"deserving" hell, PSA, and gratitude

[blacksheep78]

I'm really struggling with something. Most Christians seem to think/feel that they/we all deserve hell. I have tried to see it this way, but I am currently unable to. Please don't think I am judging God - I just really can't "get it", and I truly want to. Because I know that if I did, I would feel much more grateful for what Christ did. As it is, my gratitude level is really low. This in turn, causes me to struggle immensely with assurance of salvation, because I think it is not normal to be like this.

The reason I can't "get it" is basically because I can't understand how we deserve hell if we were born sinners and cannot help but sin at least sometimes. No one (other than Christ Himself) ever existed who did not sin. If there was a percentage of people that had never sinned, then I could feel culpable for my own sin because I would know that I did not HAVE to sin, since those people managed to never sin. But EVERYONE sins because they cannot help being sinners. Even not loving God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength makes us sinners.

I can kind of see hell as being a natural consequence of refusing to be rescued/saved, since if you do not want to be with God then you won't be. And anyplace where God is not,is bound to be hell. But if Penal Substitution Atonement theory is correct, I cannot understand the fact(?) that Christ took "my punishment" since I can't understand how I deserved to be punished for being something I cannot help being. It would be like saying an infant deserves to be punished for not being able to walk.

I've tried so hard to get this, I've pleaded with God to help me see it, but I just can't. Can I be a real Christian and not get this?? Is there some way to look at this that I haven't considered? Does the Bible actually tell us we deserve hell? I can't find anywhere where it says that God poured out His wrath on Christ, and I don't know of anyplace where it says that Christ took our punishment, or paid our penalty. Rather the Bible seems to speak of God condemning SIN in the flesh, since Christ became SIN. Any ideas??

 

[Paidiske]

There is more than one way to understand what Christ did on the cross.

Penal substitutionary atonement is one way, and it's fine as far as it goes. But if that's not helpful to you at the moment, I'd suggest another Scriptural lens.

For example, Paul talks about us being slaves to sin, and about Christ setting us free. This might be more helpful to you, since you recognise we don't make a choice to be sinners (so it's like being born a slave). But Christ breaks that bondage and gives us an opportunity to live in a new reality.

Would that maybe be a more helpful idea to explore, for now?

 

[SkyWriting]

I can't find anywhere where it says that God poured out His wrath on Christ, and I don't know of anyplace where it says that Christ took our punishment, or paid our penalty.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 Peter 2:24
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,

Romans 5:8
But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Revelation 5:9
And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,

1 John 2:2
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Peter 1:18-19
Knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.

1 Timothy 2:6
Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Isaiah 53:5
But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed.

Hebrews 9:26
For then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Galatians 1:4
Who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,

Romans 5:9
Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

Romans 4:25
Who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

John 19:30
When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Matthew 26:28
For this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

 

[blacksheep78]

Romans 3:24
and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

Romans 5:15
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many!

2 Corinthians 13:14
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with all of you.

Ephesians 2:5
made us alive with Christ, even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved!

Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Acts 15:11
On the contrary, we believe it is through the grace of the Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

Revelation 21:8 ESV / 262 helpful votes
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Matthew 25:41 ESV / 167 helpful votes
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:46 ESV / 150 helpful votes
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Romans 6:23 ESV / 118 helpful votes
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Matthew 10:28 ESV / 118 helpful votes
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Romans 2:6-8 ESV / 113 helpful votes
He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 ESV / 106 helpful votes
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Mark 9:43 ESV / 100 helpful votes
And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.

Revelation 20:15 ESV / 97 helpful votes
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Jude 1:7 ESV / 80 helpful votes
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

John 3:36 ESV / 77 helpful votes
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Mark 9:48 ESV / 68 helpful votes
‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’

Luke 16:19-31 ESV / 67 helpful votes
“There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. ...

2 Peter 2:4 ESV / 65 helpful votes
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

John 5:29 ESV / 61 helpful votes
And come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Matthew 5:22 ESV / 59 helpful votes
But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

John 14:6 ESV / 58 helpful votes
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Ezekiel 18:20 ESV / 57 helpful votes
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Revelation 20:10 ESV / 47 helpful votes
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Romans 10:13 ESV / 47 helpful votes
For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

1 John 5:12 ESV / 46 helpful votes
Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Most of these verses are regarding the punishment of hell. I was specifically looking for verses about Christ's death being our punishment. I think the closest would be that the wages of sin is death. And the one about God's wrath abiding on people if they do not believe.

 

[blacksheep78]

There is more than one way to understand what Christ did on the cross.

Penal substitutionary atonement is one way, and it's fine as far as it goes. But if that's not helpful to you at the moment, I'd suggest another Scriptural lens.

For example, Paul talks about us being slaves to sin, and about Christ setting us free. This might be more helpful to you, since you recognise we don't make a choice to be sinners (so it's like being born a slave). But Christ breaks that bondage and gives us an opportunity to live in a new reality.

Would that maybe be a more helpful idea to explore, for now?

This does make so much more sense to me. I believe this is called the "Christus Victor" view of the atonement.
I guess I just feel like something is really wrong with me if I can't get the Penal Substitution part.

 

[Paidiske]

I guess I just feel like something is really wrong with me if I can't get the Penal Substitution part.

I remember when I was a very new Christian, struggling with another aspect of belief; and my minister at the time said to me, "It's okay if you don't get it now. Keep thinking about it, and eventually, you'll come to a deeper understanding than most of us who just accepted it without struggle."

Don't beat yourself up if something doesn't gel. God's love doesn't depend on your understanding of the atonement! And it's okay to take time to grow into things, or to explore ideas, or even to end up saying that something just doesn't work for you. As long as you still seek God through it all, that's what matters.

 

[blacksheep78]

Yeah. I hope all this struggle is for some good purpose in the end - you know, to benefit someone else. It isn't even not understanding the atonement so much as it's the fact that I have trouble feeling grateful to Christ for taking a punishment that I don't logically understand how I deserve. But, perhaps a mustard seed of gratitude is enough for now. I can assent to the truth of it in my head. I just can't feel it in my heart so much. Yet.

 

[Deegie]

Hi, Blacksheep. As Paidiske quite rightly mentioned, there are multiple models of atonement. I personally like to think there are elements of truth in most of them but that none stands alone to explain something so big and beyond our understanding. Much like using metaphors to explain God. There is no single one which can capture all of God's being/attributes/character. I should also mention that there are a number of progressive Christians, including some Episcopalians, who reject penal substitution as either not accurate or not spiritually helpful. So you are in fine company and need not doubt whether you are a "real Christian".

As to your original post and your thoughts about sin, I come from a slightly different understanding. I do things that I know I shouldn't with some regularity. Many of them draw me away from God and/or God's desires for my life instead of toward them. I call those things "sin". I freely choose to do them - otherwise they wouldn't be sinful if they were a result of ignorance or mistake. When I recognize these sins, I ask God to forgive them, confident that Jesus somehow made that possible. I don't worry about exactly how -- Scripture and Tradition both teach that forgiveness is possible, and that's the important part. (We Anglicans tend to be accepting of holy mystery and don't need a mechanical description.) I also believe in sanctification: in short, that I am getting better over time. This occurs through the work of the Holy Spirit in my life, largely by participation in the sacramental life of the Church. I'll never make it to perfection, but that's okay. God loves me anyway. And God loves you as well. The desire to please God pleases God.

 

[Sorn]

I cannot understand the fact(?) that Christ took "my punishment" since I can't understand how I deserved to be punished for being something I cannot help being.

How about this, it may help a little:
God can still reject you for being what you are, ie. a sinner even though you can't help it.
We do it all the time. A fly can't help being a fly but if i catch one in my home I kill it. Many people do the same with bugs, spiders etc. Farmers with foxes, snakes (anything they consider vermin).
Sinners can't and won't be allowed in heaven or in Gods presence and he is sovereign over creation so he has the authority to decide what is good and what isn't.
Fortunately we can clothe ourselves with Jesus's righteousness and be cleansed from the stain of sin and thus become acceptable in his eyes.

 

[gordonhooker]

How about this, it may help a little:
God can still reject you for being what you are, ie. a sinner even though you can't help it.
We do it all the time. A fly can't help being a fly but if i catch one in my home I kill it. Many people do the same with bugs, spiders etc. Farmers with foxes, snakes (anything they consider vermin).
Sinners can't and won't be allowed in heaven or in Gods presence and he is sovereign over creation so he has the authority to decide what is good and what isn't.
Fortunately we can clothe ourselves with Jesus's righteousness and be cleansed from the stain of sin and thus become acceptable in his eyes.

Hi Sorn,

I am trying to get my head around your post above - you seem to be saying that God is like a person who finds a bug or spider in their home and kills it because they can.

Can you please clarify what your point is.

blessings, Gordon

 

[Sorn]

kills it because they can.

No, they kill the bug or spider because it is a bug or spider even though a bug or spider can't help being what it is, ie its not its fault.

 

[blacksheep78]

How about this, it may help a little:
God can still reject you for being what you are, ie. a sinner even though you can't help it.
We do it all the time. A fly can't help being a fly but if i catch one in my home I kill it. Many people do the same with bugs, spiders etc. Farmers with foxes, snakes (anything they consider vermin).
Sinners can't and won't be allowed in heaven or in Gods presence and he is sovereign over creation so he has the authority to decide what is good and what isn't.
Fortunately we can clothe ourselves with Jesus's righteousness and be cleansed from the stain of sin and thus become acceptable in his eyes.

This is helpful. Thank you. It's like when I find a daddy longlegs in my shower and I warn it that if it does not leave the area, I will have to kill it, even though I would rather not. (Yes I actually do talk to them like this lol) I feel compassion for it but it does not belong in my presence.

 

[gordonhooker]

No, they kill the bug or spider because it is a bug or spider even though a bug or spider can't help being what it is, ie its not its fault.

Sorry to push the point - I was asking about what you thinking was with God not 'they the ones who killed a spider'. Maybe best if I ask a direct question - are you saying God sends us to hell because he can or because we are there - even if we cannot help being human?

 

[Sorn]

are you saying God sends us to hell because he can or because we are there - even if we cannot help being human?

Hi gordonhooker, i'm not really commenting on God so much as us and what we are in our unsaved state.
In any case to your question, (don't really understand the 'because we are there' bit, was that a typo?), its not that God sends us to hell, but rather that unless we are 'born again' and become a 'new creation' in Christ we can't enter heaven. If we can't enter heaven then whatever is the alternative (hell, non-existence, 2nd death etc) is where we go.

Notice how the language 'born again' and 'new creation' speaks of changing what we are.

So we have to go from being a creature/being that is not acceptable in Gods presence to one that is through the redeeming sacrifice of Jesus.

 

[Sorn]

This is helpful. Thank you.

Your welcome

Of course just like something bad can happen to something at times because of what it is, something good can also happen at times to something just because of what it is.

 

[gordonhooker]

Hi gordonhooker, i'm not really commenting on God so much us us and what we are in our unsaved state.
In any case to your question, (don't really understand the 'because we are there' bit, was that a typo?), its not that God sends us to hell, but rather that unless we are 'born again' and become a 'new creation' in Christ we can't enter heaven. If we can't enter heaven then whatever is the alternative (hell, non-existence, 2nd death etc) is where we go.

Notice how the language 'born again' and 'new creation' speaks of changing what we are.

So we have to go from being a creature/being that is not acceptable in Gods presence to one that is through the redeeming sacrifice of Jesus.

Thanks - we are obviously not on the same page so I will leave you with it.

blessings, Gordon

 

[LukePLYR83]

I'm really struggling with something. Most Christians seem to think/feel that they/we all deserve hell. I have tried to see it this way, but I am currently unable to. Please don't think I am judging God - I just really can't "get it", and I truly want to. Because I know that if I did, I would feel much more grateful for what Christ did. As it is, my gratitude level is really low. This in turn, causes me to struggle immensely with assurance of salvation, because I think it is not normal to be like this.

The reason I can't "get it" is basically because I can't understand how we deserve hell if we were born sinners and cannot help but sin at least sometimes. No one (other than Christ Himself) ever existed who did not sin. If there was a percentage of people that had never sinned, then I could feel culpable for my own sin because I would know that I did not HAVE to sin, since those people managed to never sin. But EVERYONE sins because they cannot help being sinners. Even not loving God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength makes us sinners.

I can kind of see hell as being a natural consequence of refusing to be rescued/saved, since if you do not want to be with God then you won't be. And anyplace where God is not,is bound to be hell. But if Penal Substitution Atonement theory is correct, I cannot understand the fact(?) that Christ took "my punishment" since I can't understand how I deserved to be punished for being something I cannot help being. It would be like saying an infant deserves to be punished for not being able to walk.

I've tried so hard to get this, I've pleaded with God to help me see it, but I just can't. Can I be a real Christian and not get this?? Is there some way to look at this that I haven't considered? Does the Bible actually tell us we deserve hell? I can't find anywhere where it says that God poured out His wrath on Christ, and I don't know of anyplace where it says that Christ took our punishment, or paid our penalty. Rather the Bible seems to speak of God condemning SIN in the flesh, since Christ became SIN. Any ideas??

 

[mark46]

Many folks have trouble with the Protestant version (penal substitution) of Anselm's substitution view of atonement. In both of these cases, each man deserves to die and Christ dies on our place.

Personally, I greatly favor the view of the early Church and of the current Orthodox that Jesus died and defeated evil and the devil, removing the barrier between us and God. Christ is the Victor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christus_Victor

In the end, that is the meaning of sin, to be separated from God.

This does make so much more sense to me. I believe this is called the "Christus Victor" view of the atonement.
I guess I just feel like something is really wrong with me if I can't get the Penal Substitution part.