Destructive Model of Church

[Episaw]

The way you present this information is confusing.

Nothing confusing about what I said except to those who want to make more of scripture than what is in there.

 

[Episaw]

Likewise I didn't know it was a discussion about the Pentecostal churches.

Your point that traditional church structures are inefficient just doesn't seem true, in my experience. It speaks more to the religious culture that you come from. There are many benefits to having a community church in a dedicated building that may not fit into an American utilitarian, individualistic ethos. And that's a good thing, frankly. The Church is entitled to its own institutional life in the world beyond just being an activity people do in their basement or loft.

I never said it was. I was using it as an example to show that the Christian world is not confined to Lutheran ideas.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

Churches are non-profit organizations so they cannot be taxed , unless they become political parties.

501c3 is designed to control pastors and churches bottom line. It opens the door to corruption and compromise from the pulpit. This is the whole point to 501c3.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

1 Thessalonians 2King James Version (KJV)
2 For yourselves, brethren, know our entrance in unto you, that it was not in vain:

2 But even after that we had suffered before, and were shamefully entreated, as ye know, at Philippi, we were bold in our God to speak unto you the gospel of God with much contention.

3 For our exhortation was not of deceit, nor of uncleanness, nor in guile:

4 But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts.

5 For neither at any time used we flattering words, as ye know, nor a cloke of covetousness; God is witness:

(they did not take salaries) not just Paul

6 Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.

7 But we were gentle among you, even as a nurse cherisheth her children:

8 So being affectionately desirous of you, we were willing to have imparted unto you, not the gospel of God only, but also our own souls, because ye were dear unto us.

9 For ye remember, brethren, our labour and travail: for labouring night and day, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God.

They all were working to provide for themselves labouring night and day. Why so they would not be chargeable to ANY of you - meaning no one owed them a salary nor did they expect it.

How is it that there is SO much evidence of this in scripture, not just Paul not charging but all the Apostles yet it is totally ignored by the hirelings today who simply want to justify their salaries.

10 Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:


1 Thessalonians 4

9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

10 And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;

11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;

Why is Paul telling them to work with their hands? Because this is the model, the model he is doing through example and what he expects. Why...verse 12 tells us.

12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.

Walking honestly = working and providing for yourself and others, just as Paul, Barnabas, Timothy, and Titus ALL did

2 Thessalonians 3

7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;

8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:

9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.

10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

There it is Paul was not just simply foregoing some false right to a salary he explains CLEARLY - all should work, including pastors.

 

[FireDragon76]

I never said it was. I was using it as an example to show that the Christian world is not confined to Lutheran ideas.

I'm quite aware of that, but merely having another idea doesn't make it true. If it's true that institutional churches are hopelessly corrupted to the point that only house churches are the only legitimate model, then that has serious consequences for how we are to interpret Jesus words that the Church would not be overcome.

 

[Open Heart]

Your diagnosis is based on the modern day church, not the one in the New Testament.

We live in a different culture. And the church in the US is going to have it different from the church in the Sudan too, because of things like utilities are mandated here.

 

[Episaw]

We live in a different culture. And the church in the US is going to have it different from the church in the Sudan too, because of things like utilities are mandated here.

 

[Episaw]

We live in a different culture. And the church in the US is going to have it different from the church in the Sudan too, because of things like utilities are mandated here.

Heaven and earth will pass away but my word will never pass away. Ever read that in scripture. I agree that in the small incidentals things will be different but in the essentials they should not change.

Whatever the church is or is not doing and whether it is doing it well or not, one thing is sure. If we base everything we do on the word of God we will do it much better than we are doing it at the moment.

 

[Episaw]

I'm quite aware of that, but merely having another idea doesn't make it true. If it's true that institutional churches are hopelessly corrupted to the point that only house churches are the only legitimate model, then that has serious consequences for how we are to interpret Jesus words that the Church would not be overcome.

I never said it is true. I only used it as an example to illustrate the point. As for your second comment that is what I have been saying all through this discussion. If you follow scripture and meet in the home as the New Testament church did and we can all come up with excuses/reasons why that is no longer relevant, of course, it is going to cause all sorts of ructions in the church mainly because there are too many people who have an investment in the current CEO model.

 

[FireDragon76]

..it is going to cause all sorts of ructions in the church mainly because there are too many people who have an investment in the current CEO model.

Please explain what you mean by "CEO model". Most historic churches in the US are run in a somewhat democratic fashion, which is in accordance with the early Church.

 

[Dino Cavalli]

I would like to bring this point for your consideration, brothers and sisters.

To run a church today according to the popular model, you must use this simple algorithm:

1. There should be enough attendees in more or less good financial standing.
2. There should exist motivation for the attendees to give.
3. If not (1), then grow the church in order to collect more money.
4. If not (2), then keep motivating the attendees to give.

This model works only in places that satisfy the following conditions:

1. Sizable Christian population
2. Good stable economy
3. Lack of strong persecution of the Christian faith

Many countries do not have all of the above Conditions 1, 2 and 3. They have to operate with a different model of church.

Example 1: PR of China. Very small home churches. No paid ministers. Local ministers only. True believers filtered by strong persecution. Church growing rapidly.

Example 2: Kazakhstan The majority of churches are organized according to the popular model. A large percentage of foreign ministers. Financially supported by churches or Christian organizations from abroad. A small number of self-supported home (cell) churches that refuse any foreign or local external support. Very slow growth of church, fully dependent on presence of foreign Christian capital - much decreased since 2008.

Origins of such model of Christian church

Where are the roots of the popular model of church? Dedicated building and paid, professional ministers. I think, from the era when Christianity was strongly supported by the state in countries of Christian majority population. Examples: Roman Empire, England, Russia, Spain, France. As European colonial powers spread Christianity to the new colonies, they brought their model of church and its cultural practices to wide geographical areas, such as in the Americas, Africa, South-East Asia, Australia.

Problems with imposing a single model of church operation

1. Such model makes churches in places where conditions 1-3 are not satisfied fully dependent on foreign support. This single fact poses the biggest hindrance to spreading of the gospel, as locals resent the invasion of a foreign faith.
2. It also corrupts local church, as it is seen as source of easy money by local Christian ministers and a pathway to immigration to first world countries.
3. It corrupts foreign missionaries and ministers residing in the field because of the strong temptation of huge financial support amidst local poverty and zero control from the sending church or organization.
4. As economic conditions in the host country(ies) can vary, churches risk losing their financial support and disappearing as the result (sad reality).
5. This model proves to be unfeasible in countries with strong persecution against Christianity. Thus, such countries effectively have extremely small Christian population, and slow growth. PR of China is an example where local Christians had to devise and adopt a more Jesus-like model of church, which was found to be exceedingly successfull.

Conclusion:

Money is a very bad fuel for spreading and sustaining Christian faith. Only unpaid, volunteer, free of charge Christians are able to carry out a lasting and real impact on individual souls and society as a whole. I think the best and the right kind of fuel is human hearts with true and strong faith in Jesus Christ.

Would you agee?

 

[Dino Cavalli]

Remember the 1st century "church" as described in the Acts of the Apostles--we need more of that these days and less of the mega-churches that, from what I have seen over the years, preach a watered down, all inclusive Gospel. There is a famine of the true word--I discuss this and other relevant issues in my Blog---http://ofwhatoursaviorspoke.blogspot.com/

 

[2Timothy2:15]

Be sure to support your local church and pay your tithes.

This is not isolated to the mega church tv pastors...this is what you get when you have hirelings in the pulpit who think being a pastor is a job. When the lost can see the hypocricy and the con artist there is a big problem. Why is it that the body of Christ is totally blind to this?

Pastor Spends $200,000 of Church's Money to Buy His Own Book to Make it a New York Times Best Seller

Pastor Steals $21K from Church to Silence Mistress

Associate Pastor Admits Stealing $200,000+!

Another Greedy Mega Church Twisting Scripture For Wealth

Pastor accused of stealing from church

 

[Open Heart]

oops

 

[Jack Isaacks]

I would like to bring this point for your consideration, brothers and sisters.

Dedicated building and paid, professional ministers. I think, from the era when Christianity was strongly supported by the state in countries of Christian majority population.

Would you agee?

No, I would not. You clearly know nothing about either the Bible nor church history. Nevertheless, you hold up your ignorance as wisdom.

On the matter of supporting the ministers, ST. Paul said, "The laborer in the vineyard is worthy of his hire." He also applied the prohibition of muzzling threshing oxen to this same matter.

One who instructs must be first instructed.

And even before Constantine, many congregations had buildings.

Back when everything had to be copied by hand, do you actually think the copyists volunteered their labor and materials, too?

As one old priest said, "Salvation is free, but the church costs money."

Glory to Jesus Christ!

 

[2Timothy2:15]

No, I would not. You clearly know nothing about either the Bible nor church history. Nevertheless, you hold up your ignorance as wisdom.

On the matter of supporting the ministers, ST. Paul said, "The laborer in the vineyard is worthy of his hire." He also applied the prohibition of muzzling threshing oxen to this same matter.

One who instructs must be first instructed.

And even before Constantine, many congregations had buildings.

Back when everything had to be copied by hand, do you actually think the copyists volunteered their labor and materials, too?

As one old priest said, "Salvation is free, but the church costs money."

Glory to Jesus Christ!

You may want to do some research before you call others ignorant. A very large percentage of the oldest churches were not built until late 4th and 5th century.

List of oldest church buildings - Wikipedia

Why? Because the church was being heavily persecuted prior to Constantine and they could not meet openly in buildings or it would be really really easy to catch them, jail them, kill them.

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

No, I would not. You clearly know nothing about either the Bible nor church history. Nevertheless, you hold up your ignorance as wisdom.

On the matter of supporting the ministers, ST. Paul said, "The laborer in the vineyard is worthy of his hire." He also applied the prohibition of muzzling threshing oxen to this same matter.

One who instructs must be first instructed.

And even before Constantine, many congregations had buildings.

Back when everything had to be copied by hand, do you actually think the copyists volunteered their labor and materials, too?

As one old priest said, "Salvation is free, but the church costs money."

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Jesus doesn't cost any money. It's wrong.

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

I'm quite aware of that, but merely having another idea doesn't make it true. If it's true that institutional churches are hopelessly corrupted to the point that only house churches are the only legitimate model, then that has serious consequences for how we are to interpret Jesus words that the Church would not be overcome.

Church is not overcome. Church as worldwide gathering of true followers of Jesus.

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

We live in a different culture. And the church in the US is going to have it different from the church in the Sudan too, because of things like utilities are mandated here.

Culture seems to be the magic word capable of justifying just about anything. Culture is human traditions. God is above them.

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

I was raised very conservative Mennonite... and we had a church building, but not paid clergy.
Money was never a central issue in the church.

However, in my adulthood, I became part of a non-Mennonite housechurch, and what I witnessed there was far from the solidity of fellowship I experienced in the Mennonites.

From my experience in many churches, I have come to a conclusion:
It's not the model of housechurch versus building-church that makes for a good fellowship.
And it's not the model of unpaid ministers that leads to successful spiritual leadership.
The answer goes much deeper.

The reason the churches who live under persecution are weeded out, is, like you said, because unbelievers won't stay if they have to suffer.
But in areas where no persecution exists, the preaching of Truth would make it so uncomfortable for rebellious sinners, that they wouldn't want to stay either!
The fault does not lie with God, in not supplying America with persecution to purify His church.
The fault lies with ministers, who value numbers of congregants, more than the church's purity before God.
(Which translates directly into valuing offering size, reputation with man, and worldly success, more than loving God with all the heart, soul, mind, and strength.)
This is a problem of idolatry within the heart of the individual minister.
This is not the problem of a paid clergy.

House church leaders (facilitators) have the same root issues of pride, which is evidenced in their relationships with people who disagree with them.

There is a very solid foundation within the New Testament for a paid clergy.


1 Timothy 5:17-18
"Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward."

1 Corinthians 9:6-14
6 Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.


Therefore, if we receive spiritual things from a minister of the gospel, we owe wages to him, in carnal things.

Paul chose not to ask the Corinthian church for financial support, BUT he later said that he did a wrong to the Corinthian church, in this.
2 Corinthians 12:13
"For what is it wherein ye were inferior to other churches, except it be that I myself was not burdensome to you? forgive me this wrong."


Paul said to Timothy:
2 Timothy 2:
1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.
5 And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.
6 The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits.
7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

How do all these verses tie together?
Paul was telling Timothy that he had a job to do. This job took time and effort. And that meant a difficult lifestyle.
Why? Because it required him to give up earthly entanglements... entanglements in trying to reap the fruits of earthly labor.
Timothy could have gone out and gotten a job to support himself.
But that would have taken time, energy and focus away from his first calling. The ministry.
It would have been an "entanglement."
And it would have been "unlawful".
Because it would have gone against the guidelines of "the husbandman that laboreth must be first partaker of the fruits."

When I was growing up in the Mennonites, I watched firsthand how unpaid ministers had to struggle to hold two jobs. The first job was keeping a roof over their families' heads, clothes on their backs, food on their tables, and all their modern bills paid. This was a full-time job! And there is no way a man can avoid this burden, neglecting his family, without bringing shame on the reputation of Christ.

But unpaid ministers also had their "first calling"--the ministry. This job required every moment they could possibly spare. Visiting the sick, counseling the struggling, comforting the grieving, studying the Word, preparing sermons, and everything else a good minister should do.

No one can carry the weight of both jobs, and do well on both fronts.
If a minister is doing his job spiritually, then the church owes it to him, to relieve his financial burden, so he doesn't have to hold a job.
Or the church will suffer spiritually.

Very good response. Thank you. Some good insight. But the Holy Spirit is truly powerful. It's God. Must have faith. Church is really not about money any way you look at it.