Deuteronomy 18 and prophecies about Jesus

[Barney2.0]

You listed similarities. I gave a reasonable explanation. There's a difference.

The prophecy itself states a prophet like unto Moses. So similarities in this case are a reasonable explanation.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

The prophecy itself states a prophet like unto Moses. So similarities in this case are a reasonable explanation.

I see the case you're making now, and it's fairly compelling. There are a lot of minutia here that can be inferred either way, but I think the main problem for your case is that verse 20 seems to be part of the context of verse 18, which would strongly indicate my position.

But I can fully grant your argument without abandoning mine. So I'll do just that. The text, up to verse 19, is speaking of Jesus. But that would still be a prophecy from God, not from a man, so the metric by which we judge false prophets (starting in verse 20) doesn't apply to God himself.

Thus we are still left with the idea that no far-future prophecy of Jesus from a prophet exists.

 

[Barney2.0]

I see the case you're making now, and it's fairly compelling. There are a lot of minutia here that can be inferred either way, but I think the main problem for your case is that verse 20 seems to be part of the context of verse 18, which would strongly indicate my position.

But I can fully grant your argument without abandoning mine. So I'll do just that. The text, up to verse 19, is speaking of Jesus. But that would still be a prophecy from God, not from a man, so the metric by which we judge false prophets (starting in verse 20) doesn't apply to God himself.

Thus we are still left with the idea that no far-future prophecy of Jesus from a prophet exists.

Jesus was also a man and fulfilled the earthly role of a prophet hence why he is called a prophet numerous times in the Bible.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Jesus was also a man and fulfilled the earthly role of a prophet hence why he is called a prophet numerous times in the Bible.

That's not addressing what I said.

 

[Barney2.0]

That's not addressing what I said.

I see nothing that violates it being Jesus in verse 19 or 20.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

I see nothing that violates it being Jesus in verse 19 or 20.

If it's a prophecy about Jesus, why would God explain what to do in the event that Jesus is a false prophet?

 

[Barney2.0]

If it's a prophecy about Jesus, why would God explain what to do in the event that Jesus is a false prophet?

Actually that part of the prophecy is a warning to people who claim that they are the prophet who is like unto Moses. It is to tell the difference between the real prophet who is like unto Moses (Jesus) from imposters who wish to claim the title for themselves.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Actually that part of the prophecy is a warning to people who claim that they are the prophet who is like unto Moses. It is to tell the difference between the real prophet who is like unto Moses (Jesus) from imposters who wish to claim the title for themselves.

But I'm sure you would agree that not all prophets were "like unto" Moses. Ezekiel, for example, was a prophet but not "like unto" Moses. What kind of test did Ezekiel have to pass in order for people to accept that he was a prophet? Or did they just believe him blindly?

 

[Barney2.0]

But I'm sure you would agree that not all prophets were "like unto" Moses. Ezekiel, for example, was a prophet but not "like unto" Moses. What kind of test did Ezekiel have to pass in order for people to accept that he was a prophet? Or did they just believe him blindly?

The mark of a false prophet is one who speaks in the name of another god while pretending to serve the real god as verse 20 of Deuteronomy 18 states. Ezekiel didn’t call people to the worship of a different god or ideology and neither did Jesus Christ. The prophet spoken of in Deuteronomy 18:18 would have to be nearly exactly like Moses and since I posted the similarities above, who other then Jesus has so many similarities to Moses.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

The mark of a false prophet is one who speaks in the name of another god while pretending to serve the real god as verse 20 of Deuteronomy 18 states.

That's not what the verse says. You twisted it a bit.

Ezekiel didn’t call people to the worship of a different god or ideology and neither did Jesus Christ.

But verse 20, which you mischaracterized, says that men might speak presumptuously for God. In verse 22, it clarifies by saying you will know a man has spoken presumptuously if his prediction doesn't come to pass. Combined with the order to execute false prophets, it's clear that the expectation is that prophecies come true in the lifetime of the prophet. Hence the whole point of the thread: there is not, nor can there be, an unambiguous prophecy about Jesus Christ.

The prophet spoken of in Deuteronomy 18:18 would have to be nearly exactly like Moses and since I posted the similarities above, who other then Jesus has so many similarities to Moses.

"Like unto" doesn't have to mean "nearly exactly." Joshua fits the bill just fine. I'm sure a lot of Christians would agree.

 

[Barney2.0]

That's not what the verse says. You twisted it a bit.



But verse 20, which you mischaracterized, says that men might speak presumptuously for God. In verse 22, it clarifies by saying you will know a man has spoken presumptuously if his prediction doesn't come to pass. Combined with the order to execute false prophets, it's clear that the expectation is that prophecies come true in the lifetime of the prophet. Hence the whole point of the thread: there is not, nor can there be, an unambiguous prophecy about Jesus Christ.



"Like unto" doesn't have to mean "nearly exactly." Joshua fits the bill just fine. I'm sure a lot of Christians would agree.

It’s also a sign of a false prophet to speak in the name of a false god. Although like unto Moses doesn’t necessarily have to be one like exactly like Moses, Joshua does fit the bill just fine, but it’s Jesus fits it like a glove, better to go with the near exact similarities then anything else as it says like unto Moses.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

It’s also a sign of a false prophet to speak in the name of a false god.

I'm not disputing this. But this also doesn't dispute anything I said.

Although like unto Moses doesn’t necessarily have to be one like exactly like Moses, Joshua does fit the bill just fine, but it’s Jesus fits it like a glove, better to go with the near exact similarities then anything else as it says like unto Moses.

I've already said that because this is God directly speaking, the test for false prophets doesn't apply. So I can grant this and it doesn't change anything in the OP. At what point will you move on to either concede the OP or prove it wrong?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

If it's a prophecy about Jesus, why would God explain what to do in the event that Jesus is a false prophet?

Why?................to make it a kind of Rorschach test for the Pharisees, Saduccees, and Jewish Scribes when Jesus finally came onto the scene. Think about it. If the Pharisees and their Jewish compatriots had recognized Jesus as being a complete fulfillment of all of the various Jewish expectations that danced about in the collective, apocalyptically inclined Jewish imagination -- i.e. as Shiloh, as the Branch, as The Prophet, as The Son of Man, as the Messiah (see F.F. Bruce and also Kaiser, Jr.), -- then they wouldn't have contemplated finding a way from Scripture to have Jesus put to death as a 'false prophet,' a designation which, as you know, many non-Christian Jews still think Jesus is classified by today.

But we all know from the contexts of Scripture (Deuteronomy 13 and 18) that the Pharisees did have at least some reason to make a Scriptural diagnoses about Jesus' character, and by interpreting all of what transpired with Jesus through the various strange networking hermeneutics by which Jews wrote and have interpreted their Scriptures and their identities within their respective religion (see Neusner), they did have partial justification for calling for the death of Jesus---------------------but only if He was perceived and interpreted through an utterly self-willed, truncated hermeneutic that refuses to painstakingly sift through and take everything in Scripture into account in its totality.

In essence, it means that God brought about His will by utilizing the partial blindness of the Pharisees as they attempted to rationalize their assessment and identification of Jesus. They would inevitably fail and apostasize due to their emotional states and their penchants for sustaining their interest in political and social power (something they were highly mindful of and invested in on a day by day basis since they always had their Roman overlords standing over their heads, reminding them of their forced subjugation.............) Basically, God forced them into a catch-22 and orchestrated the forcing of their hands against Jesus through their partially blinded attempts to justify themselves against Jesus on the one hand......and against the Romans on the other hand.

So, of course, how one interprets the figure of "the Prophet" in Deuteronomy 18 will depend on one's emotional state and one's vested interest at the time of doing so; and as Zimmerman points out, the personal hermeneutics which we each apply to varying degrees to our outlook on life, to our understandings of meaning in the world, and even to how we interpret the Bible, are all always interest driven. It's inescapable.

[Note: the above is my own interpretation of the Rorschach type situation that I believe God brought about in Jesus, it isn't something that Jacob Neusner even touches upon, as far as I know.]

References

Bruce, F.F. (1995/1978). The time is fulfilled. Grand Rapids, MI: William B. Eerdman's Publishing Company.

Kaiser, Jr., Walter. (1995). The Messiah in the Old Testament. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House.

Neusner, Jacob. (1991). Judaism as philosophy: The method and Message of the Mishnah. Columbia, SC: University of South Carolina Press.

Neusner, Jacob. (2004). Judaism and the Interpretation of Scripture. Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers.

Zimmerman, Jens. (2015). Hermeneutics: A very short introduction. Oxford, UK: Oxford University Press.​

(In fact, if you really want to get into a deeper understanding about the Jewish rational mindset, which is somewhat different than the Greco-Roman form of rationality, you can't go wrong with anything written by Jacob Neusner).

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Why?................to make it a kind of Rorschach test for the Pharisees, Saduccees, and Jewish Scribes when Jesus finally came onto the scene. Think about it. If the Pharisees and their Jewish compatriots had recognized Jesus as being a complete fulfillment of all of the various Jewish expectations that danced about in the collective, apocalyptically inclined Jewish imagination -- i.e. as Shiloh, as the Branch, as The Prophet, as The Son of Man, as the Messiah (see F.F. Bruce and also Kaiser, Jr.), -- then they wouldn't have contemplated finding a way from Scripture to have Jesus put to death as a 'false prophet,' a designation which, as you know, many non-Christian Jews still think Jesus is classified by today.

But we all know from the contexts of Scripture (Deuteronomy 13 and 18) that the Pharisees did have at least some reason to make a Scriptural diagnoses about Jesus' character, and by interpreting all of what transpired with Jesus through the various strange networking hermeneutics by which Jews wrote and have interpreted their Scriptures and their identities within their respective religion (see Neusner), they did have partial justification for calling for the death of Jesus---------------------but only if He was perceived and interpreted through an utterly self-willed, truncated hermeneutic that refuses to painstakingly sift through and take everything in Scripture into account in its totality.

In essence, it means that God brought about His will by utilizing the partial blindness of the Pharisees as they attempted to rationalize their assessment and identification of Jesus. They would inevitably fail and apostasize due to their emotional states and their penchants for sustaining their interest in political and social power (something they were highly mindful of and invested in on a day by day basis since they always had their Roman overlords standing over their heads, reminding them of their forced subjugation.............) Basically, God forced them into a catch-22 and orchestrated the forcing of their hands against Jesus through their partially blinded attempts to justify themselves against Jesus on the one hand......and against the Romans on the other hand.

So, of course, how one interprets the figure of "the Prophet" in Deuteronomy 18 will depend on one's emotional state and one's vested interest at the time of doing so; and as Zimmerman points out, the personal hermeneutics which we each apply to varying degrees to our outlook on life, to our understandings of meaning in the world, and even to how we interpret the Bible, are all always interest driven. It's inescapable.

[Note: the above is my own interpretation of the Rorschach type situation that I believe God brought about in Jesus, it isn't something that Jacob Neusner even touches upon, as far as I know.]

References

Bruce, F.F. (1995/1978). The time is fulfilled. Grand Rapids, MI: William B. Eerdman's Publishing Company.

Kaiser, Jr., Walter. (1995). The Messiah in the Old Testament. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House.

Neusner, Jacob. (1991). Judaism as philosophy: The method and Message of the Mishnah. Columbia, SC: University of South Carolina Press.

Neusner, Jacob. (2004). Judaism and the Interpretation of Scripture. Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers.

Zimmerman, Jens. (2015). Hermeneutics: A very short introduction. Oxford, UK: Oxford University Press.​

(In fact, if you really want to get into a deeper understanding about the Jewish rational mindset, which is somewhat different than the Greco-Roman form of rationality, you can't go wrong with anything written by Jacob Neusner).

Al Masihi is focusing on false gods too much. You're not focusing on them enough.

A Rorschach test for the Pharisees, Saduccees and Jewish scribes would have no need of mentioning false prophets who steer the people toward worshipping false gods if this section of scripture is exclusively about Jesus Christ.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Al Masihi is focusing on false gods too much. You're not focusing on them enough.

.............well, no one's perfect, NV!

A Rorschach test for the Pharisees, Saduccees and Jewish scribes would have no need of mentioning false prophets who steer the people toward worshipping false gods if this section of scripture is exclusively about Jesus Christ.

This is partially true. But in our understanding about various kinds of false prophets, we shouldn't get too bogged down in exacting interpretation that ignores the general patterns that are implied by the entire interweaving corpus of the whole of the Bible. Moreover, the existence of false prophets doesn't necessarily have to do only with the possible worshiping of false gods; it can also be a matter of a prophet's act of enticing the people of God to worship God with false and delusive expectations, such as we see demonstrated by Hananiah.

 

[Barney2.0]

I'm not disputing this. But this also doesn't dispute anything I said.



I've already said that because this is God directly speaking, the test for false prophets doesn't apply. So I can grant this and it doesn't change anything in the OP. At what point will you move on to either concede the OP or prove it wrong?

What do you mean that because it’s God speaking the test for false prophets doesn’t apply.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Because GOD said he would raise up another prophet like Moses who would speak GOD's words to Israel. Moses led Israel out of bondage to Egypt; Jesus led Israel out of bondage to sin.

Notice how GOD says he will put his words in the prophet's mouth, who will speak those words to Israel; and then notice how many times Jesus said the same thing (there are more; I just grabbed these):

I will raise up to them a prophet of their brethren, like thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them as I shall command him. Deuteronomy 18:18

Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak from myself, but the Father residing in me does his works. John 14:10

So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not mine, but is from the one who sent me. John 7:16

The one who does not love me does not keep my words, and the word that you hear is not mine, but the Father’s who sent me. John 14:24​

Next notice what it says in verse 19, and how it corresponds with Jesus' words below it:

And whatever man shall not hearken to whatsoever words that prophet shall speak in my name, I will take vengeance on him. Deuteronomy 18:19

The one who rejects me and does not accept my words has one who judges him; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. For I have not spoken from myself, but the Father himself who sent me has commanded me what I should say and what I should speak. John 12:48-49
​

Deuteronomy 15-19 is a prophecy about Jesus. Verses 20-22 are instructions how to evaluate prophets.

Another exposition of the text, ' My beloved is like a gazelle ‘: Israel, explained R. Isaac, said to the Holy One, blessed be He: ' Sovereign of the Universe! Thou hast told us that Thou wilt come to us first.’ ' My beloved is like a gazelle ‘; as the gazelle appears and then disappears, so the first redeemer [Moses] appeared and then disappeared. R. Berekiah in the name of R. Levi said: Like the first redeemer so will the final redeemer be. The first redeemer was Moses, who appeared to them and then disappeared. For how long did he disappear from their sight? R. Tanhuma said: Three months; accordingly it is written, And they met Moses and Aaron, etc. (ib. V, 20).2 The final redeemer will also appear to them and then disappear.
(Midrash Rabbah Bamidbar 11:2)​

 

[Nihilist Virus]

What do you mean that because it’s God speaking the test for false prophets doesn’t apply.

Is God a prophet? If God makes a false prediction, are we supposed to stone him?

 

[Chinchilla]

No concept of a far-future prophecy is covered. If a prophet made a prediction that didn't come true within 500 years,

Where did you get that part from sir I don't see it in Bible maybe I'm just blind can you quote it ?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Where did you get that part from sir I don't see it in Bible maybe I'm just blind can you quote it ?

If I'm saying they had no concept of it, what exactly are you expecting me to quote?

They had no concept of electricity, either. But there's no quote which says, "We have no concept of electricity." So in demonstrating this I'd have to make a case.

I laid out the case for my argument about prophecies in the OP.