Dialogue on Freewill and Determinism

[Pavel Mosko]

This is an article that is a collection of message board conversations and email exchanges between an Orthodox priest father John (FJ) and a number of Calvinist Protestants (CP) going back to the late 1990s. I find it enlightening on the issue, but I believe I would call it a "straw dog". A straw dog according to "straw dog bites straw man". (Calvinism has officially handled this kind of objection with the Synod of Dort. So for Orthodox Calvinists could or should invoke it, but none of the posters actually invoke it).

MoQ: Forum -- Strawdog bites Strawman


I find a number on concepts used by the Father interesting, especially in regards the canard of "earning your salvation". The accepting being released from prison analogy I think is a good one. @David Cabrera




CP: I'm particularly interested in how you believe foreknowledge absolves God from the charge that He is responsible for evil. If Calvinism makes God responsible for evil (as you have repeatedly suggested), how does your view rescue the Almighty from a similar blame? If He knew evil would occur and permitted it anyway—even though he could have avoided it—how is He exculpated from responsibility in your view?

FJ: God predestines according to foreknowledge and His eternal purposes. Part of His eternal purpose is that Man would love Him of his own free will, and not by any necessity. Those that respond to God's grace are foreknown and predestined to be heirs of Salvation, according to God's eternal purposes. Those that reject God's grace, are foreknown, and are accordingly appointed unto damnation. Those that reject God's grace are therefore, justly condemned.

For some reason, you think that this cooperation would mean that man merits his salvation. But if some ransomed prisoners choose to stay with their captors, while other choose to be free, no one would say that those thus freed had merited their release.


Dialogue on Free Will & Determinism

 

[Not David]

This is an article that is a collection of message board conversations and email exchanges between an Orthodox priest father John (FJ) and a number of Calvinist Protestants (CP) going back to the late 1990s. I find it enlightening on the issue, but I believe I would call it a "straw dog". A straw dog according to "straw dog bites straw man". (Calvinism has officially handled this kind of objection with the Synod of Dort. So for Orthodox Calvinists could or should invoke it, but none of the posters actually invoke it).

MoQ: Forum -- Strawdog bites Strawman


I find a number on concepts used by the Father interesting, especially in regards the canard of "earning your salvation". The accepting being released from prison analogy I think is a good one. @David Cabrera




CP: I'm particularly interested in how you believe foreknowledge absolves God from the charge that He is responsible for evil. If Calvinism makes God responsible for evil (as you have repeatedly suggested), how does your view rescue the Almighty from a similar blame? If He knew evil would occur and permitted it anyway—even though he could have avoided it—how is He exculpated from responsibility in your view?

FJ: God predestines according to foreknowledge and His eternal purposes. Part of His eternal purpose is that Man would love Him of his own free will, and not by any necessity. Those that respond to God's grace are foreknown and predestined to be heirs of Salvation, according to God's eternal purposes. Those that reject God's grace, are foreknown, and are accordingly appointed unto damnation. Those that reject God's grace are therefore, justly condemned.

For some reason, you think that this cooperation would mean that man merits his salvation. But if some ransomed prisoners choose to stay with their captors, while other choose to be free, no one would say that those thus freed had merited their release.


Dialogue on Free Will & Determinism

Thanks!
I believe an example from the Bible that is always forgotten is the man forgiving his servants of all his debts but when the servant mistreats others, then he is punished. It would be illogical to say the servant saved because he begged for forgiveness or that the master doesn't get all glory because the servant decided to be ungrateful.

 

[ilovejcsog]

This subject is still open for me and leaves me puzzled. Am I making your thread what it isn't? If our destination is already determied and we are not to be a chosen one can we do anything to change our destination?

 

[Jeshu]

This subject is still open for me and leaves me puzzled. Am I making your thread what it isn't? If our destination is already determied and we are not to be a chosen one can we do anything to change our destination?

i think a lot of reformed thinkers would say the desire to serve God would not spark repentance but rather a hardening of their hearts and a rejection of God's offer. However people do that themselves, God didn't make them do that, or determine such behaviour. He did not create us stocks and blocks. i think in principle i agree with such thinking. It is reality that some people suffer sin while others love it.
However unlike a lot of Reformed thinking i believe that God seeks the salvation of the ones who suffer evil wrong while condemning those who love doing evil. This is nothing but glorious in my books. For life in wrong is then forgiven and done away with while a new life is given back in return.

For surely people who love lies and evil deeds more than God's loving truth cannot nor should endure ever. God determined that from the beginning. Even though He allowed such behaviour to happen down here, in His loving truth they don't belong or can find a lasting place to exist. Also He reserves the right to punish any act that transgresses His truth and His love, for people do know the difference between right and wrong.

However people who seek salvation and call upon the name of Jesus will be saved from their life in lies and set free in His loving truth. Such people will respond to the Gospel. God's truth teaches that a life oppressed by lies brings misery to people who love the truth and hunger after truthful love. i think that this does sum op the truth of sinful reality all around us and of His salvation. Rejected by the majority of humanity because they love lies more than God's truth and refuse to love their Creator but love to serve their big egos build by the lies they believe about themselves.

The sad fact is that lies captivate all peoples wills and emotions and produces a negative charge that doesn't produce a spark until a positive charge is introduced. A negative charge cannot make a spark by itself however, only when a positive charge is introduced can this occur.

Therefore i believe it is true that God causes salvation to grow in peoples hearts and that salvation is from Heaven and not in anyway from sinful peoples actions, deeds or will and that even our faith is a gift of God and not of sinful ourselves.

This is not difficult to understand and no one needs to charge God with wrong. For we all know that eternal life is from God and that He knows what lives in the hearts of people.

Those who hate God's loving truth to rule are predestined to be destroyed and held responsible for the evil they have committed against God's loving truth. Surely that is not wrong but good? Who wants a life of lies to live forever and not be judged for the evil they have committed but those who love falsehood and evil deeds? Who wants them? i don't!

However all those who have problems with their unloving and untruthful hearts are called to be in His glory. Simply believing the word of God brings the faith they need to call upon the Lord and be delivered from their lives in lies and find true existence in His loving truth instead. God's offer is open, a free life in and with Him, or a life of sinful slavery and its devastating consequences.

This is how i think God determined election. For it is written all those who love sin are punished and destroyed, while all those who wail their untrue and unfaithful lives and long for God's love and truth to rule are called to salvation in Christ by God's word.

i firmly believe no child of God will miss out in the end but all that people have build with the lies living in them will not live forever but perish like the beasts of the field while the evil they done while like that is punished justly and eternally.

All liars will perish says the word but that doesn't mean that what is true and from God within humanity and was persecuted, imprisoned, enslaved, oppressed, perverted or killed will not be rewarded or resurrected on the last day. Acts 17:28 teaches us that all people are His offspring. (‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’)

God can work with His spirit in which ever heart He wills for we are His from the start. Like i said before God knows the human heart even from day one of its existence and before. This can bring hope and admiration for our Lord's victory. 1 Timothy 4:9-10.

i think what is needed is an good understanding of God's salvation. Not a salvation where the fallen sinner needs to save him or herself but rather receive eternal life as a gift of God. Life in lies isn't saved by default, it also perishes in us believers. What is wrong with that? i love God for destroying sin and its power over me in my heart and thank Him daily seeking ever more freedom from sin and life in His loving truth. In my books this is what it means that God determined beforehand that life in lies cannot exist in His loving truth, but we can be saved from it by Jesus and given a new life made by Heaven into our hearts.

A life which proceeds from The Spirit of Jesus which transforms us into new beings in Him and from Him, no boasting in ourselves in any of that. Yet a new life which is saved by default and is His gift in Spirit to our spirit for He makes His dwelling in our hearts, displacing our corrupt nature with His glorious One, and building us a dwelling place in Heaven. All those who love true love to rule will never be disappointed in the God of the bible.

Therefore i believe that all untrue life is cut out of humanity one day and that God's true life will be resurrected in all people for all came from Him in the first place but where unrecognisably distorted and perverted by evil lies. So this act of God's justice will not benefit the unrepentant sinner anything. Just as the author of the books of Hebrews 4:12-13 tells us, they are cut off. For only those chosen from before the foundation of the world will have life in Him and from Him and be able to endure. As God's word clearly explains in His word. Acts 2:39 for "The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”


All glory to Him for making everything good in the end despite sinful peoples wilful rebellion against Him and for making things well for those who have suffered evil sin and seek God's loving truth to save them.

Peace.

 

[ilovejcsog]

Sorry, I didn't read it all, I don't when I think I will fall asleep. so it seems you do not believe in predestination? God chooses some before they are born and others have no choice since they are not a part of Gods destiny for them?
If you could use fewer words I could understand your stance, maybe.
Blessings!

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Am I making your thread what it isn't? If our destination is already determied and we are not to be a chosen one can we do anything to change our destination?

Yes! You completely missread my post.

Not in favor of Calvinist and Augustinian level of predestination at all!

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Sorry, I didn't read it all, I don't when I think I will fall asleep. so it seems you do not believe in predestination? God chooses some before they are born and others have no choice since they are not a part of Gods destiny for them?
If you could use fewer words I could understand your stance, maybe.
Blessings!

I believe that there is some truth to predestination etc. But that it is somehow balanced with some idea of free will. How the whole thing works out I believe is a Holy Mystery that we will not understand till we make it the other side of eternity.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Thanks!
I believe an example from the Bible that is always forgotten is the man forgiving his servants of all his debts but when the servant mistreats others, then he is punished. It would be illogical to say the servant saved because he begged for forgiveness or that the master doesn't get all glory because the servant decided to be ungrateful.

The problem with the notion of works that one Calvinist was bringing up (I was reading the posts at work when things were really slow on my phone, but havent bothered to log my phone it to post, nor do I intend to).

The whole issue of framing things about "earning your salvation", (even extremely minor thing), essentially framing things in terms of Pelagianism actually nullifies the original context of Covenant that the scriptures were based upon. By definition a Covenant is a two party contract where both sides agree to a certain set of terms etc.