Describe the major Orthodox jurisdictions

[Justin-H.S.]

This topic is stolen from elsewhere, but I thought it was a fun way to tier the major jurisdictions. The below ranking is the top post from that site:

• GOARCH: National Big Box Retailer
• Antiochian & OCA: Small, Local Shop
• ROCOR & other Slavic Jurisdictions: Roadside Fruit Stand

 

[ArmyMatt]

haha, that is kinda funny

 

[rusmeister]

Not merely funny, but funny because there is some truth to it, though ROCOR seems like a rather big and relatively well-known fruit stand.

And the analogy goes far enough in that the Greek Church, like the big national chain, seems (I do say “seems”) to have by far the most money and the most corruption.

And for me it’s personal. I just returned from the US, my grand trip, exclusively to visit my mother, and she drove me into the parking lot of the Greek parish one block from her home that almost led her to Orthodoxy, but the worldliness and $$$ there, including that required of parishioners to participate in events, turned her away from Orthodoxy and Christianity in general, and towards Islam. It was a weekday, the church itself was closed, but a bunch of cars were parked at the parish house next door. I wanted to go in with a whip overturning tables. I really did. Instead, I let my mom drive me back home.

 

[Justin-H.S.]

If we were to tier them by Department of Defense budget:

GOARCH: Air/Space Force
Antioch: Army/Navy
OCA: Marines/Coast Guard
ROCOR and the Balkan Four (Serbian, Romanian, Bulgarian, Albanian, etc.): National Guard

 

[E.C.]

If we were to tier them by Department of Defense budget:

GOARCH: Air/Space Force
ROCOR: Army/Navy
Antioch/OCA: Marines
The Balkan Four (Serbian, Romanian, Bulgarian, Albanian, etc.): National Guard

Antioch is at least financially solvent. I think the OCA would be closer to the Coast Guard which just gets the Navy's rejects.

ROCOR however is broke. They don't pay their priests except for some of the larger parishes/cathedrals.

 

[Justin-H.S.]

Antioch is at least financially solvent. I think the OCA would be closer to the Coast Guard which just gets the Navy's rejects.

ROCOR however is broke. They don't pay their priests except for some of the larger parishes/cathedrals.

On an unrelated note, if we were to abbreviate Antioch like the rest of the jurisdictions, it would be AOC.

 

[ArmyMatt]

On an unrelated note, if we were to abbreviate Antioch like the rest of the jurisdictions, it would be AOC.

same with Alexandria and Albania

 

[Andrew.H]

Not merely funny, but funny because there is some truth to it, though ROCOR seems like a rather big and relatively well-known fruit stand.

And the analogy goes far enough in that the Greek Church, like the big national chain, seems (I do say “seems”) to have by far the most money and the most corruption.

And for me it’s personal. I just returned from the US, my grand trip, exclusively to visit my mother, and she drove me into the parking lot of the Greek parish one block from her home that almost led her to Orthodoxy, but the worldliness and $$$ there, including that required of parishioners to participate in events, turned her away from Orthodoxy and Christianity in general, and towards Islam. It was a weekday, the church itself was closed, but a bunch of cars were parked at the parish house next door. I wanted to go in with a whip overturning tables. I really did. Instead, I let my mom drive me back home.

I'm sorry to hear that. I do feel satisfied humble with my ACROD mission church that doesn't seem to have to worry about a lot of this stuff.

Regarding your situation, perhaps this site will be useful.
Answering Islam, A Christian-Muslim Dialog and Apologetic

Sam Shamoun in particular is quite amazing in this field. He wrote this essay that, I think would be hard for any convert to swallow. It's a bit grotesque mind you.
https://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/prepubescent.htm

 

[rusmeister]

The chief problem is that she is not remotely interested now in Christian responses to Islamic claims. You can only share truth with someone open to receiving it. And her Islamic doctor/teacher is no doubt saying the same thing to her about me.

The Islamic insistence that the Apostle Paul was a liar, corrupting and contradicting Christ’s teachings, is really big with her. They insist on calling him Saul.

 

[Justin-H.S.]

same with Alexandria and Albania

I was thinking American jurisdictions, although Albanians are in there with the Balkan four. For whatever reason they fall under the GOA like the Carpatho-Russians.

 

[Andrew.H]

I was thinking American jurisdictions, although Albanians are in there with the Balkan four. For whatever reason they fall under the GOA like the Carpatho-Russians.

I'm not aware of it being under GOA directly, but ACROD is under the EP since it was a uniate church until 100 years ago seeking spiritual protection after leaving the papacy. I can also mention that the intent in calling it the American Carpatho-russians is that they wanted to distinctly declare this is an American church first and foremost. According to what I've read anyway.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I was thinking American jurisdictions, although Albanians are in there with the Balkan four. For whatever reason they fall under the GOA like the Carpatho-Russians.

gotcha

 

[E.C.]

I was thinking American jurisdictions, although Albanians are in there with the Balkan four. For whatever reason they fall under the GOA like the Carpatho-Russians.

If you mean the Albanians under GOARCH, they hardly count as a jurisdiction. They have probably 2 or 3 parishes.

Now, the OCA Albanians have 11 parishes and were at one point lead by Metropolitan Fan Noli who celebrated the first Divine Liturgy in the Albanian language.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Now, the OCA Albanians have 11 parishes and were at one point lead by Metropolitan Fan Noli who celebrated the first Divine Liturgy in the Albanian language.

in Boston, I believe, of all places

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

We underestimate the power of Islam and the grip it has. Muslims don't mess around. We have to acknowledge their devotion. If you're searching for an Abrahamic Faith, Islam shows 5 times a day prayer devotion. In Middle Eastern countries like I just left, you hear that Muezzin call to prayer and it sounds impressive, no doubt. They are simple people. God is one. Period. Muhammad is his last messenger. Period.

Their countries hate the gay lifestyle, they despise abortion, they don't like promiscuity, they reject women dressing like prostitutes, they cling to tradition, and they're consistent.

But look at the West. Christianity is largely an afterthought in Western Civilization 2022. Orthodoxy is a tiny part of the world, and right now two Orthodox nations are blowing each other to bits while the Ecumenical Patriarch creates autocephalous churches in a vacuum and Archbishop Elpidophoros baptizes the children of same-sex perverts and marches with Marxist BLM creeps. The Catholic Church is a gigantic child-molesting ring with a joke liturgy. Disgraceful.

Islam conquered a massive part of the world and they have a history of success and strength, devotion, and consistency. That appeals to people. Apparently it got into your mom's heart somehow. I can't fathom how a white lady in Northern California gets into Islam though?

The appeal is the simplicity, the consistency, the devotion they have, and it's not easy to fight.

The chief problem is that she is not remotely interested now in Christian responses to Islamic claims. You can only share truth with someone open to receiving it. And her Islamic doctor/teacher is no doubt saying the same thing to her about me.

The Islamic insistence that the Apostle Paul was a liar, corrupting and contradicting Christ’s teachings, is really big with her. They insist on calling him Saul.

 

[Andrew.H]

We underestimate the power of Islam and the grip it has. Muslims don't mess around. We have to acknowledge their devotion. If you're searching for an Abrahamic Faith, Islam shows 5 times a day prayer devotion. In Middle Eastern countries like I just left, you hear that Muezzin call to prayer and it sounds impressive, no doubt. They are simple people. God is one. Period. Muhammad is his last messenger. Period.

Their countries hate the gay lifestyle, they despise abortion, they don't like promiscuity, they reject women dressing like prostitutes, they cling to tradition, and they're consistent.

But look at the West. Christianity is largely an afterthought in Western Civilization 2022. Orthodoxy is a tiny part of the world, and right now two Orthodox nations are blowing each other to bits while the Ecumenical Patriarch creates autocephalous churches in a vacuum and Archbishop Elpidophoros baptizes the children of same-sex perverts and marches with Marxist BLM creeps. The Catholic Church is a gigantic child-molesting ring with a joke liturgy. Disgraceful.

Islam conquered a massive part of the world and they have a history of success and strength, devotion, and consistency. That appeals to people. Apparently it got into your mom's heart somehow. I can't fathom how a white lady in Northern California gets into Islam though?

The appeal is the simplicity, the consistency, the devotion they have, and it's not easy to fight.

I would dispute it's "consistency" as only something their scholars claim it to be. It's remarkably not so. Interestingly, a person could argue the Quran teaches trinitarian theology if you take the Arabic literally and disregard tafsir.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Their countries hate the gay lifestyle, they despise abortion, they don't like promiscuity, they reject women dressing like prostitutes, they cling to tradition, and they're consistent.

that actually depends. more tribal areas aren’t always so classically moral.

 

[Justin-H.S.]

that actually depends. more tribal areas aren’t always so classically moral.

While we’re worried about groomers over here, Afghanistan would make NAMBLA blush.

 

[rusmeister]

We underestimate the power of Islam and the grip it has. Muslims don't mess around. We have to acknowledge their devotion. If you're searching for an Abrahamic Faith, Islam shows 5 times a day prayer devotion. In Middle Eastern countries like I just left, you hear that Muezzin call to prayer and it sounds impressive, no doubt. They are simple people. God is one. Period. Muhammad is his last messenger. Period.

Their countries hate the gay lifestyle, they despise abortion, they don't like promiscuity, they reject women dressing like prostitutes, they cling to tradition, and they're consistent.

But look at the West. Christianity is largely an afterthought in Western Civilization 2022. Orthodoxy is a tiny part of the world, and right now two Orthodox nations are blowing each other to bits while the Ecumenical Patriarch creates autocephalous churches in a vacuum and Archbishop Elpidophoros baptizes the children of same-sex perverts and marches with Marxist BLM creeps. The Catholic Church is a gigantic child-molesting ring with a joke liturgy. Disgraceful.

Islam conquered a massive part of the world and they have a history of success and strength, devotion, and consistency. That appeals to people. Apparently it got into your mom's heart somehow. I can't fathom how a white lady in Northern California gets into Islam though?

The appeal is the simplicity, the consistency, the devotion they have, and it's not easy to fight.

I do agree that the perception its followers have of it is that it is consistent.

Islam spreads among Westerners in the West by presenting a truncated version of itself as the whole thing. If you understand that there are essentially three types of believers - nominal, eclectic, and true (or complete), then the situation becomes clear. Most believers, especially in any country where a religion, any religion, is legal tend to be nominal. In Orthodox countries, they wear a cross and go to church for half an hour at Pascha. Thus, most Muslims really ARE peaceful, because they aren’t all that interested in conducting jihad and seriously observing anything that requires real effort, but just want comfortable and prosperous lives here. The true believers accept the whole of their tradition and at least try to live it, to observe fasts, attend services, and in Islam, to do the hajj and conduct jihad of the pen, migration, and/or the sword. The eclectic believers are those who pick and choose the teachings they prefer to believe, and leave out the ones they don’t. Thus, we have plenty of Orthodox who reject one aspect or another of our teachings on marriage and sexuality or whatever, and in Islam there are those who really reject violent jihad, and other ugly aspects of Islamic teaching, and they have convoluted apologetics denying that it IS Islamic teaching, even though 1400 years of history say otherwise. And so it is a combination of true believers practicing taqiyya, the Islamic doctrine approving of lying to the kafir, that us, us, infidels, in order to spread Islam, the peace of Allah, throughout the earth, and eclectic believers who honestly believe Islam is a kind, loving, and tolerant religion, that are spreading Islam in the West among people who would never accept the obviously evil teachings. The true believers use the eclectic believers as suckers, as tools to achieve Islamic majorities, and when they have enough political power, the eclectics are swept aside. Ihlan Omar has a purpose, and when it is done, she will be made to bend the knee before all Islamic men. And politicians like Tulsi Gabbard, so sensible in her grasp of foreign policy, also help by promoting the idea that Islam is peaceful and compatible with Western secular society.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Agreed, but your point about Tulsi Gabbard....either I'm not understanding your point or I have to disagree. Gabbard, a Hindu, has been pretty tough on Islam reminding people that it was the religion that fueled 911 and other terrorist acts. I recall her Tweets on that. I haven't heard her say peaceful things about it, but I'm not an enthusiastic reader of her comments admittedly.

I do agree that the perception its followers have of it is that it is consistent.

Islam spreads among Westerners in the West by presenting a truncated version of itself as the whole thing. If you understand that there are essentially three types of believers - nominal, eclectic, and true (or complete), then the situation becomes clear. Most believers, especially in any country where a religion, any religion, is legal tend to be nominal. In Orthodox countries, they wear a cross and go to church for half an hour at Pascha. Thus, most Muslims really ARE peaceful, because they aren’t all that interested in conducting jihad and seriously observing anything that requires real effort, but just want comfortable and prosperous lives here. The true believers accept the whole of their tradition and at least try to live it, to observe fasts, attend services, and in Islam, to do the hajj and conduct jihad of the pen, migration, and/or the sword. The eclectic believers are those who pick and choose the teachings they prefer to believe, and leave out the ones they don’t. Thus, we have plenty of Orthodox who reject one aspect or another of our teachings on marriage and sexuality or whatever, and in Islam there are those who really reject violent jihad, and other ugly aspects of Islamic teaching, and they have convoluted apologetics denying that it IS Islamic teaching, even though 1400 years of history say otherwise. And so it is a combination of true believers practicing taqiyya, the Islamic doctrine approving of lying to the kafir, that us, us, infidels, in order to spread Islam, the peace of Allah, throughout the earth, and eclectic believers who honestly believe Islam is a kind, loving, and tolerant religion, that are spreading Islam in the West among people who would never accept the obviously evil teachings. The true believers use the eclectic believers as suckers, as tools to achieve Islamic majorities, and when they have enough political power, the eclectics are swept aside. Ihlan Omar has a purpose, and when it is done, she will be made to bend the knee before all Islamic men. And politicians like Tulsi Gabbard, so sensible in her grasp of foreign policy, also help by promoting the idea that Islam is peaceful and compatible with Western secular society.