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Did Cain and Abel Keep the Torah or Sabbath?

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by visionary, Nov 7, 2017.

  1. Mercymessianicjudiasm

    Mercymessianicjudiasm New Member

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    There is no oral Torah that says a day begins in the evening. Evening is just mentioned before morning. Satan is mentioned after Adam in the scriptures, so I guess that means according to your implicit logic, Adam existed prior to Satan.
     
  2. tampasteve

    tampasteve Tampa, Florida, USA, Earth, Sol, Orion arm Supporter

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    Hence why I said "Oral Torah and Traditions".
    That would be faulty logic and would be inaccurate to what I have clearly stated that I believe is based on written and oral Torah and Tradition that helps me interpret the scripture. Further, HaSatan would presumably have been created with the other Heavenly hosts and we can deduce that they were already around when G-d stated "Let us make man in our image, after our likenes....."
     
  3. Mercymessianicjudiasm

    Mercymessianicjudiasm New Member

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    There is no oral Torah or tradition that supports a day beginning in the evening, only the Sabbath being permitted to be celebrated on Friday evening. A double portion of manna was also provided on the sixth day, distinguishing the Sabbath from all other days. Again their is no ancient tradition that supports the other days beginning in the evening. The Sabbath manna was preserved until.the following day.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2017
  4. tampasteve

    tampasteve Tampa, Florida, USA, Earth, Sol, Orion arm Supporter

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    We do not have to agree on when the day starts. But it is undeniable that the Hebrew/Jewish Tradition for centuries has stood by this definition. If I agree with Tradition and Oral Torah, as I do - but you are certainly not bound to - then the Talmud is clear that the verse "And it was evening and it was morning, one day." infers that the day follows the night.
     
  5. Mercymessianicjudiasm

    Mercymessianicjudiasm New Member

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    You are inserting your own bias into the text. You did not write the text, so how can you be so certain you know what the text infers? We are discussing ancient text perhaps thousands of years old but you can tell me the author's inference. It is faulty logic to presume you know something implicitly or "unwritten" when you do not. I have found that many people treat the hebrew or Greek like they do the English language. They tell an English word doesn't mean what it clearly means, after you have presented to them a dictionary or concordance. They are dishonest when they interpret or translate all languages.
     
  6. tampasteve

    tampasteve Tampa, Florida, USA, Earth, Sol, Orion arm Supporter

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    No, I am not using my own bias or making up "unwritten" inferences. I am using ancient texts and culture facts that show this. The Talmud is not some new document, it is based on thousands of years of oral and written teachings of the sages. Does that make it inherently correct? Not necessarily, but taken with the culture, and thousands of years of actual practice, I think I will stick with the teaching as I know it. There is no "dishonesty" involved in interpreting or translating the text, it is what has been understood and practiced by the Jewish people for centuries.

    Again, you do not have to agree with me, I am merely pointing out that the Talmud and actual practice agrees with my understanding. Your understanding can be correct for you, but if I am going to use the written and oral Torah, as well as Talmud, Mishna, etc. then the understanding I have is correct for me.
     
  7. Mercymessianicjudiasm

    Mercymessianicjudiasm New Member

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    My point is simple, there is no ancient text or tradition that says a day begins in the evening. Like many holidays preparation is needed prior to celebrating the holiday. Everyone know the Sabbath DAY is Saturday but provisions were made on the sixth day. In other words people may celebrate July 4th, a day before or after, so that work is ceased in honor to the holiday, just in case the holiday falls on already day off. Much in the same way; circumcision on the 8th day and the Sabbth day, the Sabbath is profaned , so that the law or "sign of the covenant " is not broken.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2017
  8. tampasteve

    tampasteve Tampa, Florida, USA, Earth, Sol, Orion arm Supporter

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    My point is also simple, there is cultural and textual support for the way that the Jewish people and religion have practiced for thousands of years. Maybe you disagree with the evidence, but it is there. If you see it that way that is fine, but that is just not how the Jewish people have practiced for thousands of years nor how basically any of the sages have interpreted it.

    We are spinning wheels here. I suppose we are going to have to agree to disagree on it.
     
  9. Mercymessianicjudiasm

    Mercymessianicjudiasm New Member

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    Your evidence is purely speculative or inference, the Torah requires two eye witnesses. The two eye witnesses shall not tell you what they think transpired they will only tell what they saw with their own two naked eyes. Cain was the firstborn, the punishment of sin was not imputed unto him since there were no witnesses. Cain was forgiven, and anyone would be punished seven times worse if anyone killed him.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2017
  10. tampasteve

    tampasteve Tampa, Florida, USA, Earth, Sol, Orion arm Supporter

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    As I said, spinning wheels. G-d bless.
     
  11. pinacled

    pinacled Newbie

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    perhaps a sabbath is a hill on which a childs light may rest.
    Being that our Father of Lights gave us the purest of oil to light a path Home.
    Have you not heard of the Grace of Salvation given into his hand to lead all those given..


    ..All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him. Come to Me, all you who are weary andburdened, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.…
     
  12. pinacled

    pinacled Newbie

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    Or perhaps another view of the skylight blessings would be to count the times a dove returns.
     
  13. pinacled

    pinacled Newbie

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    Bread upon the waters,..


    And this is the law of the peace offering, which he shall bring to the Lord.
    If he is bringing it as a thanksgiving offering, he shall offer, along with the thanksgiving offering unleavened loaves mixed with oil, unleavened wafers anointed with oil, and scalded flour mixed with oil.
     
  14. Open Heart

    Open Heart Messianic Jewish Catholic

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    And when do YOU think Shabbat starts? Perhaps midnight? Do you find any scripture supporting that? On the other hand, we have "and there was evening and morning, the X day."

    I agree about preparation time. I do most of my preparation on Thursday night. Chopping food, getting out the right pans, setting out the dishes and putting the candles in the candle sticks, cleaning the house. That way when I get home on Friday, all I have to do is quickly cook dinner which usually takes about 10-15 minutes since the prep work is already done, and spend 5 minutes swapping the toilet paper for kleenex, running through the house looking for forbidden items, and setting my my lights the way I want them.
     
  15. pinacled

    pinacled Newbie

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    After the amount of foul seeds you have sown.
    Your thoughts are not washed

    Your heart spills out hatred because you were fed it with a constant lie.

    Purity in forgiveness is as close as your own mouth. Would you dare openly drink?
     
  16. Open Heart

    Open Heart Messianic Jewish Catholic

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    If you think I am hateful, I can only say that you have a good imagination. I disagree with you. That's not the same thing as hate.
     
  17. pinacled

    pinacled Newbie

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    Of all what you have sought, did you consider finding an answer?
     
  18. pinacled

    pinacled Newbie

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    To enter into the Lords rest, to move from darkness to Light, from death to Life.
    It is wonder for me how any person could deny such a heavenly gift.

    Where is the peace a women sought after with all her heart to bring her wounds to the Lord for healing in the Wings of purity of the Son.
    The Wonderful Counselor of the Holy Spirit
    "I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.

    There came unto him a woman having an alabaster box of very precious ointment, and poured it on his head, as he sat at meat.
    But when his disciples saw it, they had indignation, saying, To what purpose is this waste?
    For this ointment might have been sold for much, and given to the poor.
    When Jesus understood it, he said unto them,
    Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me.
    For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.
    For in that she hath poured this ointment on my body, she did it for my burial.
    Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.


    'Now when anyone presents a grain offering as an offering to the LORD, his offering shall be of fine flour, and he shall pour oil on it and put frankincense on it. 'He shall then bring it to Aaron's sons the priests; and shall take from it his handful of its fine flour and of its oil with all of its frankincense And the priest shall offer it up in smoke as its memorial portion on the altar, an offering by fire of a soothing aroma to the LORD.
    144000
    So Joshua called the twelve men whom he had appointed from the sons of Israel, one man from each tribe; and Joshua said to them, "Cross again to the ark of the LORD your God into the middle of the Jordan, and each of you take up a stone on his shoulder, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Israel.


    To them I will give in My house and within My walls a memorial, And a name better than that of sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name which will not be cut off.
     
  19. pinacled

    pinacled Newbie

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    If the home is worthy, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14And if anyone will not welcome you or heed your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. 15Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.…
    1 John 2
    patience

    Beloved, I am not writing you a new commandment, but an old one, which you have had from the beginning. This commandment is the message you have heard. 8Then again, I am also writing you a new commandment, which is true in Him and also in you. For the darkness is fading and the true light is already shining. 9If anyone claims to be in the light but hates his brother, he is still in the darkness.…


    Psalm 4:4
    Tremble, and do not sin; Meditate in your heart upon your bed, and be still. Selah.
    James 1:20
    for man's anger does not bring about the righteousness that God desires.
    Ephesians 4
    …25Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are members of one another. 26“Be angry, yet do not sin.” Do not let the sun set upon your anger,


    Strength in forgiveness
    Praise Him, sun and moon; praise Him, all stars of the night.
    Personally I love this psalm as if the words were to the dearest of friends.
    something of no greater love that pours through the vaults


    sun and moon, sheresh and yareach.

    A sun of righteousness in the peacefull evening wisdom of faith, kept as a treasure in the house of the Lord.
    For out of abundance a silver light memory cascades upon the season's furnace.
     
  20. BukiRob

    BukiRob Newbie

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    ‘e·reḇ
    עֶ֥רֶב
    the evening
    Noun
    1242 [e]
    ḇō·qer
    בֹ֖קֶר
    the morning
    Noun

    That is the Hebrew found in Genesis 1:5
     
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