Did Christians kill Red Indians in America?

rjs330

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The world minus the US would be a different world.

Honestly, the US started off pretty much as expected ... and she has matured into a force for good, though not perfectly good. A penchant for forward moral progress has made this possible.

If we forsake moral progress, we're done ...

If we forsake God we are done. And this nation is forsaking God, yes the Christian God, and we are on our way out. This nation is becoming anti-Christ and we see it every day. All we have to do is read Romans 1 and we see what this nation is doing.
 
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rjs330

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This nation was not the first to come here and grow. The Spaniards, the Mexicans and the French all held land in North America that they took from the Indians. We often purchased and traded from these countries in order to expand. America did nothing different from any other nation on this planet. Which is establishing it boundaries. Sometimes natives and people's fought against them and lost the battles. The Indians that wanted to hold their lands lost the battles.

The Indians had wars against each other before that. Taking land, slaves and killing one another. Just like everyone else in this planet. The Indians were not some noble race any more than any other people's. They were fallen, wicked and evil just like everyone else who does not follow Christ.

The Indians were not just some innocent natives each tribe minding their own business living in perfect harmony and peace until the big bad white Europeans came over and took their land.

Yes we conquered them in the end. And instead of the Spaniards, French and Mexicans governing them, the western Europeans did (among others from another nations).

God apparently declared the time of the Indians in North America was over.

Did the US do everything right? Of course not. No nation does, because no nation is ever governed by completely Godly men. America is no worse than any other nation. In fact, over all it has been better. Because it has offered freedom like never seen before.

But America is turning it's back on God, and is now under his wrath.
 
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RDKirk

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If we forsake God we are done. And this nation is forsaking God, yes the Christian God, and we are on our way out. This nation is becoming anti-Christ and we see it every day. All we have to do is read Romans 1 and we see what this nation is doing.


Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey -- Romans 6

The United States of America has always been an anti-Christ, as all earthly nations are anti-Christs. To whatever extent any nation demands loyalty and obedience, that nation is an anti-Christ. That would include the United States, from its very inception.

And as well, to the extent that a nation practices behavior in conflict with the Sermon on the Mount, and encourages its citizens to do so as well, it is an anti-Christ. That would also include the United States, from its very inception.

The disturbing and dismaying thing in your post is your "we." The problem is Christians in America identifying "American" as their "we" instead of Christians as their "we." You're speaking as though you don't know where your real home is and who your true kinsmen are.

But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God -- 1 Peter 2.

This is Peter's "team speech." He starts out telling these Christians that they are aliens in the earthly places they were first born, and then ends with defining exactly where their new born-again citizenship lies.

Peter is not talking about any earthly nation. He's talking about the kingdom of Heaven.
 
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Thomas White

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If we forsake God we are done. And this nation is forsaking God, yes the Christian God, and we are on our way out. This nation is becoming anti-Christ and we see it every day. All we have to do is read Romans 1 and we see what this nation is doing.

The United States is not a Christian nation. The two most powerful countries other than the US are not Christian nations. There won't be a Christian nation until Christ sets up His kingdom.
 
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rjs330

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The United States is not a Christian nation. The two most powerful countries other than the US are not Christian nations. There won't be a Christian nation until Christ sets up His kingdom.

No it's not a Christian nation in the sense it's a theocracy. You are right. But we also are forsaking God and turning away from him. Romans 1 shows what happens when people do. God judges us and he us judging the US.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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The United States is not a Christian nation. The two most powerful countries other than the US are not Christian nations. There won't be a Christian nation until Christ sets up His kingdom.

Right, it's not a theocracy.

Nonetheless, it was founded on Judeo/Christian beliefs and the concept of individual freedom first came to the USA, then eventually Western Europe.

Regardless of what you believe, we today have never had it better and things could be far worse.

All you have to do is look around the world and see how bad things could be had you been born there instead of here.

What we have didn't just happen. The founding fathers, especially the signers of the Declaration of Independence like Jefferson and Adams, didn't have to. They were already wealthy aristocrats who
were politically in bed with the British. They could've just gone back home and lived their lives. Instead, they believed in something and wrote it down in the Declaration of Independence. As soon as they signed the document, they were wanted for treason and if caught would've been hung.

Sure, the nation wasn't perfect, but it evolved and hopefully is still evolving for the good.

Unfortunately from what I see, we're devolving and will lose the liberty we have. How long that will take and what the process will be, I'm not sure. I probably won't be alive to see it, or too old to do anything about it anyway.
 
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A_Thinker

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Unfortunately from what I see, we're devolving and will lose the liberty we have. How long that will take and what the process will be, I'm not sure. I probably won't be alive to see it, or too old to do anything about it anyway.
How can you tell that the nation is devolving ?
 
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JimR-OCDS

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How can you tell that the nation is devolving ?

First to go is freedom of speech, then freedom of religion and freedom of association.

Laws are being made to force people to speak a certain way
To make religions conform to the laws the government is putting in place
Making people associate with people they would chose not to.
 
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mark46

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This nation was not the first to come here and grow. The Spaniards, the Mexicans and the French all held land in North America that they took from the Indians. We often purchased and traded from these countries in order to expand. America did nothing different from any other nation on this planet. Which is establishing it boundaries. Sometimes natives and people's fought against them and lost the battles. The Indians that wanted to hold their lands lost the battles.

The Indians had wars against each other before that. Taking land, slaves and killing one another. Just like everyone else in this planet. The Indians were not some noble race any more than any other people's. They were fallen, wicked and evil just like everyone else who does not follow Christ.

The Indians were not just some innocent natives each tribe minding their own business living in perfect harmony and peace until the big bad white Europeans came over and took their land.

Yes we conquered them in the end. And instead of the Spaniards, French and Mexicans governing them, the western Europeans did (among others from another nations).

God apparently declared the time of the Indians in North America was over.

Did the US do everything right? Of course not. No nation does, because no nation is ever governed by completely Godly men. America is no worse than any other nation. In fact, over all it has been better. Because it has offered freedom like never seen before.

But America is turning it's back on God, and is now under his wrath.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Apart from meeting the friendly tribes, the aggression of the fierce would have been beyond the strength of an early Christian settler to handle and overcome with love. They would need more than the gifts of the Spirit for that. But God wants us strong.
 
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A_Thinker

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Apart from meeting the friendly tribes, the aggression of the fierce would have been beyond the strength of an early Christian settler to handle and overcome with love. They would need more than the gifts of the Spirit for that. But God wants us strong.
"‘Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’ says the Lord." Zechariah 4:6

Matthew 5

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.
 
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mark46

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There is little question (then and now apparently) that most colonists thought that the "Indians" were inferior and stood in the way of the God-given right of Christians to conquer the US and destroy the indigenous cultures. And yes, this attitude included Spanish colonists. The French were somewhat an exception since it seemed that they had working relationships with the various tribes.

The Iroquois had a well developed confederation, system of laws and a bicameral legislature. The Cherokee, more than any, tried to assimilate into white culture. The response was massacre.

I agree that this attitude toward conquering land was not new to American settlers. Christians had been doing this for millennia.

With regard to the necessity of war against American indigenous peoples, different Christian have different standards for when war is just.

As an aside, European disease was the main weapon against the locals.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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"‘Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’ says the Lord." Zechariah 4:6

Matthew 5

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.

Jesus teaching had to do with the individual's response. In that time, a person who was insulted
or offended, could seek compensation by getting into a duel with the offender. The slap on the cheek was the challenge to that person. The general response was to accept the challenge. Jesus instead said, turn the other cheek. In other words, do not duel.

Jesus did not instruct us to stand by and watch our wives and children tortured to death. If we can fight off an aggressor to save them, we have a moral obligation to do so. The justification for the use of violence can only be made in defense of others and only after other nonviolent means are attempted.

Also, we must weigh whether or not we can stop the aggression. Early Christians had no chance against the Roman army and many more would've have died trying to fight them. The Jews learned that lesson in 70AD when they tried to drive the Roman army out of Israel.
 
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mark46

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As you know, the Church has a standard of what constitutes a "just war".

Jesus teaching had to do with the individual's response. In that time, a person who was insulted
or offended, could seek compensation by getting into a duel with the offender. The slap on the cheek was the challenge to that person. The general response was to accept the challenge. Jesus instead said, turn the other cheek. In other words, do not duel.

Jesus did not instruct us to stand by and watch our wives and children tortured to death. If we can fight off an aggressor to save them, we have a moral obligation to do so. The justification for the use of violence can only be made in defense of others and only after other nonviolent means are attempted.

Also, we must weigh whether or not we can stop the aggression. Early Christians had no chance against the Roman army and many more would've have died trying to fight them. The Jews learned that lesson in 70AD when they tried to drive the Roman army out of Israel.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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As you know, the Church has a standard of what constitutes a "just war".

Correct, and WWII was considered a just war, the war in Iraq was not.

BTW, the Just War Theory isn't an infallible doctrine.

However, it doesn't negate the moral responsibility in protecting the innocent when they're
under attack. No one would morally correct to standby and watch their wife and children be tortured to death.
 
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mark46

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Correct, and WWII was considered a just war, the war in Iraq was not.

BTW, the Just War Theory isn't an infallible doctrine.

However, it doesn't negate the moral responsibility in protecting the innocent when they're
under attack. No one would morally correct to standby and watch their wife and children be tortured to death.

I agree with all your comments.

One issue here is which of the many European wars/conquests against indigenous Americans were just wars.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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I agree with all your comments.

One issue here is which of the many European wars/conquests against indigenous Americans were just wars.

I don't know of any. The French Jesuits never used violence against the indigenous, despite being tortured to death themselves.

The Spanish like Cortez, didn't follow Church teaching on most things and were at odds with
the missionaries that traveled to the New World with them.

As it was, after Columbus discovered the New World, the Pope Paul III issued a Papal Bull, Sublimis Deus, prohibiting enslavement or harm to the indigenous people. But the Spanish and Portuguese leaders like many of today's Catholic Politicians, ignored the directive.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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I read that long time ago, the Red Indians were massacred by the immigrants from Europe, many of them are Christians, they justified their deed by saying that Red Indians are devil.
I think the old world Christians were led astray by certain leaders. They were tricked into killing so called witches, they may not have been educated. They may not have been born again, or ever really understood love. Some peoples love to hate. They always have to have someone to hate. Jews and pogroms, Catholics versus Protestants. Punishing homosexuals and adulterers. Adultery not punished by law before homosexuals were released from liability. Terrorists and paedophiles and pederasts, geeks, Spanish and gypsies, Africans...

The native Americans would have practised what was considered witchcraft and married young, and would have allowed just maybe, pederasty. They may have raided settlements and taken wives and girls. Not sure. Settlers would fight to get them back, in possies.

The native people needed waves of missionaries and education. Some were wisely friendly, I have heard of the Navajo. Maybe some friendly tribes were badly treated anyway.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Just think what would have happened to the world when the 20th century came and the U.S.A. had never came to be to influence the outcomes.
The remaining native Americans at least got to defend themselves against the Nazis in WW2.
 
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A_Thinker

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Jesus did not instruct us to stand by and watch our wives and children tortured to death. If we can fight off an aggressor to save them, we have a moral obligation to do so. The justification for the use of violence can only be made in defense of others and only after other nonviolent means are attempted.
That really wasn't what we were addressing. We were addressing the conquering of the Native American peoples to take their lands and their subsequent oppression.

Even in the doctored history we learned in school, the Native Americans, largely, were not seen as a threat even to Europeans settling into their lands. Thanksgiving was taught as a shared first harvest celebration where the Natives has taught the settlers how to grow the food crops that they needed ... after the settlers had suffered a brutalizing winter which had taken many of their lives.

We were also taught the Natives had no concept of personal property ... and so, were not opposed to the settlers being in their midst.

Quite obviously, after the colonial forces began to push the Natives out of these previously "shared" areas, ... they began to fight to stay. And they were brutally slaughtered.

That the Natives committed their own atrocities is not typically questioned. Every group of peoples has their offenders and offenses. What is being defended is the understanding that the Natives had worked out a shared existence between themselves in the Americas ... which they were willing to extend to European settlers, ... but instead their living and their way of life was ultimately destroyed.

One should note that while the American natives had their clashes with one another from time to time, ... so did the Europeans. It is Europeans which fought the the two great wars ... and ultimately brought the world to the brink of self-annihilation ...
 
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