• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Desolating Abomination of the Heart

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by daq, Mar 29, 2014.

  1. daq

    daq Messianic

    +281
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Both wonderful and terrible things take place in the heart. The most terrible of all is the "abomination of desolation" spoken of by Daniel the prophet. The word in the Greek New Testament translated as "abomination" appears only three times in the Gospel accounts. Two of those occurrences are found in the companion chapters Matthew 24 and Mark 13. This means that technically speaking the word is only used on two occasions by the Master in the Gospel accounts because Matthew and Mark record the same statement from the Olivet Discourse. After the Gospel accounts it occurs only in the Book of the Revelation of Yeshua.

    Matthew 24:15 KJV
    15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination [GSN#946 bdelugma] of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

    Mark 13:14 KJV
    14. But when ye shall see the abomination [GSN#946 bdelugma] of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand), then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:


    Original Strong's Ref. #946
    Romanized bdelugma
    Pronounced bdel'-oog-mah
    from GSN0948; a detestation, i.e. (specially) idolatry:
    KJV--abomination.

    The KJV word for "abomination" in the Greek is the same GSN#946 "bdelugma" in all three instances. Yeshua then only uses it twice, (or possibly the Hebrew-Aramaic equivalent) because Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are companion passages. Thus Yeshua only used the word for "abomination" on two separate occasions and because one of them is a direct quote from Daniel, whom Yeshua clearly states to be a prophet, we can be certain that the other occasion is highly significant in regards to the true meaning of the "abomination of desolation" written in the Book of Daniel. The usage the same word only twice, as recorded in the Gospel accounts, strongly implies that both instances denote the very same meaning as interpreted by the Master himself.

    The question then becomes whether or not one is willing to accept the teaching and doctrine of Messiah in this regard, that is, if the same word is found elsewhere and does not agree with the eschatology of the modern prophecy scholars and shepherds? Yeshua clearly states in the second usage of "bdelugma" that the abomination concerns men and the condition of the heart. And we know from the Strong's definition above that the word means idolatry just as does the Hebrew word used in Daniel for "abomination", (HSN#8251 "shiqquwts") in the passages concerning the abomination of desolation. The passage in Luke is the only other place in the Gospel record where the word is employed.

    And the passage from Luke should be sobering to any true disciple of Yeshua:

    Luke 16:13-15 KJV
    13. No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
    14. And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
    15. And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination [GSN#946 bdelugma] in the sight of God.


    The same word does not occur again until the Revelation:

    Revelation 17:4-5 KJV
    4. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations [GSN#946 bdelugma] and filthiness of her fornication:
    5. And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS [GSN#946 bdelugma] OF THE EARTH.

    Revelation 21:27 KJV
    27. And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, [GSN#946 bdelugma] or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.


    According to the usage of "bdelugma" in the Gospel accounts the Greek word concerns individual people and the idolatrous condition of the heart. This is according to the Testimony of Yeshua. According to the usage of the same "bdelugma" found in the Book of the Revelation of Yeshua it still concerns individual people and the idolatrous condition of the heart. And it is Yeshua himself who states that it is he that searches the reins and hearts of us all.

    The abomination of desolation is therefore most certainly an event which every true disciple of Yeshua will one day be forced to deal with if not already, (each in his or her own appointed times and none shall be alone in his appointed times) and we are given the supernal signs to watch for when the appointed time approaches because the man is the temple. The same supernal signs are given in the Matthew 24 and Mark 13 companion passages and they go hand in hand with the seven abominations from Proverbs:

    Proverbs 6:16-19 KJV
    16. These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
    17. A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
    18. An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
    19. A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.


    Notice that one of the attributes doubles up and returns?
    It is the lying tongue and it always comes back as the false witness.
    The lying tongue gives place to the devil according to the Epistle to the Ephesians:

    Ephesians 4:17-27 KJV
    17. This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
    18. Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
    19. Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
    20. But ye have not so learned Christ;
    21. If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
    22. That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
    23. And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
    24. And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
    25. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
    26. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
    27. Neither give place to the devil.


    In fact the "false witness" spirit of abomination actually breathes out lies:

    Proverbs 6:19 RSV (Revised Standard Version)
    19. a false witness who breathes out lies, and a man who sows discord among brothers.

    Proverbs 6:19 YLT (Young's Literal Bible)
    19. A false witness [who] doth breathe out lies - And one sending forth contentions between brethren.


    This should sound familiar because it is directly related to the following:

    Revelation 13:15 RSV
    15. and it was allowed to give breath [GSN#4151 pneuma] to the image of the beast so that the image of the beast should even speak, and to cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain.

    Revelation 13:15 YLT
    15. and there was given to it to give a spirit [GSN#4151 pneuma] to the image of the beast, that also the image of the beast may speak, and [that] it may cause as many as shall not bow before the image of the beast, that they may be killed.


    The seven abominable spirits are indeed taught by the Master in his doctrine and they concern every disciple because sins and evil are always personified as entities with the various evil attributes. Thus, even though most disciples might never think that they ever had or needed a devil cast out of them, that is the teaching of the Master from the very beginning of the walk:

    Luke 11:24-26 KJV
    24. When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
    25. And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
    26. Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.


    What is the first unclean spirit according to Paul?

    1 Corinthians 2:11-14 KJV
    11. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
    12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
    13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
    14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    Ephesians 2:2-3 KJV

    2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
    3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.


    The first unclean spirit that is cast out of every disciple of Yeshua in the commencement of his or her walk is that spirit of the world, the old man sin nature, the prince of the power of the air, that spirit which now works in the sons of disobedience. Nowhere does Yeshua say in Luke 11:24-26 that his statement only applies to "some" or the unfortunate "possessed few" and therefore it applies to every disciple who comes to the Master and submits to his doctrine. In fact it cannot apply to the world or to unbelievers which have not confessed Messiah because they have never had the spirit of the world cast out of them to begin with. The spirit that goes into the wilderness or dry-arid places and returns with seven others more wicked than himself is likewise "the eighth and of the seven", (Revelation 17:10-11) because the Testimony of Yeshua is the Spirit of the Prophecy, (Revelation 19:10). :)

    EDIT: This thread is a branch from Chronology of Messiah
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2014
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +1,709
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Daniel 12:
    4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

    7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
    8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
    9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
    10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
    11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
    12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.


    The abomination of desolation has nothing to do with being in someone's heart. It is something that will be set up for a specific number of days in the end times. And Jesus said of the thing to be set up...

    15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
    16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


    again, those verses show that the abomination of desolation is not something in a person's heart. It will be physical thing, that will be setup (stand) and been seen. That a particular group, them living in Judaea should flee into the mountains.
     
  3. SG9

    SG9 Guest

    +0
    Dear Douggg, you state that the AOD is not something that is in the 'heart' of mankind but I disagree because God specifically says that the world professes Him with their lips/mouth but their 'hearts' are far-off from Him. God does NOT say anything about our 'things' being far-off from Him.

    God is concerned with our 'Heart' because it is a spiritual issue that He is addressing. God in heaven doesn't see through natural eyes as we do, rather God sees only the Spiritual and He speaks of spiritual things.

    God wrote His Law in humankind and it resides in our mind, which is spiritual, and it is His Law that is changed when an abomination is set-up in the sanctuary of our Temple, which is in our body/soul. God speaks of the spiritual anatomy of man, and not of the anatomy of flesh as we do.

    We are not fighting any battle of flesh and blood but rather it's spiritual, and the battle takes place in high places, which is speaking of spiritual realms.

    It is the natural 'things' that substitute the spiritual as a form of idolatry. The carnal mind vs a spiritual mind is @ issue, and the carnal mind cannot see nor understand the spiritual things, as it is written. Too many other scriptures prove that your theology is incorrect.

    The scriptures say that we can have the mind of Christ; it says to let this mind be in us that was also in Christ, Jesus because it's all about the mind, which is our spiritual vessel.

    Philippians 2:5
    King James Version (KJV)
    5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:


    Thanks :)
     
  4. daq

    daq Messianic

    +281
    Non-Denom
    Private

    :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


    That is simply your physical and natural man interpretation of the texts which you have quoted. However, your entire paradigm is readily shown to be in opposition to the doctrines and teachings of the Master-Teacher Yeshua. To begin with Yeshua says that heaven and earth shall pass away but his words will never pass away. This means emphatically that all of his interpretations, doctrines, statements, idioms, parables, and allegories, everything will remain the same without change. His words cannot be annulled, obfuscated, ignored, or hidden from the light of day, (amongst the faithful) because his words are light. None of his statements will ever change or come to mean something other than what they meant when he said them. Anyone who tries to say that the Testimony of Yeshua has changed or does not apply today is merely fooling themselves and attempting to blind others along with themselves. In addition most everything Yeshua speaks about concerns the Kingdom of Heaven or Kingdom of God which are both the same thing and employed interchangeably between the Gospel accounts.

    The words of Messiah Yeshua shall never pass away:

    Mark 13:31-37 KJV
    31. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
    32. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
    33. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
    34. For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
    35. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
    36. Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
    37. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.


    The words of Messiah Yeshua are Spirit:

    John 6:62-64 KJV
    62. What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
    63. It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
    64. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.


    Did they see the Son of man ascend back up where he was before? Yes they did in the opening of the book of Acts. The statement above then was to forewarn the disciples that his words would remain in effect even after he was received up into the Cloud as they watched in the opening of the book of Acts. Thus the point is made once more that the words of Messiah Yeshua are SPIRIT and the flesh-physical profits absolutely nothing in his doctrine. And who was it that betrayed the Master in the passage above where Yeshua says that his words are [the] Spirit? It was Judas Iskariotes-Sicarii who was seeking a physical kingdom upon the earth. Already from this very small amount of information the physical dominion-kingdom seekers are painted in a treacherous and deceitful dark light with Judas the betrayer.

    The kingdom of God does not come with ocular-visual evidence:

    Luke 17:20-21 KJV
    20. And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: [GSN#3907 parateresis]
    21. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


    Original Strong's Ref. #3907
    Romanized parateresis
    Pronounced par-at-ay'-ray-sis
    from GSN3906; inspection, i.e. ocular evidence:
    KJV--obervation.

    The kingdom of God is WITHIN-INSIDE YOU:

    Luke 17:20-21 KJV
    20. And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
    21. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within [GSN#1787 entos] you.


    The word translated "within" is "entos" coming from "en" which certainly means "IN".

    Original Strong's Ref. #1787
    Romanized entos
    Pronounced en-tos'
    from GSN1722; inside (adverb or noun):
    KJV--within.

    BDB - Strong's Greek Definition for #1787
    1787 // entov // entos // en-tos' //
    from 1722 ; prep
    AV - within 2; 2
    1) within, inside
    1a) within you i.e. in the midst of you
    1b) within you i.e. your soul
    http://www.apostolic...s/luke_17.shtml
    http://www.apostolic...greek&stnm=1787

    Yeshua states that one must be born of above to even see the kingdom of God:

    John 3:3-4 KJV
    3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
    4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?


    Yeshua states that one must be born of Spirit to enter the kingdom of God:

    John 3:5-6 KJV
    5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


    Yeshua says that his kingdom is not of this world:

    John 18:36 KJV
    36. Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.


    All of these words of Messiah shall never pass away.
    They will never change, never be altered, nor rendered useless, never ever.

    In addition there are two body-temples which we as disciples of Yeshua are to watch and guard so as to be sure we do not defile them. The first temple is the Body of Messiah which he gave for the whole congregation:

    John 2:18-22 KJV
    18. Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
    19. Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
    20. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
    21. But he spake of the temple of his body.
    22. When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.


    In the passage above the Jews are speaking of the entire temple complex and likewise they assume Yeshua speaks of the same while instead he speaks of the temple of his body. This strongly implies that Yeshua is interpreting the entire temple complex with all of its precincts as his own body-temple which he was about to give for the world. This is indeed the case as we later learn because Paul would pen many passages which speak of the Body of Messiah and this is where the teaching stems from. The entire congregation is the Body of Messiah and those who eat of his words and abide in them are IN Messiah. Anyone who truly partakes of the true manna from heaven, which is the Son of man Yeshua who came down from heaven; the same partakes in the Body of Messiah and becomes a member of the great congregation.

    The other body-temple which we are to watch and guard is our own body:

    1 Corinthians 3:16-20 KJV
    16. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
    17. If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
    18. Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
    19. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
    20. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

    1 Corinthians 6:15-20 KJV
    15. Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
    16. What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
    17. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
    18. Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
    19. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
    20. For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.


    Thus we have in the New Covenant-Testament writings already two body-temples which are being taught by all of the writers. The two body-temples are firstly the entire great congregation of the faithful which are all different members with various gifts in the one Body of Messiah; the other body-temple is that of each one having his or her own body-temple which is not to be defiled, (and the Testimony of Yeshua forewarns us how to keep it holy). Anyone who enters into the great congregation and puts himself and his own opinions and vain imaginations over and above the Testimony of Yeshua is therefore an antichrist placing himself or herself in the midst of the great congregation in opposition to the Word-Testimony-Doctrine of Messiah Yeshua. :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2014
  5. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

    +1,221
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    CA-Conservatives
    If the abomination of desolation spoken of By Daniel, and referred to by Jesus, were something that takes place within the heart of an individual believer, it could not be the trigger signal that gave the time at which "those who are in Judea" should "flee to the mountains," nor could it be the beginning of a time of tribulation so intense that "unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved."

    And by the way, the concept that this is a physical event in a physical temple is not just a "modern" interpretation. It was clearly taught in the very oldest Christian commentary on Bible prophecy of any significant length that has survived to the present. That is the last twelve chapters of the very famous five volume work by Irenaeus, titled "Against Heresies," which is believed to have been published between the years 186 and 188 AD.
     
  6. daq

    daq Messianic

    +281
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Your entire statement is full of truth imho SG9 but I would like to comment on the above quote because it reminds me that the story is the same whether we speak of the "Old" or the "New" and most all of what the authors in the "New" write about they likewise received from the "Old" but they received it in the Light of the Testimony of Yeshua, (the O/T as perceived through the Testimony and Witness of Messiah). The "high places of the field" is a phrase found in Judges and concerns all Israel which are in this context called the stars of heaven. The stars of heaven fought in the high places of the field, (the battle in the heart and mind over the soul of the man as you have suggested). The same passage is essentially a companion passage with Revelation 12.

    Judges 5:1-21 KJV
    1. Then sang Deborah and Barak the son of Abinoam on that day, saying,
    2. Praise ye the Lord for the avenging of Israel, when the people willingly offered themselves.
    3. Hear, O ye kings; give ear, O ye princes; I, even I, will sing unto the Lord; I will sing praise to the Lord God of Israel.
    4. Lord, when thou wentest out of Seir, when thou marchedst out of the field of Edom, the earth trembled, and the heavens dropped, the clouds also dropped water.
    5. The mountains melted from before the Lord, even that Sinai from before the Lord God of Israel.
    6. In the days of Shamgar the son of Anath, in the days of Jael, the highways were unoccupied, and the travellers walked through byways.
    7. The inhabitants of the villages ceased, they ceased in Israel, until that I Deborah arose, that I arose a mother in Israel.
    8. They chose new gods; then was war in the gates: was there a shield or spear seen among forty thousand in Israel?
    9. My heart is toward the governors of Israel, that offered themselves willingly among the people. Bless ye the Lord.
    10. Speak, ye that ride on white asses, ye that sit in judgment, and walk by the way.
    11. They that are delivered from the noise of archers in the places of drawing water, there shall they rehearse the righteous acts of the Lord, even the righteous acts toward the inhabitants of his villages in Israel: then shall the people of the Lord go down to the gates.
    12. Awake, awake, Deborah: awake, awake, utter a song: arise, Barak, and lead thy captivity captive, thou son of Abinoam.
    13. Then he made him that remaineth have dominion over the nobles among the people: the Lord made me have dominion over the mighty.
    14. Out of Ephraim was there a root of them against [of] Amalek; after thee, Benjamin, among thy people; out of Machir came down governors, and out of Zebulun they that handle the pen of the writer.
    15. And the princes of Issachar were with Deborah; even Issachar, and also Barak: he was sent on foot into the valley. For the divisions of Reuben there were great thoughts of heart.
    16. Why abodest thou among the sheepfolds, to hear the bleatings of the flocks? For the divisions of Reuben there were great searchings of heart.
    17. Gilead abode beyond Jordan: and why did Dan remain in ships? Asher continued on the sea shore, and abode in his breaches.
    18. Zebulun and Naphtali were a people that jeoparded their lives unto the death in the high places of the field.
    19. The kings came and fought, then fought the kings of Canaan in Taanach by the waters of Megiddo; they took no gain of money.
    20. They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera.
    21. The river of Kishon swept them away, that ancient river, the river Kishon. O my soul, thou hast trodden down strength.

    Then fought the kings of Canaan in Taanach by the waters of Megiddo; they took no gain of money. They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera, (the devil and his angels). The river of Kishon swept them away, that ancient river, the river Kishon. O my soul, thou hast trodden down `Oz-power-pride, the fierce countenance of `Az, (Deuteronomy 28:50, Daniel 8:23).


    Revelation 12:7-11 KJV

    7. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
    8. And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
    9. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    10. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
    11. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


    Revelation 12 is the same battle in the heavens from Judges 5. In the Testimony of Yeshua we overcome the wiles of the devil and his angels. When the Truth enters into the heart and mind, (for mind is likened to the heavens) the battle commences and the same spiritual warfare continues until finally one day the great red dragon is cast out of our heavens; that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world, (each in his or her own appointed times in the high places of the field). We see the same in the Gospel accounts when the disciples of Yeshua use the name of the Master which is his Testimony and employ it against the unclean spirits:

    Luke 10:17-20 KJV
    17. And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
    18. And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
    19. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
    20. Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.


    The devil is cast out of the heavens one person at a time . . . :)
     
  7. tranquil

    tranquil Newbie

    +113
    Christian
    Married
    Daq, I'm really digging your posts here, but to insist that there is only a spiritual dimension to all of this seems a bit unnecessarily strident.

    Clearly, there is both. But again, I like your approach to the spiritual side going on in the sequence of events.

    It's interesting to look at "abomination" being replaced with "armies" in Luke below.

    Luke 21:20
    20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

    Matt 24:15
    15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth , let him understand: )

    Mark 13:14
    14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand ,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:


    Like you mentioned here:
    In the context of the passage here, "abomination" is "highly esteemed men among men"/ (modern day Pharisees - men who are highly esteemed, look moral, good, and virtuous).

    The "armies"/ "abomination" of "virtuous men" seems to be a Satanic replica of Trumpet 6's 200,000,000 man army.

    In Psalm 68:17
    Let's look at Matt 24 again:
    Matt 24:15
    15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination [army of seemingly virtuous men/ army of modern day Pharisees] of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth , let him understand: )

    16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

    It parallels pretty nicely

    - God's chariots [God's army/ the real "kings of the East- not really Chinese armies] go into the sanctuary at Trumpet 6

    - Satan's Pharisees army of seemingly holy/ virtuous men go into the temple and turn Jerusalem into a "new/ foreign god" worshipping place.
     
  8. daq

    daq Messianic

    +281
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Interesting thoughts Tranquil. :)

    Every man is likened to a village, town, or city, like "the city of Enoch" in the book of Genesis and likewise "the city of Adam" in the book of Joshua. Father Abraham did as the Father said to do and divided his own great city into third parts and because he was faithful to do as he was commanded the Father cut covenant with him in the same day. The following is from the other thread where this came up in a small way: Chronology of Messiah Pg.5

    Matthew 10:38-39
    38. And he that taketh not his own stake, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
    39. He that findeth his soul shall apollumi-destroy it: and he that apollumi-destroyeth his soul for my sake shall find it.

    Matthew 16:24-28
    24. Then said Yeshua unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him utterly forsake himself, and take up his stake, and follow me.
    25. For whosoever will save his soul shall apollumi-destroy it: and whosoever will apollumi-destroy his soul for my sake shall find it.
    26. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
    27. For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
    28. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.


    Therefore take up your stake, (cross) divide your own "great city" into third parts, and offer up the sweet savor of the smoke of holy sacrifices unto the heavenly Father as also father Abraham was faithfully willing to do from the heart, (these things likewise are supernal). As for the number of the horsemen in Revelation 9:16 it is the same as the men of Nineveh because Yochanan writes "dis" (again) and not duo as is found in some, (corrupted) manuscripts. The number is "dis"-again, (because he heard it again after the first time in Revelation 5:11) "muriades muriadon" - a myriad of myriads, (12000x12000).

    Every man has four generations like the four seasons in a full year:

    Proverbs 30:11-15 KJV
    11. There is a generation [1] that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother.
    12. There is a generation [2] that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness.
    13. There is a generation, [3] O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up.
    14. There is a generation, [4] whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, [fourth beast of Daniel 7 ~ teeth of iron] to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men.
    15. The horseleach hath two daughters, crying, Give, give. There are three things that are never satisfied, yea, four things say not, It is enough:

    Notice the fourth generation has a "leach with two daughters" for a sum of seven?

    Matthew 12:38-45 KJV
    38. Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
    39. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation [1] seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
    40. For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
    41. The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, [2] and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
    42. The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, [3] and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
    43. When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
    44. Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
    45. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation [4].

    Men of Nineveh ~ Revelation 9:16
    Queen of the South: Sheba ~ Seven Heads

    :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2014
  9. tranquil

    tranquil Newbie

    +113
    Christian
    Married
    I'm definitely going to go through your post more thoroughly, just wanted to respond to a few things.

    Sheba = h 7652, definition is '7'. Good one.

    I'm not too familiar with the Sheba story, currently reading up on it, not very far, with a Spurgeon lecture. http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols46-48/chs2777.pdf

    So when it says, "men of Nineveh" and Queen of Sheba/ '7' rise up in judgment, is this implying that they are the 2 witnesses? (for legal purposes like in a court of law)

    Matthew 12:38-45 KJV
    38. Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
    39. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation [1] seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
    40. For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
    41. The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, [2] and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
    42. The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, [3] and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
    43. When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
    44. Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
    45. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation [4].


    Also, why is the Queen of Sheba not the "whore of Babylon"/ the rider of the '7 headed' dragon?

    The thing that is frustrating is that everything is mirrored between good and bad: just as there are 7/ 8 bad people (leaders of the 7 headed dragon), there are 7/8 good people that are "raised up" like in Micah 5:5

    And he will be our peace when the Assyrians invade our land and march through our fortresses. We will raise against them seven shepherds, even eight commanders,

    It seems almost impossible to determine between the 2 using prophecy except for the use of dates to contextualize things.
     
  10. daq

    daq Messianic

    +281
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Who says the queen of Sheba is not in Revelation 17? As for good and bad, yes, exactly, there is good and bad in everything Scripture: good trees and evil trees, good figs and evil figs, good iron and evil iron like the iron chariots of the Canaanites or the iron mixed with the clay feet and toes of Daniel, (the iron axe head that swims when the staff of the Shepherd passes over the waters is the good iron). The same is true for mountains: there are good mountains like mount Zion, and mount Horeb the mountain of Elohim, and likewise there are seven evil mountains, (Revelation 17) and those mountains are also expounded by the Master as devils:

    Matthew 17:14-21 KJV
    14. And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,
    15. Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, [moon-struck] and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
    16. And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
    17. Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
    18. And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
    19. Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
    20. And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
    21. Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.


    What genos-kind of "mountain" is it that can come out only by prayer and fasting? The "mountain" in the passage above refers not to a physical mountain being moved by faith but rather the daimonion which Yeshua had just cast out of the moon-struck lunatic boy. The disciples then ask the Master why they could not cast the devil out and the answer concerns the "mountain" which they could not cast out for lack of faith. The devils are therefore likened to "evil mountains" in the doctrine of Yeshua. It is simple enough for any child to understand if one will simply receive it straight from the text as it is written. In addition this subject comes up again only a few chapters later and the Master expounds even further and reveals to his disciples that the fruitless fig tree concerns the very same analogy as the evil mountain-devils. It is not myself who mixes the parables but the Master-Teacher Yeshua when he states the following:

    Matthew 21:18-21 KJV
    18. Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered.
    19. And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
    20. And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!
    21. Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.


    So Yeshua says the fruitless fig tree is like that evil mountain from the previous passage and we know that the evil mountain from the previous Matthew passage was a vexing devil of the "moon-struck" genos, (and it was the Assyrian who offered the sons of Israel the false promise of every man under his fig tree and his vine). Also where is it that probably most everyone here has already read and heard of a great mountain, (burning with fire) having been cast into the sea? Thus Yeshua expounds the proper understanding of the following statement:

    Revelation 8:8 KJV
    8. And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;


    The seven mountains of Revelation 17 are seven nations, (shibah goyim) greater and mightier than the sons of Israel. They are written in Deuteronomy 7:1 and warned about by Paul in Acts 13:19-41, (which warning includes a pointer quote to Habakkuk 1:5-11 and those hasty Chaldeans which are devils that come to take "dwelling places" or houses not their own).

    Deuteronomy 7:1-4 KJV
    1. When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;
    2. And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
    3. Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
    4. For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.

    Seen any Girgashites lately? The Girgashite man of the Gergesenos-Gadarenos knew all about the Girgashites: they dwell in the dark caves and tombs of men and nothing can bind them, (for the Girgashite is the seventh and he is Legion) and the kind of marriage or "covenant" from the above Devarim passage is not the kind of wedding which may be witnessed or seen with the eyes of the flesh, as in the days of Noah. :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2014
  11. daq

    daq Messianic

    +281
    Non-Denom
    Private
    So your answer is that it cannot be what the Master says concerning bdelugma-abomination because you simply cannot fathom it? ^_^

    All of the places and things you have mentioned have supernal in meanings including mountains such as mount Zion, Yerushalaim of above, mount Horeb the mountain of God, and even the man is the land so the people are the land whether it be Yhudah or Edom, Moab, and the primary sons of Ammon, (which are birthed by the hand of the wicked one).

    Both wonderful and terrible things take place in the heart. The most terrible of all is the "abomination of desolation" spoken of by Daniel the prophet. The word in the Greek New Testament translated as "abomination" appears only three times in the Gospel accounts. Two of those occurrences are found in the companion chapters Matthew 24 and Mark 13. This means that technically speaking the word is only used on two occasions by the Master in the Gospel accounts because Matthew and Mark record the same statement from the Olivet Discourse. After the Gospel accounts it occurs only in the Book of the Revelation of Yeshua.

    Matthew 24:15 KJV
    15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination [GSN#946 bdelugma] of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

    Mark 13:14 KJV
    14. But when ye shall see the abomination [GSN#946 bdelugma] of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand), then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:


    Original Strong's Ref. #946
    Romanized bdelugma
    Pronounced bdel'-oog-mah
    from GSN0948; a detestation, i.e. (specially) idolatry:
    KJV--abomination.

    The KJV word for "abomination" in the Greek is the same GSN#946 "bdelugma" in all three instances. Yeshua then only uses it twice, (or possibly the Hebrew-Aramaic equivalent) because Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are companion passages. Thus Yeshua only used the word for "abomination" on two separate occasions and because one of them is a direct quote from Daniel, whom Yeshua clearly states to be a prophet, we can be certain that the other occasion is highly significant in regards to the true meaning of the "abomination of desolation" written in the Book of Daniel. The usage the same word only twice, as recorded in the Gospel accounts, strongly implies that both instances denote the very same meaning as interpreted by the Master himself.

    The question then becomes whether or not one is willing to accept the teaching and doctrine of Messiah in this regard, that is, if the same word is found elsewhere and does not agree with the eschatology of the modern prophecy scholars and shepherds? Yeshua clearly states in the second usage of "bdelugma" that the abomination concerns men and the condition of the heart. And we know from the Strong's definition above that the word means idolatry just as does the Hebrew word used in Daniel for "abomination", (HSN#8251 "shiqquwts") in the passages concerning the abomination of desolation. The passage in Luke is the only other place in the Gospel record where the word is employed.

    And the passage from Luke should be sobering to any true disciple of Yeshua:

    Luke 16:13-15 KJV
    13. No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
    14. And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
    15. And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination [GSN#946 bdelugma] in the sight of God.


    The same word does not occur again until the Revelation:

    Revelation 17:4-5 KJV
    4. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations [GSN#946 bdelugma] and filthiness of her fornication:
    5. And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS [GSN#946 bdelugma] OF THE EARTH.

    Revelation 21:27 KJV
    27. And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, [GSN#946 bdelugma] or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.


    According to the usage of "bdelugma" in the Gospel accounts the Greek word concerns individual people and the idolatrous condition of the heart. This is according to the Testimony of Yeshua. According to the usage of the same "bdelugma" found in the Book of the Revelation of Yeshua it still concerns individual people and the idolatrous condition of the heart. And it is Yeshua himself who states that it is he that searches the reins and hearts of us all.

    The abomination of desolation is therefore most certainly an event which every true disciple of Yeshua will one day be forced to deal with if not already, (each in his or her own appointed times and none shall be alone in his appointed times) and we are given the supernal signs to watch for when the appointed time approaches because the man is the temple. The same supernal signs are given in the Matthew 24 and Mark 13 companion passages and they go hand in hand with the seven abominations from Proverbs:

    Proverbs 6:16-19 KJV
    16. These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
    17. A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
    18. An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
    19. A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.


    Notice that one of the attributes doubles up and returns?
    It is the lying tongue and it always comes back as the false witness.
    The lying tongue gives place to the devil according to the Epistle to the Ephesians:

    Ephesians 4:17-27 KJV
    17. This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
    18. Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
    19. Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
    20. But ye have not so learned Christ;
    21. If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
    22. That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
    23. And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
    24. And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
    25. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
    26. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
    27. Neither give place to the devil.


    In fact the "false witness" spirit of abomination actually breathes out lies:

    Proverbs 6:19 RSV (Revised Standard Version)
    19. a false witness who breathes out lies, and a man who sows discord among brothers.

    Proverbs 6:19 YLT (Young's Literal Bible)
    19. A false witness [who] doth breathe out lies - And one sending forth contentions between brethren.


    This should sound familiar because it is directly related to the following:

    Revelation 13:15 RSV
    15. and it was allowed to give breath [GSN#4151 pneuma] to the image of the beast so that the image of the beast should even speak, and to cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain.

    Revelation 13:15 YLT
    15. and there was given to it to give a spirit [GSN#4151 pneuma] to the image of the beast, that also the image of the beast may speak, and [that] it may cause as many as shall not bow before the image of the beast, that they may be killed.


    The seven abominable spirits are indeed taught by the Master in his doctrine and they concern every disciple because sins and evil are always personified as entities with the various evil attributes. Thus, even though most disciples might never think that they ever had or needed a devil cast out of them, that is the teaching of the Master from the very beginning of the walk:

    Luke 11:24-26 KJV
    24. When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
    25. And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
    26. Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.


    What is the first unclean spirit according to Paul?

    1 Corinthians 2:11-14 KJV
    11. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
    12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
    13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
    14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    Ephesians 2:2-3 KJV

    2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
    3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.


    The first unclean spirit that is cast out of every disciple of Yeshua in the commencement of his or her walk is that spirit of the world, the old man sin nature, the prince of the power of the air, that spirit which now works in the sons of disobedience. Nowhere does Yeshua say in Luke 11:24-26 that his statement only applies to "some" or the unfortunate "possessed few" and therefore it applies to every disciple who comes to the Master and submits to his doctrine. In fact it cannot apply to the world or to unbelievers which have not confessed Messiah because they have never had the spirit of the world cast out of them to begin with. The spirit that goes into the wilderness or dry-arid places and returns with seven others more wicked than himself is likewise "the eighth and of the seven", (Revelation 17:10-11) because the Testimony of Yeshua is the Spirit of the Prophecy, (Revelation 19:10). :)
     
  12. daq

    daq Messianic

    +281
    Non-Denom
    Private
    In addition Biblewriter do you not understand that wheresoever the Son of man stands the ground is holy ground? The following statement from Yochanan the Immerser is a direct reference to the two passages which are quoted below it from Shemot-Exodus and Yehoshua:

    John 1:26-27 KJV
    26. John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
    27. He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.

    Exodus 3:1-5 KJV
    1. Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb.
    2. And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
    3. And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
    4. And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
    5. And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.

    Joshua 5:13-15 KJV
    13. And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
    14. And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord
    [Sar tsaba YHWH] am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
    15. And the captain of the Lord's host [Sar tsaba YHWH] said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.


    This is the same Captain of the Host, Yeshua, the Sar sariym Prince of princes from Daniel 8.
    The "son of perdition", (first of many) according to Yeshua was Yhudas Sakariy-Iskariotes:

    John 17:11-12 KJV
    11. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
    12. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

    Matthew 26:47-49 KJV
    47. And while he yet spake, lo, Judas, one of the twelve, came, and with him a great multitude ["a flood" ~ Daniel 9:26, Daniel 11:22] with swords and staves, from the chief priests and elders of the people.
    48. Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.
    49. And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him.

    Mark 14:43-45 KJV
    43. And immediately, while he yet spake, cometh Judas, one of the twelve, and with him a great multitude
    ["a flood" ~ Daniel 9:26, Daniel 11:22] with swords and staves, from the chief priests and the scribes and the elders.
    44. And he that betrayed him had given them a token, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he; take him, and lead him away safely.
    45. And as soon as he was come, he goeth straightway to him, and saith, Master, master; and kissed him.

    Luke 22:47-48 KJV
    47. And while he yet spake, behold a multitude,
    ["a flood" ~ Daniel 9:26, Daniel 11:22] and he that was called Judas, one of the twelve, went before them, and drew near unto Jesus to kiss him.
    48. But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?


    And there is Yhudas Sakariy-Sicarii-Iskariotes standing in the holy place . . .
    Without even showing so much respect as to remove his shoes . . .
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2014
  13. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

    +97
    Non-Denom
    Single
    Daq,
    it is an interesting treatment, but I don't think it will stand to the meaning of Mt24A where all those things happen in that generation with armies coming etc.

    Test drive one item: if Judas is the one standing in the temple, then all the believers should leave Jerusalem. However, we know that he told them to stay (hidden) in the city until the Spirit was given. So its not Judas the betrayer even though there were other Judases in the revolts of the 1st century.
     
  14. daq

    daq Messianic

    +281
    Non-Denom
    Private
    You still have the wrong temple because you keep looking where Yeshua says to "take no heed of these things!"
    It is the Man whose name is the Branch who builds the Temple:

    Zechariah 3:8-9 KJV
    8. Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the Branch.
    9. For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

    Zechariah 6:12-12 KJV
    12. And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the Lord of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The Branch; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the Lord:
    13. Even he shall build the temple of the Lord; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.


    Yeshua plainly tells us who and what is the Temple and all the New Covenant writers are in agreement with this fact even though most here appear to outright reject those very same writings. The following statement is said to be "a sign" and one should not let this fact escape his thinking:

    John 2:18-22 KJV
    18. Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
    19. Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
    20. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
    21. But he spake of the temple of his body.
    22. When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.


    All the authors of the New Covenant writings BELIEVED this statement and therefore wrote about this statement when they speak of the Temple of God! As for Matthew 24 it opens with a blatant mistranslation into English which is easily proven to be in error within the text itself because most translations translate the exact same phrase, (blepete) in two different ways within three verses showing that they are in error. But first some background concerning the words hieron and naos:

    During the wilderness temptation-trial-testing of the Master he is set on a wing or pinnacle of the Temple which is in the Greek the Hieron-Temple. It does not matter whether the following account is intended to be literal or in a vision of the Temple because either way what is being described is the physical Hieron-Temple building made with hands:

    Matthew 4:5 KJV
    5. Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple [GSN#2411 hieron],


    This word Greek "hieron" is always employed to describe a physical temple building such as at Yerushalaim:

    Matthew 12:5-6 KJV
    5. Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple [GSN#2411 hieron] profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
    6. But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple [GSN#2411 hieron].


    Yeshua claims to be GREATER than the Hieron-Temple building made with hands!

    Matthew 21:14-15 KJV
    14. And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; [GSN#2411 hieron] and he healed them.
    15. And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, [GSN#2411 hieron] and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David; they were sore displeased,

    Matthew 21:23 KJV
    23. And when he was come into the temple, [GSN#2411 hieron] the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?


    Yet when we arrive at Matthew 23 the word "Naos" is introduced for the Temple. And in this context the Master is revealing the what, where, and why, of how the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes where mistaken in their doctrines:

    Matthew 23:15-22 KJV
    15. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
    16. Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, [GSN#3485 naos] it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, [GSN#3485 naos] he is a debtor!
    17. Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple [GSN#3485 naos] that sanctifieth the gold?
    18. And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
    19. Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
    20. Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
    21. And whoso shall swear by the temple, [GSN#3485 naos] sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
    22. And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.


    1) The Naos-Temple sanctifies "the gold" (not the gold the Temple).
    2) The Most High dwells in the Naos-Temple
    3) Heaven is the throne of God

    Matthew 23:32-35 KJV
    32. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
    33. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
    34. Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
    35. That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple [GSN#3485 naos] and the altar.


    Matthew 24:1-2 KJV
    1. And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: [GSN#2411 hieron] and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple [GSN#2411 hieron].
    2. And Jesus said unto them, See [GSN#991 blepo] ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.


    Original Strong's Ref. #991
    Romanized blepo
    Pronounced blep'-o
    a primary verb; to look at (literally or figuratively):
    KJV--behold, beware, lie, look (on, to), perceive, regard, see, sight, take heed.
    Compare GSN3700.

    And Yeshua says to them: "TAKE NO HEED OF ALL THESE THINGS!"

    Matthew 24:2-4 Transliterated Unaccented
    2. Ho de apokritheis eipen autois, "Ou blepete tauta panta Amen lego humin, ou meafethe hode lithos epi lithon hos ou kataluthesetai"^
    3. Kathemenou de autou epi tou Orous ton Elaion proselthon auto hoi mathetai kat idian legontes, "Eipehemin pote tauta estai Kai ti to semeion tes sesparousias kai sunteleias tou aionos"
    4. Kai apokritheis ho Iesous eipen autois, "Blepete me-tis humas planese

    Matthew 24:4 KJV
    4. And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed [GSN#991 blepo] that no man deceive you.

    Matthew 24:2 -- "Ou blepete tauta panta" ~ "Take no heed of all these things!"
    Matthew 24:4 -- "Blepete me-tis humas planese" ~ "Take heed that no one deceive you!"


    The form of blepo is identical in both instances above and should be rendered likewise:

    "Ou blepete" ~ "Pay no heed!" ~ "Pay no attention!"
    "Blepete" ~ "Take heed!" ~ "Pay attention!"


    Matthew 24:1-2 KJV
    1. And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
    2. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.


    Are we to believe that the disciples came to Yeshua for to show him the workmanship of the Hieron-Temple and its magnificent stones, (re: Mark 13:1-2) and then the Master turns and asks them if they "do not see the stones" which they just asked him to look at? That interpretation is redundant and makes the Master to look somewhat foolish in his remarks. In other words, rather than an interrogative-question, [?] the Master exclaims [!] to them "PAY NO HEED!" to this Hieron-Temple building made with hands because verily there shall not be left one stone upon another which shall not have been thrown down. This understanding completely alters the inflection, perception, and supernal meaning of the entire Olivet Discourse. Thus the Olivet Discourse and all of the supernal signs given by the Master have nothing to do with the Hieron-Temple building or any other temple-building made with the hands of man. When we arrive at the Gospel of John we are informed more clearly of what the Naos-Temple concerns:

    John 2:13-21 KJV
    13. And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
    14. And found in the temple [GSN#2411 hieron] those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
    15. And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, [GSN#2411 hieron] and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
    16. And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
    17. And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.
    18. Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
    19. Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, [GSN#3485 naos] and in three days I will raise it up.
    20. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple [GSN#3485 naos] in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
    21. But he spake of the temple [GSN#3485 naos] of his body.


    If therefore the Master speaks of the Naos-Temple of his Body, and the saints be in and of the one Body of Messiah, then I choose that interpretation of the Naos-Temple whenever I read of it hereafter in the Word, that is to say, that the Naos-Temple concerns the body temple supernal and the true Temple of God rather than a physical Hieron-Temple building made with the hands of men. And this certainly includes the Book of the Revelation of Yeshua. :)
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2014
  15. daq

    daq Messianic

    +281
    Non-Denom
    Private
    In other words it is like this Interplanner: Let's say you have a teacher and you come to him with some precious stones that have been polished to a fine finish, and you want to hear his opinion of them, so you ask him to take a look at them. You say to him: "Teacher, look at the magnificent workmanship of these stones!" And when you show them to him he says in reply: "Do you not see these stones?" What would your first response be? You would think to yourself: "What a stupid thing to say after I just showed them to you! Of course I see them and that is why I brought them to your attention!"

    See what I mean here? Yeshua does not say something so blatantly erroneous but rather he says: "PAY NO HEED TO ALL THESE THINGS!" (because they are physical and merely temporary and not one stone would be left upon another which would not be thrown down). Therefore the entire passage takes a completely different course than what the natural and carnal man perceives. In fact the reason it has been translated the way it has been is because by the context the natural and carnal minded man can see no other way to understand it. However, Yeshua does in fact give the date which the talmidim asked of him when all these things would come to pass and it is found at the conclusion of the entire Olivet Discourse in Matthew. So then, where exactly does the Olivet Discourse according to Matthew conclude? What is the final "punch-line" statement of the Olivet Discourse in the Gospel according to Matthew? Ever notice how Matthew 26:2 seems abrupt and out of place as if it were an unfinished statement? It is because this is the "punch-line" and final statement of the Olivet Discourse which is now separated by two chapters because of chapter and verse numbering which has been added "for convenience" of transmission to the reader.

    The Question:

    Matthew 24:3 ~ And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the talmidim came unto him privately, saying, "Foretell to us when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy parousias, and the sunteleias tou aionos consummation of the age?"

    The Answer:

    Matthew 26:1-4 KJV
    1. And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, he said unto his disciples,
    2. Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.
    3. Then assembled together the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders of the people, unto the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas,
    4. And consulted that they might take Jesus by subtilty, and kill him.
     
  16. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

    +97
    Non-Denom
    Single
    try to use normal historical-grammatical interpretation
     
  17. daq

    daq Messianic

    +281
    Non-Denom
    Private
    That was "normal" grammatical interpretation:

    Matthew 24:4
    4. And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no ["blepete me"] man deceive you.

    Matthew 24:4 Westcott Hort 1881
    καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Βλέπετε μή τις ὑμᾶς πλανήσῃ·

    Matthew 24:4 Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
    καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Βλέπετε μή τις ὑμᾶς πλανήσῃ·

    http://biblehub.com/text/matthew/24-4.htm

    "Blepete" in this context means "PAY ATTENTION" (lest anyone deceive you).
    That is the rendering from the majority of the English translations including the KJV.

    Therefore Matthew 24:2 is clearly misunderstood and misinterpreted:

    Matthew 24:2 Westcott and Hort 1881
    ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Οὐ βλέπετε ταῦτα πάντα; ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, οὐ μὴ ἀφεθῇ ὧδε λίθος ἐπὶ λίθον ὃς οὐ καταλυθήσεται.

    Matthew 24:2 Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
    ὁ δὲ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Οὐ βλέπετε πάντα ταῦτα ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν οὐ μὴ ἀφεθῇ ὧδε λίθος ἐπὶ λίθον ὃς οὐ μὴ καταλυθήσεται

    http://biblehub.com/text/matthew/24-2.htm

    Matthew 24:2 ~ "Ou blepete tauta panta" ~ "Pay no attention to all these things!"
    Matthew 24:4 ~ "Blepete me tis humas planese!" ~ "Pay attention lest anyone deceive you!"



    Matthew 24:1-4
    1. And Yeshua went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the architecture of the temple.
    2. And Yeshua said unto them, "Pay no attention to all these things!" verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
    3. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the talmidim came unto him privately, saying, Foretell to us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy parousias, and of the consummation of the age?
    4. And Yeshua answered and said unto them, "Pay attention lest anyone deceive you!"


    The context interprets itself because the form of the usage of blepo, (blepete) is already undeniably correctly rendered in Matthew 24:4 by the majority of English translations. See now? The entire inflection of the remainder of the passage is the complete opposite of what the physical minded carnal man believes it to be! :)
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2014
  18. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

    +97
    Non-Denom
    Single
    Sorry but I'd have to see three good translations go your way on 24:2. Construct your point some other way. There is not even a note in the NIV, which is very good at following the Metzger / UBS text, on notes. See I Cor 6:4's issue. Very similar.
     
  19. daq

    daq Messianic

    +281
    Non-Denom
    Private
    So stay where you are then. :)
     
Loading...