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Deuteronomy 18 and prophecies about Jesus

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by Nihilist Virus, Jun 28, 2018.

  1. Nihilist Virus

    Nihilist Virus Infectious idea

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    Deuteronomy 18:15-22 says,

    15 Jehovah thy God will raise up unto thee a prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 16 according to all that thou desiredst of Jehovah thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of Jehovah my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.

    17 And Jehovah said unto me, They have well said that which they have spoken.

    18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

    19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

    20 But the prophet, that shall speak a word presumptuously in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.

    21 And if thou say in thy heart, How shall we know the word which Jehovah hath not spoken?

    22 when a prophet speaketh in the name of Jehovah, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which Jehovah hath not spoken: the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously, thou shalt not be afraid of him.

    It seems that a common misunderstanding about prophecy is that it is a display of God's power, and nothing more. That God makes a prediction, it comes true, and then... nothing happens because we're done here. This is not the case. The purpose of a prophecy is to show that the prophet actually does speak for God. If a prophet makes a prediction that comes true, then, as Deuteronomy 18 says, that prophet speaks for God. That prophet then goes on to do his actual work, which is relaying God's will to the people.

    As for the main point of the thread, first notice that if a prophet's prediction does not come to pass, then he is a false prophet (verses 21-22). Notice also that false prophets shall be executed (verse 20).

    No concept of a far-future prophecy is covered. If a prophet made a prediction that didn't come true within 500 years, he would have been considered a false prophet. Plain and simple.

    So considering that there were 500 years between the last Old Testament writing and the birth of Jesus, and considering the very high cost of actually producing a book back in these ancient times, the probability that scholars would write down the words of a false prophet in a book and then copy it multiple times and preserve it for centuries is basically 0%.

    Therefore, a clear, unambiguous prophecy that is 100% about Jesus and 0% about anything else simply does not exist. No such prophecy was ever intended. It's gospel writers taking the Old Testament out of context that have created a mess.
     
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  2. TuxAme

    TuxAme Quis ut Deus? Supporter

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    You make the mistake of assuming that we say, "A messianic prophecy is only about the messiah". That's not the case; prophecy is more nuanced than that.
     
  3. συνείδησις

    συνείδησις ¿uo buıob sı ʇɐɥʍ

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    Verses 15-19 are specifically talking about Jesus. 100%
     
  4. Nihilist Virus

    Nihilist Virus Infectious idea

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    I didn't make that mistake. Please re-read, particularly near the end where I addressed your point specifically:

    Therefore, a clear, unambiguous prophecy that is 100% about Jesus and 0% about anything else simply does not exist.
     
  5. Nihilist Virus

    Nihilist Virus Infectious idea

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    Because why?
     
  6. TuxAme

    TuxAme Quis ut Deus? Supporter

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    My mistake. I have bad eyes.

    I would agree with you on that point.
     
  7. συνείδησις

    συνείδησις ¿uo buıob sı ʇɐɥʍ

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    Because GOD said he would raise up another prophet like Moses who would speak GOD's words to Israel. Moses led Israel out of bondage to Egypt; Jesus led Israel out of bondage to sin.

    Notice how GOD says he will put his words in the prophet's mouth, who will speak those words to Israel; and then notice how many times Jesus said the same thing (there are more; I just grabbed these):

    I will raise up to them a prophet of their brethren, like thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them as I shall command him. Deuteronomy 18:18

    Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak from myself, but the Father residing in me does his works. John 14:10

    So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not mine, but is from the one who sent me. John 7:16

    The one who does not love me does not keep my words, and the word that you hear is not mine, but the Father’s who sent me. John 14:24

    Next notice what it says in verse 19, and how it corresponds with Jesus' words below it:

    And whatever man shall not hearken to whatsoever words that prophet shall speak in my name, I will take vengeance on him. Deuteronomy 18:19

    The one who rejects me and does not accept my words has one who judges him; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. For I have not spoken from myself, but the Father himself who sent me has commanded me what I should say and what I should speak. John 12:48-49

    Deuteronomy 15-19 is a prophecy about Jesus. Verses 20-22 are instructions how to evaluate prophets.
     
  8. συνείδησις

    συνείδησις ¿uo buıob sı ʇɐɥʍ

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    And whatever man shall not hearken to whatsoever words that prophet shall speak in my name, I will take vengeance on him. Deuteronomy 18:19

    I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me. If another should come in his own name, you would accept that one! John 5:43
     
  9. συνείδησις

    συνείδησις ¿uo buıob sı ʇɐɥʍ

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    I will raise up to them a prophet of their brethren, like thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them as I shall command him. Deuteronomy 18:18

    For I have not spoken from myself, but the Father himself who sent me has commanded me what I should say and what I should speak. John 12:49
     
  10. Nihilist Virus

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    How's it not Joshua? Moses was banned from the Holy Land and Joshua was his successor. Was Joshua not a prophet who spoke God's words to Israel?

    Jesus never did that. Even when Christianity began and nearly all Christians were Jews, it was still the case that the vast majority of Jews were not Christians. Illustrated in the spoiler; close the ad to see the legend:

    [​IMG]

    There has never in history been a time when the Jews were a majority Christian people, let alone entirely Christian. And even if there were such a brief period of time, there would simply be far too many Jews left behind for you to say that Jesus delivered Israel from anything.

    The fact that Christians have historically blamed the Jews for the crucifixion of Jesus has led to Jews being among the most persecuted minority of all time, right up there with Africans and colonized natives. So to say Jesus was like Moses in liberating Israel is quite inaccurate.

    Perhaps you could say that Christ indirectly liberated the Jews because Christians, out of pity for what the Jews endured in the holocaust, reinstated Israel as a nation. But still, the fact remains that most Israelis are not Christian, so your point ultimately fails regardless of how far we stretch it.

    What does this prove, aside from the facts that Jesus was familiar with scripture and that he thought he was a prophet?

    If I quote Deuteronomy 15-19, will I be a messiah also? I hope you see how inadequate your case is.
     
  11. συνείδησις

    συνείδησις ¿uo buıob sı ʇɐɥʍ

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    I don't think Joshua is called a prophet. Plus he taught Moses. There was no need to send another messenger to teach Israel about Moses. They already had that.
     
  12. συνείδησις

    συνείδησις ¿uo buıob sı ʇɐɥʍ

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    He saved the remnant of Israel. That's all that was prophesied to be saved.
     
  13. συνείδησις

    συνείδησις ¿uo buıob sı ʇɐɥʍ

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    You don't sound like a Christian.
     
  14. Nihilist Virus

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    Did Joshua talk to God and relay messages from God to the people?

    What does this mean? Moses was much older, I'd think it was the other way around.

    Unless you mean that Joshua taught Mosaic law, in which case I'd wonder what you think my position actually is. Why would I say that Joshua disputed Mosaic law if Joshua was Moses' successor?

    All around confusing sentence you got there.

    Teach about Moses? Moses was talking with God in private and relaying the message to the masses. In verse 16 it's shown that this is necessary because the people feared seeing or hearing God, thinking they would die. So they put just one man in charge of this. God's mouthpiece, a prophet, would speak to Israel on God's behalf. I don't know why you are saying that anyone would be teaching Israel about Moses.

    And how is that in any way like Moses delivering the entire nation of Israel? You said Moses and Jesus are alike. I think Moses and Joshua are more alike.


    I'm not. Are you in the wrong forum?
     
  15. συνείδησις

    συνείδησις ¿uo buıob sı ʇɐɥʍ

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    I didn't notice I was on the apologetics forum and didn't realize that I was responding to an unbeliever. Have a nice day.
     
  16. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    It's very simple, you just don't know what it is your talking about.

    Your attempting to read, understand and critique a Spiritual Book, with Spiritual understandings, through the insight of a Natural man, this cannot be done.

    1Co. 2:14
    But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    1Co 1:21-29
    21) For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
    22) For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
    23) But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
    24) But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
    25) Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
    26) For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
    27) But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
    28) And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
    29) That no flesh should glory in his presence.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2018
  17. Nihilist Virus

    Nihilist Virus Infectious idea

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    What you've just said would render apologetics totally pointless. Why are you here then?
     
  18. Moral Orel

    Moral Orel Proud Citizen of Moralton Supporter

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    First you have to put faith in man to tell you who God is. Then you can put faith in God. Don't you know how this works?
     
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  19. Nihilist Virus

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    Well, what would Moral Orel do here?

    Seriously, let's pretend to be Christians and see if we can resolve this. If we can show prophecy can be about Jesus. I dont think the Christians will contribute, so it's up to us.
     
  20. Moral Orel

    Moral Orel Proud Citizen of Moralton Supporter

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    Ha! I should get a "W.W.O.D" bracelet made!

    What does the lost 29th Commandment teach us? Repress your doubt that the prophecies aren't about Jesus and repeat after me, "Everything's fine!".
     
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