Did Christ at the cross end all the laws?

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SabbathBlessings

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You again misrepresent in a very condescending way.

Non Jewish Christians do indeed recognize the authority of God especially as expressed through the personification of the New Covenant, Jesus the Christ.

John 10:27-30
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
Not trying to be condescending, just honest. To me, the words saying you obey "not to murder" as something random or coincidence, instead of giving Glory to God for ALL things, including His laws that He personally wrote, seems disrespectful.

His sheep hear His voice so when Jesus says, If you love Me, keep My commandments, His sheep obey.

There are not two salvations- one for the Jews one for Gentiles, there is only one. The New Covenant promise was not made with Gentiles, but if you are in Christ, you are grafted into the promise of the New Covenant. In the New Covenant God writes His laws in our hearts and minds Hebrews 8:10 and we should also obey out of love as it is a fruit of a saved person. God bless.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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To me, the words saying you obey "not to murder" as something random or coincidence,
"Random" is your interpretation.

"Coincidence" is alignment between a well formed moral conscience in the love of Christ and some of the laws of Jewish Torah.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I understand where you are coming from but I believe you are not accounting for the fact that it is entirely coherent for God to retire the 10 commandments just at the time that He gifts us with a Spirit that enables us to understand that murder and adultery are wrong without needing to consult an external written code.

And this is precisely what Paul declares to be the case here:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

This is what Paul means by being released from the law

Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

We are released from the penalty of the law (the wages of sin is death) because of the sacrifice of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins and sanctification. We all have to stand before Jesus on judgement day based on our actions 2 Corinthians 5:10 and will all be judged on the Ten Commandments James 2:10-12. If we stand before Jesus 100% keeping the law (walking in the Spirit- the new way) we won't be guilty before God. This is what Paul is saying. We are given the Spirit to obey the commandments John 14:15-18 and is given when we obey Acts 5:32. In the New Covenant Jesus is our High Priest and we can go directly to Him when we repent and for the forgiveness of sins. The point of scripture even in the Old Testament is to have a changed heart. Thats why the law is written in the heart. We don't obey because its a commandment, we obey because its a fruit of a saved person. When you turn thoughts of hate and anger to thoughts of love and compassion, you won't be murdering your neighbor. This is what Paul is talking about being released from the law, if walking in the Spirit. You are not obeying by the letter, you are obeying by the Spirit and in doing so the letter is kept and you're doing it because you have a changed heart.

When we have a changed heart, we will want to be baptized into Christ which symbolic to forget our life of sin and walk in obedience in Spirit. Acts 2:38
 
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SabbathBlessings

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"Random" is your interpretation.

"Coincidence" is alignment between a well formed moral conscience in the love of Christ and some of the laws of Jewish Torah.

Thou shalt not murder is written by the finger of God. Exodus 20:13 and included when God wrote His laws in our hearts and minds in the New Covenant. Hebrews 8:10

Matthew 5: 21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’
 
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Leaf473

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Practically speaking, we may be arguing about nothing of consequence since non Jews, do coincidently, keep the Jewish 10 commandments though we might interpret them in a more relevant way for our time and place in salvation history. And are we not pretty much just talking about the 10? Though the dietary laws were just mentioned they do not seem to be as controversial. Or are they?
Seems reasonable to me. But it turns out that for some of our Christian brothers and sisters the idea of interpreting the ten commandments "in a more relevant way for our time and place in salvation history" is a really big issue.

I go through the posts one at a time, so I'm interested in seeing how your question about the dietary laws is responded to.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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Random coincidence- same thing.
You want to argue definitions now?

Ok, let's see

Random - made, done, happening, or chosen without method or conscious decision.

Coincident - occurring together in space or time, in agreement or harmony.

You think they mean the same thing?
 
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Leaf473

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Scripture tells us something different:

Isaiah 44:24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
And He who formed you from the womb:
“I am the Lord, who makes all things,
Who stretches out the heavens all alone,
Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;

So it's not a "coincidence" that murder is still a sin in the New Testament because God, the Creator of all things, including the Ten Commandments written by His own finger writes His law in our hearts and minds in the New Covenant Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:10. So to not recognize the Authority of God and the Creator of all things including His law- I wonder how God's feels when people remove His authority and just say it's a coincidence. Maybe something to pray about. God bless.
I believe you are misunderstanding the way @Akita Suggagaki and I used the word "coincidence".

I don't throw litter on the street. It's probably against the law in Canada to do that. But I don't not do it because it is a law in Canada.

It is coincidentally a law in Canada.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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Seems reasonable to me. But it turns out that for some of our Christian brothers and sisters the idea of interpreting the ten commandments "in a more relevant way for our time and place in salvation history" is a really big issue.

I go through the posts one at a time, so I'm interested in seeing how your question about the dietary laws is responded to.
Yes, I would like to see where they believe I am disrespecting God's authority.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I believe you are misunderstanding the way @Akita Suggagaki and I used the word "coincidence".

I don't throw litter on the street. It's probably against the law in Canada to do that. But I don't not do it because it is a law in Canada.

It is coincidentally a law in Canada.
If you don't give Glory to God for His law, because that's where it came from coming up with different ways of saying it, doesn't change anything in my opinion, but that can be between you and God, its not something that would sit right with me.
 
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expos4ever

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Practically speaking, we may be arguing about nothing of consequence....
Here is the problem: even though the content of our "set of moral principles" might be the same if we look to the 10 commandments or if we listen to the "voice" of the indwelling Spirit, it would, I believe, be a monumental blunder to consult the Law when we have been clearly told that the Spirit has been given to us to essentially "replace" the Law:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Surely it is a problem if we take it upon ourselves to ignore what Paul is saying here.

I have argued earlier that Paul believes the Law is actually an amplifier for sin - it actually makes the Jew more sinful, not less. And not because it merely reveals sin - if we take Paul seriously, we have to acknowledge that he believes the Law actually energizes the sinful impulses living within us. To wit:

Romans 7:
But sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind;

1 Corinthians 15
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the Law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ

I realize this is an astonishing claim, but if we take Paul seriously, and stop distorting his wording, I think we are driven to this stark conclusion: God has used the Law, including the 10, to concentrate sin in the nation o of Israel so that sin can finally be focused down on a single individual - Jesus - and condemned on the cross.

If so, the Law has played its part - and a dark one at that - and can be set aside.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Surely it is a problem if we take it upon ourselves to ignore what Paul is saying here.

I have argued earlier that Paul believes the Law is actually an amplifier for sin - it actually makes the Jew more sinful, not less. And not because it merely reveals sin - if we take Paul seriously, we have to acknowledge that he believes the Law actually energizes the sinful impulses living within us. To wit:

Romans 7:
But sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind;

1 Corinthians 15
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the Law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ

I realize this is an astonishing claim, but if we take Paul seriously, and stop distorting his wording, I think we are driven to this stark conclusion: God has used the Law, including the 10, to concentrate sin in the nation o of Israel so that sin can finally be focused down on a single individual - Jesus - and condemned on the cross.

If so, the Law has played its part - and a dark one at that - and can be set aside.

How can you say what God created is "dark"

It's not what Paul says about the law So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. Romans 7:12. Like I quoted previously, many who misunderstand Paul's writing leads to their own destruction.

We must have very different view of our God, because God wrote the Ten Commandments with His own finger, placed in the ark of the Covenant in the Most Holy place in the Temple where He dwells and is revealed in Heaven. Revelation 11:19 Doesn't sound dark to me, but the one who has deceived most people Revelation 12:9 wants you to believe there is no law, because without the law, we would not need a Savior for the forgiveness of our sins and we would all be lost.
 
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Leaf473

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Our bodies are a temple and dwelling place for the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 6:19 the Spirit is given to keep the commandments. John 14:15-18 and to those who obey Acts 5:32. If one is truly led by the Spirit you won't be deifying our bodies with foods God deemed unclean and bad for us. Defiling our bodies is more than just foods, its also a life style and Jesus made clear in Mark 7:9-10 by defiling the commandments of God and Jesus quoted directly from the Ten. When you walk in the Spirit you are going to want to obey God in all that His has commanded. God bless.
Thanks for expounding. Two different issues come to my mind, so I'll make two different posts.

The first issue is that according to the law our bodies are defiled by fluid discharges.

Are you saying that when God gives us the holy Spirit, we aren't defiled by our discharges anymore? Or something different?
 
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Leaf473

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Our bodies are a temple and dwelling place for the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 6:19 the Spirit is given to keep the commandments. John 14:15-18 and to those who obey Acts 5:32. If one is truly led by the Spirit you won't be deifying our bodies with foods God deemed unclean and bad for us. Defiling our bodies is more than just foods, its also a life style and Jesus made clear in Mark 7:9-10 by defiling the commandments of God and Jesus quoted directly from the Ten. When you walk in the Spirit you are going to want to obey God in all that His has commanded. God bless.
Okay... But didn't Jesus say that nothing going into our mouths will defile us? How does that work in your interpretation of the scriptures?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Thanks for expounding. Two different issues come to my mind, so I'll make two different posts.

The first issue is that according to the law our bodies are defiled by fluid discharges.

Are you saying that when God gives us the holy Spirit, we aren't defiled by our discharges anymore? Or something different?
I don't think you understand the scriptures, I shared the scriptures with you. I would prayerfully ask the Holy Sirit to guide you in His Truth.
 
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Leaf473

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Well, yesterday you had two different interpretations, so that would lead one to the conclusion you might not be too sure. I am 100% sure when Paul says what matters is keeping the commandments of God, it most certainly includes the Ten Commandments. The commandments of God came in the Old Testament but God wrote those in our hearts and minds in the New Covenant Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:10 so the law of God did not end up in the New Covenant for the standard of Christian living randomly. You are free to believe that though as we are all given free will. I believe our time on this earth is short and we have time to make our decisions today and if we hear voice today, don't harden our hearts. We are called to worship Him in Truth and Spirit John 4:24-25 and Jesus in His own words tells us we worship in vain when we place mans traditions over the commandments of God quoting directly from the Ten. Mark 7:6-13, Matthew 15:3-9. God bless
Two different interpretations of the leper story in Matthew 8?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Okay... But didn't Jesus say that nothing going into our mouths will defile us? How does that work in your interpretation of the scriptures?
You don't understand the passage. Jesus is referring to the tradition of washing hands and foods going into our mouths with unclean hands. He is condemning them because they think not washing their hands is what defiles a man, but Jesus is saying that is not want defiles a man, they are worshipping in vain by following traditions over the commandments of God. They may eat with clean hands, but what they are doing- not keeping the commandments of God and living ungodly is what is defiling them. Jesus is basically calling them hypocrites. Same principles apply today. Thats why when Jesus comes many will say Lord Lord and they think they are following Him, but only those who do the will of the Father will be in heaven Matthew 7:21-23.
 
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Leaf473

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Yes, I would like to see where they believe I am disrespecting God's authority.
Well, and this is based on my understanding of what I've heard from several people, the idea is that we have to keep the very letter of all of the remaining laws, the laws that didn't end at the cross.

So I *think* what they see as disrespectful is going with the principles or spirit of the law as opposed to the letters plus the principles or spirit.

One would expect that, given the emphasis placed on the actual letters, those who promote that view would be happy to say where those letters are found. But no, it doesn't happen... neither here on this thread, nor on CF, nor on the larger internet.

To me it's not a good situation, because saying what the letters, words, and scripture references are would almost certainly clear up a lot of misconceptions.
 
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Leaf473

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If you don't give Glory to God for His law, because that's where it came from coming up with different ways of saying it, doesn't change anything in my opinion, but that can be between you and God, its not something that would sit right with me.
I do give God glory as the source of his word.

Psalm 119
Forever, O Lord, your Word is settled in heaven.

The law that I follow is the law written on my heart. Again, God gets all the glory, he's the one that wrote it on my heart!
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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Here is the problem: even though the content of our "set of moral principles" might be the same if we look to the 10 commandments or if we listen to the "voice" of the indwelling Spirit, it would, I believe, be a monumental blunder to consult the Law when we have been clearly told that the Spirit has been given to us to essentially "replace" the Law:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Surely it is a problem if we take it upon ourselves to ignore what Paul is saying here.

I have argued earlier that Paul believes the Law is actually an amplifier for sin - it actually makes the Jew more sinful, not less. And not because it merely reveals sin - if we take Paul seriously, we have to acknowledge that he believes the Law actually energizes the sinful impulses living within us. To wit:

Romans 7:
But sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind;

1 Corinthians 15
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the Law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ

I realize this is an astonishing claim, but if we take Paul seriously, and stop distorting his wording, I think we are driven to this stark conclusion: God has used the Law, including the 10, to concentrate sin in the nation o of Israel so that sin can finally be focused down on a single individual - Jesus - and condemned on the cross.

If so, the Law has played its part - and a dark one at that - and can be set aside.

Paul is inconsistent. That is why it is a mistake to take his writings out of the audience context. The Gospels also, written by Jews of a Jew preaching to Jews in Jewish environment.


In Acts, Paul seems to have told the Jews to continue keeping the Law. He required Timothy be circumcised (16:3) and he had made a vow while in Corinth (18:18). When he is before the Sanhedrin, Paul claims he has continued to keep the law (23:1).

And yet to Galatians concerning Gentiles he writes:

Galatians 3:2-26 TPT
So answer me this: Did the Holy Spirit come to you as a reward for keeping Jewish laws? No, you received him as a gift because you believed in the Messiah. Your new life began when the Holy Spirit gave you a new birth. Why then would you so foolishly turn from living in the Spirit by trying to finish by your own works? Have you endured so many trials and persecutions for nothing? Let me ask you again: What does the lavish supply of the Holy Spirit in your life and the miracles of God’s tremendous power have to do with you keeping religious laws?

Galatians 5
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

And

Romans 8
8 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.


No wonder there has been debate since the resurrection.

I value your posts here, Expos4ever. Always clear.

BTW, message me about the Expos and what you think of the Blue Jays.
 
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