• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

Did Enoch and Elijah go to Heaven?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by funtimes, Jan 15, 2013.

  1. funtimes

    funtimes Member

    128
    +5
    Non-Denom
    Single
    The Bible says that "Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" (2 Kings 2:11), "Enoch was translated that he should not see death" (Hebrews 11:5), and "God took him" (Genesis 5:24), and Moses appeared in the transfiguration with Jesus (Matthew 17:3). Do these scriptures prove that the three were in heaven (the throne of God) before Jesus was sent to Earth in the flesh?
    John 3:13, "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."
    These words were spoken by Jesus himself at a time when only Christ had seen God (John 1:18). And how did He know that no man had ascended up to heaven...the throne of God? Because he came from there! Therefore, what heaven did Elijah go to? What about Enoch and Moses?

    This has been the perplexing problem to so many. He did not ascend to the throne of God, because Jesus said so! Also, notice in 2 Kings 3 and 5 that the sons of the prophets knew Elijah would be taken away by God in advance. They believed that Elijah was going to be taken to another location, which is why they were fearful that the Spirit of God might have dropped him "upon some mountain, or into some valley" (2 Kings 2:16). Elisha knew that God would preserve Elijah from falling, but at their insistence he permitted men to go in search for him, to no avail. And God did not say that Elijah was to die at that time. If he were, Elisha could have assumed his new office without the removal of Elijah, for we know that Elisha died in office after fulfilling his duty (2 Kings 13:14).

    The new king of Israel was another son of Ahab, Jehoram, or Joram as he is sometimes called. The beginning of his reign marked the year of his removal of Elijah (2 Kings 1:18 and 3:1). During this king's reign, Elisha was the recognized prophet of God (2 Kings 3:11). In the fifth year of Joram king of Israel, the son of the king of Judah began to reign along with his father in Judah (2 Kings 8:16). His name also was Jehoram. The first thing he did to establish his kingdom rule was to put his relatives to the sword lest they should claim the throne from him (2 Chronicles 21:4). For nearly six years he followed the ways of the nations about him and did evil in the sight of God.

    Almost ten years had now expired since Elijah was taken from the people. After this wicked rule by the Jewish king, God chose Elijah to write a letter and have it sent to the king! The contents of the letter are found in 2 Chronicles 21:12-15. From the wording of this letter, it is clear that Elijah wrote it after these events had occurred, for he speaks of them as past events, and of the diseases as future, Two years after the king became diseased the king died, having reigned only eight short years (2 Chronicles 21:18-20).

    This proves that the letter was written about ten years after Elijah had been taken to another location by the whirlwind. God used Elijah to convey the message because he was the prophet of God in the days of the present king's father, and the son was not going in the ways of his obedient father, Jehosophat. This letter proves that he was alive someplace else. The Bible does not reveal how much longer Elijah lived after writing the letter, but it does say that it is appointed for all men to die once (Romans 5:12,14, 1 Corinthians 15:20-23, Hebrews 9:27).

    A similar incident to Elijah's took place in Acts 8:39,40. Phillip was caught up into the first heaven, as Elijah was, and was transported to another location approximately 30 miles away. Another similar incident happened to Ezekiel, in which the spirit took him away (Ezekiel 3:12). The spirit lifted him up "between the earth and the heaven" and brought him "to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate" (Ezekiel 8:3). Afterwards, the spirit took him up to Chaldea (Ezekiel 11:24).

    Elijah may not have been found because he was transported further away than the fifty men searched (2 Kings 2:17). And, as far as being taken into heaven where God's throne is, we can know that neither Elijah nor Enoch nor Moses were taken into God's heavenly abode, because Jesus said, while he was on this earth, that "no man hath ascendeth to heaven" (John 3:13), and "No man hath seen God at any time" (John 1:18).

    And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him" and compare the same Hebrew phrase in:

    Psalms 37:36, "Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found."
    Psalms 39:13, "O spare me, that I may recover strength, before I go hence, and be no more."

    The Hebrew for the phrases in bold are the same Hebrew as Genesis 5:24. As in the Psalms, the phrase means the person "passed away" or would eventually die. Let’s look at the same phrase in the book of Genesis:

    Genesis 42:13, "And they said, Thy servants are twelve brethren, the sons of one man in the land of Canaan; and, behold, the youngest is this day with our father, and one is not." This was spoken by his brothers of Joseph. What’d they mean by "is not"?
    Genesis 44:20, "And we said unto my lord, We have a father, an old man, and a child of his old age, a little one; and his brother is dead, and he alone is left of his mother, and his father loveth him." Here, the brothers recount their previous discussion about Joseph with Pharaoh. When they first said, "and one is not," they meant Joseph "is dead."

    Matthew 2:18, "In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not." Where were Rachel's children? Dead.

    Hebrews 11:5, "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him:" Does the phrase that says Enoch "should not see death" mean Enoch never died? Hebrews 11:13, "These all died [including Enoch] in faith." But not only that, verse 13 goes on to say that they did not receive the promises. One of the promises was a heavenly country (verse 16). If Enoch were in heaven, wouldn't he have received that promise?

    Psalms 89:48, "What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah." Why would this Psalmist ask such a question concerning physical death if he believed Enoch did not see a physical death? The fact is, the Psalmist believed Enoch was in the grave and therefore asked this question.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Ripheus27

    Ripheus27 Holeless fox

    +68
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Single
    Or the claim attributed to Jesus contradicts some claims about Enoch, and some claims about Enoch contradict each other. Or maybe Enoch was Jesus? Why does the text say "even the Son of man which is in heaven" (emphasis added) if the Son was on Earth at the time?
     
  3. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

    +5,033
    Christian Seeker
    Single
    That is a general statement. What happened to Enoch is one-in-a-billion chance that the case of Enoch is nearly irrelevant to the Truth, save for extremely special situations.

    Does knowing that few persons out of billions that ever lived will not die bring you any closer to the truth?

    John 21:22
    Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” 23 Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?”

    Jesus can choose someone not to die if He wanted to but also mentioned it is irrelevant.

    In the same manner, what happened to Enoch is irrelevant what matters is always: doing the Will of God. The only reason it seems to matter is due to our nature to give so much meaning and important to life and death... But to Jesus and any follower, even life and death is meaningless only the Will of God matters.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2013
  4. funtimes

    funtimes Member

    128
    +5
    Non-Denom
    Single
    Elijah like Moses was removed as a Prophet by God because he lost his faith. With pride he said he was the last prophet, God told him He had 7,000 more. Then God replaced him. 1 Kings 19:1-18

    After Jehoram succeeded his father Jehoshaphat as king of Judah, "he did that which was evil in the sight of Yahweh" (2 Chron. 21:6 ). [So what else is new?] As a result, "a letter came to him from Elijah the prophet" (v:12 ) telling him that because he had not "walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat," he would be afflicted with a disease of the bowels so severe that his bowels would fall out "day by day" (v:15 )...
    The only problem is that the parallel story of Elijah and Jehoram in 2 Kings claims that Elijah died during the reign of Jehoshaphat before Jehoram succeeded to the throne. Well, of course, Elijah didn't die. He was "translated" into heaven in a "chariot of fire" (2 Kings 2:11-13 ), but the point is that the biblical account of Elijah's departure from this life occurred in the reign of Jehoshaphat....
    All of this being true, how did Elijah write a letter to Jehoram after he had succeeded Jehoshaphat? The only possible explanation would have to be that dead men who can tell no tales can nevertheless write letters.
     
  5. barryrob

    barryrob Junior Member

    821
    +11
    Jehovahs Witness
    Married
    Something to think on.

    Acts 2:34
    Actually David did not ascend to the heavens,. . .

    As King David did not go to Heaven and he ws a faithful man how could anyone else??

    rob​
     
  6. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

    +5,033
    Christian Seeker
    Single
    No one comes to the Father but through Jesus. David was many things non conforming to the teachings of Jesus.
     
  7. Evergreen48

    Evergreen48 Senior Member

    +65
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Republican
    The story of Enoch was another embellishment of Moses' in order that he might prophesy the manner in which our Lord would depart this earth. Gen. 5:24 could just as well read, "And Jesus walked with God and he was not, for God took him.", and it would have the same meaning.

    If we had not sinned and had 'walked with God' as Jesus did, we would not have to die a physical death either, but we would leave this earth in the same manner as Jesus did.
     
  8. gasman64

    gasman64 Newbie

    499
    +8
    Non-Denom
    Single
    no, they both died.
     
  9. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,614
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    The Greek verbs for ascend and descend. Literally mean walk up and walk down. They indicate an act something does under its own power.

    No one has walked up to Heaven, but he who has walked down from heaven. Even the son of man who is in heaven.

    Enoch and Elijah were taken. But they didn't reach heaven on their own?
     
  10. Rubiks

    Rubiks proud libtard

    +2,182
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    There are some scholars who take John 3:13 as having an exception clause to mean Elijah was the pre-incarnate Jesus, a rather interesting proposal.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2019
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  11. Rubiks

    Rubiks proud libtard

    +2,182
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    double post
     
Loading...