. For how does it really help you in your walk with Christ and in spreading the good news of Him by telling them about this prophecy? We are told to pray for our enemies and to love them, and bless them and do good unto them.
     
  8. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    uh huh.

    And? Did I say the Leviathan was a mythological creature? Uh, no I didn't.

    And? Did I say anything about the Leviathan doesn't make sense? Uh, no I didn't.

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  9. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Sorry. There are so many here who deny that the Leviathan is a real creature, it is hard to see the who believes in it and who doesn't. By your push that this is a some kind of prophecy today (Which I do not agree with), I was thinking you were trying to ignore the reality of this creature. So you are saying Leviathan is a real creature? That this creature literally breathes fire, has impenetrable scales, flies, and goes in water, and has sharp teeth, etc.?
     
  10. Jadis40

    Jadis40 Senior Member

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    That's just the thing - Leviathan is not a real creature. Not a fire breathing flying creature, anyway. Those are just figments of man's imagination. Whales and crocodiles and elephants are real though, which could be what those verses are referring to. I can concede ground on that, but not some mythical creature.

    Dragons are not and have never been real. Dinosaurs were real though. But a dinosaur can't be a dragon because man and dinosaurs never lived on the planet at the same time.

    So, no, I don't believe that there's going to be some literal dragon sweeping down from the sky at some point. That's best left to fantasy authors and the makers of Skyrim. Alduin isn't real, thankfully.
     
  11. Hal A Peno

    Hal A Peno Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  12. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    But the Leviathan is described alongside these other animals. It appears like you just can't believe this creature could have existed or still may exist so you are just ignoring the text here. People ignore a literal (24 hour) six day creation week. It does not mean they are right.
     
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Yet, something has to be real in order to make a spiritual representation out of it. Psalms 74:14 is speaking metaphorically by way of comparing to real creatures.

    Also, Psalms 74:1 says "the sheep." But are we to assume that this is one sheep or many sheep because the singular is used? Psalms 74:13 says,

    "Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength: thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters." (Psalms 74:13).

    It says that you break the heads of the dragons (plural).
    It continues to say that it breaks the heads of leviathan. No word "the" is present before the word "Leviathan" suggesting it is not just one beast in existence. This makes it even more obvious that this is like the word "sheep" which can be used in reference to many of them.

    "Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness." (Psalms 74:14).

    But something has to be real in order to make a spiritual comparison or a relation to something else. God's Word does not compare it's metaphors to fictional creatures on the moon or anything.
     
  14. toLiJC

    toLiJC Senior Member

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    the "darkness" and its manifestations(the unsouled evil spirits including the so-called "satan"/"sin", "beast", "death", etc.) are not created by the true God - they are indefinitely existing/present just as God and the souls are indefinitely existing/present - remember that the first things God created were the "heaven" and the "earth" and there was already "darkness" and "waters" in the universe before He created any of the rest of the things He created (Genesis 1:1-2)

    Blessings
     
  15. Monk Brendan

    Monk Brendan Well-Known Member Supporter

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    How is anything at all on this earth that has NOT been created by God. As little as I like flies, God gave them a particular niche to fill, to carry away solid waste, etc. They are unlovely, and I would be lying if I said I loved them, but they do have a purpose.

    The same is true with all the creatures you mentioned. Dragons are the stuff of legends. It MAY be that dragons existed in the past. The reason I say this is that all cultures have a "dragon" in their legends. It may be that several species of dragon existed in the past, and that our cultural unconscious keeps such things alive.
     
  16. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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  17. Hal A Peno

    Hal A Peno Well-Known Member

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    fdy
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  18. SBC

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    Yes.

    Yes fire can literally come forth out of a creatures nostrils.
    The how is by what he eats, and the gases of decomposition formed which are flammable.


    What I believe is:
    God created ALL animals -

    Animals - are of different KINDS, some require AIR, some don't. Some can FLY, some don't. Some ONLY exist in WATER. Some ONLY exist on DRY LAND. Some do both.

    Job 40

    [15] Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.
    [16] Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.
    [17] He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.
    [18] His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.
    [19] He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.
    [20] Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play.
    [21] He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens.
    [22] The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about.
    [23] Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth.
    [24] He taketh it with his eyes: his nose pierceth through snares.

    Job 41

    Job.41
    [1] Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?
    [2] Canst thou put an hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn?
    [3] Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee?
    [4] Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?
    [5] Wilt thou play with him as with a bird? or wilt thou bind him for thy maidens?
    [6] Shall the companions make a banquet of him? shall they part him among the merchants?
    [7] Canst thou fill his skin with barbed iron? or his head with fish spears?
    [8] Lay thine hand upon him, remember the battle, do no more.
    [9] Behold, the hope of him is in vain: shall not one be cast down even at the sight of him?
    [10] None is so fierce that dare stir him up: who then is able to stand before me?
    [11] Who hath prevented me, that I should repay him? whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine.
    [12] I will not conceal his parts, nor his power, nor his comely proportion.
    [13] Who can discover the face of his garment? or who can come to him with his double bridle?
    [14] Who can open the doors of his face? his teeth are terrible round about.
    [15] His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal.
    [16] One is so near to another, that no air can come between them.
    [17] They are joined one to another, they stick together, that they cannot be sundered.
    [18] By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning.
    [19] Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out.
    [20] Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron.
    [21] His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.
    [22] In his neck remaineth strength, and sorrow is turned into joy before him.
    [23] The flakes of his flesh are joined together: they are firm in themselves; they cannot be moved.
    [24] His heart is as firm as a stone; yea, as hard as a piece of the nether millstone.
    [25] When he raiseth up himself, the mighty are afraid: by reason of breakings they purify themselves.
    [26] The sword of him that layeth at him cannot hold: the spear, the dart, nor the habergeon.
    [27] He esteemeth iron as straw, and brass as rotten wood.
    [28] The arrow cannot make him flee: slingstones are turned with him into stubble.
    [29] Darts are counted as stubble: he laugheth at the shaking of a spear.
    [30] Sharp stones are under him: he spreadeth sharp pointed things upon the mire.
    [31] He maketh the deep to boil like a pot: he maketh the sea like a pot of ointment.
    [32] He maketh a path to shine after him; one would think the deep to be hoary.
    [33] Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear.
    [34] He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.

    Mankind - In a boat on the sea, on land, near a water's edge or high on the mountains; COULD OBSERVE THE HUGE BEASTS - and a man could SEE that a man is dwarfed in comparing a mans SIZE and a mans POWER to such BEASTS, (regardless if on sea, land or high mountains).

    The description IS ABOUT POWER. POWER of something greater than mankind and the POWER of That something, that mankind CAN NOT overcome with mankinds POWER.

    The POWER of such BEASTS is what IS compared to the POWER of Satan -
    Satan's POWER is greater than mankind, regardless, if man is on land, sea, high in the mountains.
    Satan's POWER is so GREAT, that mankind CAN NOT overcome Satan's POWER.

    However ALL POWER comes from God.
    And while Satan's has been given great Power over the Earth & Seas ie the World;

    Gods POWER "in a man" ie the Holy Spirit, IS the ONLY POWER that can KEEP mankind FROM Satan's great Power.

    And the urgent message IS;
    Currently while a man is living upon the earth; he can RECEIVE Gods Holy Spirit.
    And in the future The giving of Gods POWER (HS) will cease.
    And in the future The POWER "left" on Earth will be that of Satan, which will over take,
    men left on earth -

    And THEN God will clean up the mess, of all upon and within the earth that has stood against Him.

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  19. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    A "HEAD" is the "TOP SUPREME POWER" over anything thing else that has power within the "structure".

    Meaning, for example - (the structure)
    A HEAD of a household - IS ONE TOP POWER "of that structure" - even though other members may also hold some power.
    or
    A HEAD of a government - IS ONE TOP POWER "of that structure" - even though other members of the counsel, or cabinet may also hold some power.

    God is the HEAD - TOP SUPREME POWER - "of EVERYTHING" and thus ANYTHING under Him is still subordinate to Gods SUPREME POWER - And nothing under God HAS POWER, except which POWER comes from God.

    When God removes His POWER from a "thing" the "thing" is power-LESS.

    ISIS to date has tallied about 4300 deaths (2013 to present) from cell instigated attacks. While they are a web of thorns spread out in several parts of the world, and caused physical destruction to structures and caused injury's, their body count is not worldly major.

    ISIS - intent - to become a ISLAMIC State of Iraq AND Syria -
    .........conducted BY militant Iraqis and Syrians....and those who chose to join them.
    ISIL - proclaimed - 2014 their ISLAMIC Statehood -
    .........and continue BY Militant Iraqis', Syrians, and those who choose to join them.
    .........to plan, stage, effect attacks on nations and her people's of those who oppose them.

    They are basically a "disorganized" / "organized" coo.
    Disorganized to pin point them - and organized in secrecy through networks.

    I would not point to them as a great power beast of prophecy. But more like a gnat.

    The power beasts of prophecy IMO shall be a joining of earthly powerheads - subjecting themselves

    to ONE Powerhead - of Government - what I would liken more to the EU or the UN, but at some point coming into agreement to ONE WORLD POWER -
    that will be overtaken by Satan (in the fashion of a man) and he will assume the seat of world power over mankind.

    and ONE Powerhead - of Religion - what I would liken to more to Isalm or Christianity.
    Which currently Christianity is slightly higher in converts - but expect that to change - and the WORLD Powerhead of religion to become ISLAM.

    The Powerheads - ie Governments enjoined, religion in the major, Headed by Satan, and the False Prohpet - is what will be crushed, IMO.

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Then we are close to being on the same page then.
    I believe the Leviathan is a real creature, too.
    So Job 41 is speaking literally of a real beast.

    If Job 41 was speaking metaphorically, then it would be referencing the devil only in this chapter, and there is no indication in the text that such is the case.

    Now, does the Bible refer to the Leviathan in a metaphorical way? Yes.
    But I believe this is only in Isaiah 27:1.
    This would be in reference to Satan in general.

    Here is the context.

    Isa 26:20 "Go home, my people, and lock your doors! Hide yourselves for a little while until the LORD’s anger has passed.
    Isa 26:21 Look! The LORD is coming from heaven to punish the people of the earth for their sins. The earth will no longer hide those who have been killed. They will be brought out for all to see." (Isaiah 26:20-21) (NLT).​

    This is a time of the Tribulation and Christ's 2nd coming whereby He will punish the people of their Earth for their sins. This is where we then see Jesus will punish the spiritual entity known as Satan (Leviathan), the dragon of the sea from this Earth (by casting him into the bottomless pit - See Revelation 20:2-3); Which is then followed by the promise of the killing of the dragon of the sea (satan) by casting him into the Lake of Fire (where he will be eventually be destroyed and be no more - See Revelation 20:10, Ezekiel 28:18-19, Isaiah 14:19).

    Isa 27:1 "In that day the LORD will take his terrible, swift sword and punish Leviathan, the swiftly moving serpent, the coiling, writhing serpent. He will kill the dragon of the sea." (Isaiah 27:1) (NLT).​

    But if you were to read the whole chapters of Job 41, Psalms 74, and Psalms 104 in the New Living Translation (NLT), you will see that it is merely a mention of the actual physical real creature and it is not speaking prophetically but literally (of a real dragon). Only in Isaiah 27 is the Leviathan spoken of in a prophetic or metaphorical way as being compared to the devil.

    As far as ISIS: They are just one small cog in the machine as a part of the devil's plans. The antichrist is the real person to watch out for if one misses out on the Pre-Trib Rapture. Jesus says we are to love our enemies and to do good unto them, etc. This would include even terrorists who are seeking to kill Christians like ourselves. We have to love them even while they may be killing us.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2017
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