Did Christ die the second death for us

[reddogs]

I had never heard of this from any Adventist pulpit or preacher, but some people say Christ died the second death because the second death (the one after the 1000 years) is the penalty for sin...

Has anyone heard of this, and can anyone expand on why/where this belief comes from...


Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Absolutely!

It is appointed ONCE for man to die, even Christians.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

The second death has no power over Christ's people.

 

[sentipente]

I had never heard of this from any Adventist pulpit or preacher, but some people say Christ died the second death because the second death (the one after the 1000 years) is the penalty for sin...

Did you say you have never heard this from an Adventist preacher? It is no wonder you have questions about me. You have been sitting at the feet of some strange Adventist teachers. This is standard Adventist teaching that Christ died the second death.

 

[Cribstyl]

I have always understood that the second death is only for those who will be thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:6


12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Id like to see anything to support that reasoning as well.

CRIB

 

[DarylFawcett]

Isn't the second death the final penalty for sin for those who reject Christ's forgiveness of sin?

 

[Cribstyl]

Isn't the second death the final penalty for sin for those who reject Christ's forgiveness of sin?

It sure is.........Rev 20:1 The whole chapter explains about the second death.

Another understanding of the second death is that it is "spiritual death" which is eternal seperation from God.

(I know that Senti AND SOME OTHERS may not agree, but I'm just a messenger.)


CRIB

 

[sentipente]

Another understanding of the second death is that it is "spiritual death" which is eternal seperation from God.

(I know that Senti AND SOME OTHERS may not agree, but I'm just a messenger.)


CRIB

Why do you think I may not agree?

 

[Cribstyl]

Why do you think I may not agree?

Pardon me if you do friend....Somehow I thought you did'nt believe these scriptures were the inspired word of God, but rather someones personal intepretation of it.....but I could be wrong. :o:o Or maybe it's just Paul's account you dont agree with

Sorry If I'm off tract, please correct me
CRIB

 

[sentipente]

Pardon me if you do friend....Somehow I thought you did'nt believe these scriptures were the inspired word of God, but rather someones personal intepretation of it.....but I could be wrong. :o:o Or maybe it's just Paul's account you dont agree with

CRIB

I guess we see what we want to see.

 

[Pythons]

The 1st death is the "Particular Judgment" and the second death is the completion of the General Judgment. A saved person is not subject to the second death.

if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment

As T&O stated

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment

 

[Cribstyl]

I guess we see what we want to see.

Senti, I remebered something you said here #60 about the fate of all people who are lost.

This goes beyond belief. I know what justice demands and what the bible also teaches. ALL were lost through Adam and ALL were saved or rescued through the second Adam. Believe it or not, ALL means ALL.

Care to clarify what you meant?


CRIB

 

[oldsage]

If Jesus never came died and rose again, how many deaths will there be? 1 or 2?

 

[sentipente]

Senti, I remebered something you said here #60 about the fate of all people who are lost.



Care to clarify what you meant?


CRIB

It means exactly what I said. All were lost and all were saved. If I have to be individually saved it cannot be justice to tell me that I was not individually lost.

 

[AzA]

The church discussed this December 22-29, 2007. Review the SS Lesson for that week, Christ in the Crucible. It drew from the gospels, from the Apostle Paul, and two chapters in The Desire of Ages.

But you don't need the lesson to see the logic, which is fairly simple. Humans are mortal, all humans die, and Christ's first coming did not change that. Christians have never argued that He saved us from mortality, and so there is only the second death left for him to save us from. If one believes He did not experience and conquer the second death, one has to then explain where you derive your hope of escaping it and what is it He did experience and conquer.

The Bible says He provided reconciliation and atonement and that He conquered death, hell, and the grave. Paul and John tell us that those are the enemies of humankind that, having been gutted by a victorious Christ, are consumed at last.

 

[Cribstyl]

It means exactly what I said. All were lost and all were saved. If I have to be individually saved it cannot be justice to tell me that I was not individually lost.

Huh???...............I'm not sure we're talking about the same issue
All will not be saved Senti, it's not about justice, it's about what God has spoken, it must come to pass or He is not God.

Rom 11:14If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.

1Cr 9:22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all [men], that I might by all means save some.


Rev 20:15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The word teaches that some wont be saved that's why I agreed with Elder Fawcett 100% wheh he said.

Isn't the second death the final penalty for sin for those who reject Christ's forgiveness of sin?

And Rev 20 shows that the dead were raised for this judgement

Rev 20:12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

...................................................................................................

But you did not say that the second death is not spiritual death so I may be wrong

Senti do you believe that any person will die the second death?

CRIB

 

[Cribstyl]

The church discussed this December 22-29, 2007. Review the SS Lesson for that week, Christ in the Crucible. It drew from the gospels, from the Apostle Paul, and two chapters in The Desire of Ages.

But you don't need the lesson to see the logic, which is fairly simple. Humans are mortal, all humans die, and Christ's first coming did not change that. Christians have never argued that He saved us from mortality, and so there is only the second death left for him to save us from. If one believes He did not experience and conquer the second death, one has to then explain where you derive your hope of escaping it and what is it He did experience and conquer.

The Bible says He provided reconciliation and atonement and that He conquered death, hell, and the grave. Paul and John tell us that those are the enemies of humankind that, having been gutted by a victorious Christ, are consumed at last.

Thank you for trying to explain...........
http://ssnet.org/qrtrly/eng/07d/less13.html

I cant see where that discussion takes place in these lessons.
What day???
Can you please give text reference

CRIB

 

[AzA]

Take a closer look at Tuesday through Friday, review the Biblical references, and the linked chapters of DA...

 

[AzA]

(FYI -- I would have linked to the PDF version but am still too new to link here. Might be a little while before I'm allowed.)

 

[Pythons]

The church discussed this December 22-29, 2007. Review the SS Lesson for that week, Christ in the Crucible. It drew from the gospels, from the Apostle Paul, and two chapters in The Desire of Ages.

But you don't need the lesson to see the logic, which is fairly simple. Humans are mortal, all humans die, and Christ's first coming did not change that.

I would like to address this,

Now a man named Lazarus was sick. He was from Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. This Mary, whose brother Lazarus now lay sick, was the same one who poured perfume on the Lord and wiped his feet with her hair. So the sisters sent word to Jesus, "Lord, the one you love is sick."

When he heard this, Jesus said, "This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God's glory so that God's Son may be glorified through it."Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. Yet when he heard that Lazarus was sick, he stayed where he was two more days.

Jesus says 'Lazarus sickness WILL NOT END IN DEATH'.

After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."


His disciples replied, "Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better." Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.
So then he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead, and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him."

Jesus tells the disciples Lazarus is 'sleeping'. A person who is sleeping can be 'woke up' and according to Christ Himself Lazarus' sickness would not restult in death. It's like Jesus is saying, "Hey dullards, I'm God and this person isn't dead because he believed in me".

The disciples view of death was the common Jewish one that Lazarus would have went to the Bosom of Abraham to await the Resurrection, it was called "paradise". No one would see Lazaras unless they died and went to paradise. Jesus even goes on to say,

On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. Bethany was less than two miles from Jerusalem, and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother. When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home.


"Lord," Martha said to Jesus, "if you had been here, my brother would not have died. But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask."

Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again."

Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Again, Martha states the common belief held by the disciples (i.e. that Lazarus is in paradise AKA Abraham's Bosom awaiting the Resurrection. Jesus goes on to correct her and everyone else.

Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. "Take away the stone," he said. "But, Lord," said Martha, the sister of the dead man, "by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days."


Then Jesus said, "Did I not tell you that if you believed, you would see the glory of God?"

So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, "Father, I thank you that you have heard me. I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me."
When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!" The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.

Jesus said to them, "Take off the grave clothes and let him go."

The above is the 1st death on which Sacred Scripture states,

Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?"

Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Christians have never argued that He saved us from mortality, and so there is only the second death left for him to save us from. If one believes He did not experience and conquer the second death, one has to then explain where you derive your hope of escaping it and what is it He did experience and conquer.

I mean no offense when I say this is possibly the most offensive thing I've ever heard. Saying that "Christ experienced the second death" is saying that the second death had power over Christ which Biblically forces one to affirm Christ failed the General Judgment and also that Christ isn't God. Where have I read this before?

The Bible says He provided reconciliation and atonement and that He conquered death, hell, and the grave. Paul and John tell us that those are the enemies of humankind that, having been gutted by a victorious Christ, are consumed at last.

Christ conquered death by His Resurrection and as God was able to forgive sins prior to His death and Resurrection. At death, Christ drops the theif off in paradise then crosses the great gulf into hell and preaches the Gospel to those who died previous to the Incarnation. Jesus did not suffer the second death.

 

[AzA]

Hey Pythons,

I understand you come to this question with very different premises about human nature, mortality, sin, and salvation/atonement theory than I or traditional Adventists hold. That may help to explain why what I said has offended you.

It seems you've been active in this section a while, so you may be aware that most Adventists hold that only God is immortal; that humans are all mortal and subject to death; that death is an sleep-like state in which one is unaware of knowledge, time, events; and that the saved dead will be raised to receive the gift of life "at the last day." Those beliefs affect the Adventist interpretation of John 11, which you've cited.

From that perspective, an Adventist would agree with you that Lazarus was "asleep" because that is the language Jesus used; he/she would also affirm that Lazarus was dead as a stone -- Jesus stayed 2 extra days after having heard about his sick friend, and then on hearing that he'd died, Jesus saw that his disciples were confused by his language and for their sake "spoke plainly" about the situation: "And after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead." (v 11-14) By the time Jesus got to Bethany, Lazarus was four-days dead (v 17) ... long enough for his sister to be worried about how the decomposing corpse would smell. (v 39)

For our purposes, the simple point is that Lazarus died. That section of his story didn't end there, no -- just like it didn't end for the boy that Elisha raised, or the widow's son in Nain, or Jairus' daughter, or Eutychus, or Dorcas. There's no indication in any of those stories that any of the resurrected people were endowed with immortality and so never subsequently died. Not even Matthew confirms that the crowd resurrected when Jesus died didn't die again, and while there are various traditions about what happened to them, those traditions are conjecture. (Again, I understand your premises take you in a different direction.)

But the issue that we've put on the table in this thread is that man is mortal, and so man dies at least once. I agree with you that the death Lazarus faced and was raised from is the first death. Men died before Christ; men still die after Christ; and as such our conclusion is that His ministry here did not eliminate the first death. Had that been his goal or his work, I would not still have funerals to go to. Neither would you.

And so that leaves the second death. All men will fall to the first death and all men will at the last day be raised and judged -- Peter said that even David was dead and still in his Jerusalem tomb after Christ -- but not all men will fall to the second death. Paul's reasoning is that Jesus' work accomplished a great reversal: Since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead; for as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (1 Corinthians 15) Paul, a believer, still died the first death. Though post-Christ, not even he escaped that. The only death left on the table for him to escape was the second death, and he expected that because of Jesus, he would.

Again, though, we differ on premises. If I thought that Christ's death undermined his God-ness but His resurrection proved it, I might be in a spot of trouble here. But I don't think the Bible sustains such a position. I'm by no means forced to allege that He was not righteous -- Bible's clear that He was without sin, and yet God made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us. Though falsely accused and wrongfully convicted, He failed no judgment; in truth He aced the judgment and demonstrated the breadth of God's love and righteousness. I do not have to question whether He is God -- Bible's clear that He is, ever was, and will be.

Blessings and peace to you, bro.