• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Did Cain and Abel Keep the Torah or Sabbath?

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by visionary, Nov 7, 2017.

  1. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    +4,853
    Messianic
    YOUR ATTENTION PLEASE
    The following posts were
    moved from the other
    thread about Cain and Abel
    and their Genealogy

    Please keep all discussion
    about if they kept Torah
    or Shabbat in this thread.
    Thanks​



    sabbath weekly rest... it is in the creation story
     
  2. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

    +2,582
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    No... Sabbath yes of course because God rested on the 7th day of creation when He couldn't possibly been tired (setting example of the those to come). But the Feasts are all based on historical events that hadn't happened in Adam's day. How can we have Passover or Unleavened Bread, for example, without the Exodus giving meaning (and reason) for the Feast itself?
     
  3. pinacled

    pinacled Newbie

    729
    +102
    Non-Denom
    Private
    what about the Holy days you just mentioned.
    would say cain or abel know of these?
     
  4. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

    +2,582
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    No, because (again) the at least some of the Feasts are based on historical events that hadn't happened yet. God's instruction was given over a progression of time until it was finally recorded in writing at Sinai and then used as Israel's rule of law.
     
  5. pinacled

    pinacled Newbie

    729
    +102
    Non-Denom
    Private
    it just seemed to me that something quite prophetic was given to Adam and Chava
    Abel brought to the Lord a first born of the flock that he had shepherded with love and compassion.
    Yet cains offering became a bread of malice towards his own kin, his brother even.

    regard the day.
     
  6. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

    +2,582
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I agree... they did make sacrifices and there had to be a level of understanding at that time. I believe, and could be wrong... that God's basic do's and don'ts were within HIM always, but that He imparted them to us as need arose. It is said that Abraham followed the Torah and keep the commandments... but we know some commandments were tied to having a Temple or a priesthood which Abraham did not at that time (The Order of Melchizidek is different than the Levitical) and so he kept what was given at that time. We do that now... we keep what we can under the conditions we are in.

    Blessings.
    Ken
     
  7. pinacled

    pinacled Newbie

    729
    +102
    Non-Denom
    Private
    ive often wondered what difference would separate the piesthood from an Heavenly order.
     
  8. Open Heart

    Open Heart Messianic Jewish Catholic

    +3,482
    United States
    Catholic
    Celibate
    There are no feasts based on historical events that haven't happened yet.
     
  9. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

    +2,582
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I know... did you think I didn't know that or that I said something in contrary to that? The question was related to CAIN and ABEL and whether or not they took part in Feasts. Since all feasts have a historical tie to an event (i.e. the Spring feasts tied to the Exodus and Sinai experience) or have a starting point where God instituted His desire for Israel to keep them... none of that was present during Cain and Abel's lives which is all I said.
     
  10. Open Heart

    Open Heart Messianic Jewish Catholic

    +3,482
    United States
    Catholic
    Celibate
    Grrr... I've tried editing this several times and keep messing it up. One more time.

    Okay, I understand you now.

    I see I haven't been following the thread carefully. I think it is absurd that anyone would suggest that Cain and Abel would keep any of the feasts or Sabbath. First of all, they are not Israelite, since Israel did not exist yet, and second, the obligations to Sabbath and the feast had not yet been given.
     
  11. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

    +2,582
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Open Heart... I just did explain it in full in the post you just commented on. Passover is based on events that took place in Egypt... that hadn't happened when Cain and Abel were alive. Unleavened Bread and Pentecost the same... all tied to Egypt or Sinai and none of that had happened when Cain and Abel were alive. So to the question of me, "what about the Holy days you just mentioned. Would say Cain or Abel know of these?" my answer is no... they were designed to commemorate historical events that hadn't happened when Cain and Abel were alive.
     
  12. Open Heart

    Open Heart Messianic Jewish Catholic

    +3,482
    United States
    Catholic
    Celibate
    I'm a little out of it this morning, sorry. I see that we are both online this morning, so you caught my unedited post. We are now on the same page. Go back and read the edited post, I think you'll be happy.
     
  13. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

    +2,582
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    If you mean what is the difference between the Levitical priesthood and the Priesthood after the Order of Melchizedek, my answer would be to say that the Levitical system was made up only of Levites and was created to serve God and Israel alone. The Order of Melchizedek is ALL of ISRAEL and is a priesthood to the nations. The latter will receive the bulk of fulfillment in the Millennial Kingdom, I believe.
     
  14. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

    +2,582
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    It isn't about happy or not, no big deal, just a misunderstanding. It was a simple question that was asked of me and we're on the same page... save for the Sabbath. I believe that once Adam was booted from the Garden and had to work... that he observed the Sabbath. I realize this is not specifically mentioned... but the Sabbath is God's way of allowing us all to recharge... in addition to setting a day aside to worship. Once Adam fell we have been in this same declining state ever since and because God does not change either... and seeing He set the example at Creation to keep Shabbat (I don't believe He was tired, I believe He was setting an example) then that FOR ME is the one exception. The rest of the moedim have to wait until the historical event takes place or God gives the command to observe.
     
  15. pinacled

    pinacled Newbie

    729
    +102
    Non-Denom
    Private
    I agree in a sense that the distinction is made.

    The levites served for a moment in time as an example of the inheritance that the Lord would offer to all nations.
     
  16. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

    +2,582
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Actually... I can show you three verses where they are called an "everlasting priesthood" as well. They simply have no means to do their job. No Temple... Torah (God's Law) is not the Law of the land, and so forth.
     
  17. pinacled

    pinacled Newbie

    729
    +102
    Non-Denom
    Private
    The elder shall serve the younger.

    Something of these two siblings reminds me of something my Lord spoke of about the Door. perhaps like a gate to a home that a youth might of known and was pleading and working in faith to ask for forgiveness.
    And i dont believe it should be reminded that cain was angry without cause.

    The Altar and the Sabbath when bringing a gift.
    Matthew 5:23-24New King James Version (NKJV)
    23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

    }Now it came to pass at the end of days, that Cain brought of the fruit of the soil an offering to the Lord.
    And Abel he too brought of the firstborn of his flocks and of their fattest, and the Lord turned to Abel and to his offering.{

    {14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death. 15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that eternal life does not reside in a murderer. 16 By this we know what love is: Jesus laid down His life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.…}




     
  18. pinacled

    pinacled Newbie

    729
    +102
    Non-Denom
    Private
    I just imagined these two youths knowing the day the Lord would visit.
     
  19. pinacled

    pinacled Newbie

    729
    +102
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Yes, also said to be a Royal priesthood to the tent of meeting
     
  20. pinacled

    pinacled Newbie

    729
    +102
    Non-Denom
    Private
    And Moses took the tabernacle, and pitched it without the camp, afar off from the camp, and called it the Tabernacle of the congregation. And it came to pass, that every one which sought the Lord went out unto the tabernacle of the congregation, which was without the camp.

    8 And it came to pass, when Moses went out unto the tabernacle, that all the people rose up, and stood every man at his tent door, and looked after Moses, until he was gone into the tabernacle.

    9 And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the Lord talked with Moses.

    10 And all the people saw the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door: and all the people rose up and worshipped, every man in his tent door.

    11 And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
     
Loading...