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Depart from Me, I never knew you (says Jesus...)

Discussion in 'Charismatic Catholic Renewal' started by truthHurts77, Jan 18, 2012.

  1. truthHurts77

    truthHurts77 Newbie

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    I find it interesting that many people speak of having a personal relationship w/ Jesus (those words aren't in the Bible) and yet it seems what they mean is the relationship of them knowing Him

    yet Jesus even rejects those who do "mighty deeds in" His name (St Mt 7)

    scary

    and in at least 2 places in the NT He says "Depart from Me, i never knew you"

    He doesn't say Depart from Me, you never knew ME

    i think a lot of people know Jesus... They know who He is... they know he's the truth. They know what He requires of them

    but if they are known BY Him... well, that's a little different thing

    a person who goes to work every day as an abortionist can say he knows Jesus... I am thinking George Tiller... He wnt to church (Lutheran). But day after day he continued to violate one of God's most fundamental laws...

    so Tiller "knew" Jesus

    but Jesus apparently didn't know him... because God will not dwell with those who commit mortal sin

    anyway, i am NOT judging anyone... (although we ARE called to judge actions... "You will know them by their fruits")

    I just think this is all kinda interesting...
     
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  2. truthHurts77

    truthHurts77 Newbie

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    i think everyone is born with the capacity to know that Jesus, once they hear His Words, is truth incarnate... is who He says He is..

    again, it is those who know Him and reject Him (which is most people?? - St Mt 7)

    who are rejected in this psg

    I think what Jesus means by Him not knowing us is that we refuse to give Him ALL of us.. We keep this sin or that "from Him"

    true, nothing is hidden from Jesus... but in a way we can hide this kind of hting from Him... meaning not give it to Him... Whatever we do not give to Him... hmmmmm.... not good....
     
  3. truthHurts77

    truthHurts77 Newbie

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    its interesting that protestants are usually the ones to speak of having a relationship with Jesus.. words not found in the Bible

    and they criticize CATHOLICS for beliving in things that are not explicitly in the Bible...

    hmmmm....

    altar calls aren't in the Bible

    OSAS is not in the Bible...

    anyway, that's not to say we should not have this relationship

    just saying that protestants believe things not found explicitly in the Bible as wel....
     
  4. muzza21

    muzza21 Newbie

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    Please excuse me for gently cutting into your conversation, but I found my way here by way of the heading of your forum. Charismatic catholic? Does that mean you are unbinding yourselves from the old traditions?

    My name is Muzza, I am not a protestant, although I certainly did begin as one from a young age. However, recently I have stepped back due to the self righteousness, hypocracy and deceptions I find rampaging within.

    I like the way you speak with each other and if you would be so kind, please could you teach me about yourselves and your beliefs. From just the few words I have seen, you appear to be serious seekers for His truth.
     
  5. truthHurts77

    truthHurts77 Newbie

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    well, this is new one... a poster interested in the truth? :D

    sorry, couldn't help that... been answer too many posts lately that i should probably disregard...

    anyway, i hate to tell u this but you will probably find a lot of unkosher stuff in the Catholic people as well... I certainly have... even within my self, if you can believe that... :D

    anyway, if you could supply more details about... what you are looking for exactly and all... I am not sure what you most wanted input on?

    I dont like the way the RCC has given up certain old traditions, but the RCC hasn't given up anything seroius, i suppose... (?)

    I hate the hand-holding during the Our Father at Mass... and the greeting in the middle of the Mass (I REALLY hate that) but... anyway, all of Heaven participates @ the Mass just the same, so... can't complain... (but i do anyway because my middle name is Complain :D)

    anyway... if i could learn more about your spiritual journey??? that would be great...

    thanks
     
  6. truthHurts77

    truthHurts77 Newbie

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    i should have known anyone truly interested in truth

    would disappear from these forums :D
     
  7. muzza21

    muzza21 Newbie

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    Brother. Please forgive my slackness in replying, I have been away mixing it up with those pesky Protestants. I'm still here, just been as busy as a bee with a bum full of honey.

    I must quickly add that I'm not Catholic either. I'm actually a virgin so to speak, non denominational and beholding to no man or his doctrines.

    Somehow, on my way to battle, I somehow found my way to you. Why? I don't know. Actually, Ive seen enough of Catholic doctrine to steer well clear, and please please believe me, I don't mean to insult you.

    Maybe it's just you I'm supposed to meet? Even to say hello, because I can tell, you're a really good fella.

    My name is Muzza, how do you do?
     
  8. truthHurts77

    truthHurts77 Newbie

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    that's odd... it is Catholic doctrine that draws me... attracts me..

    the RCC's position on the inviolablility of human life.. that ALL human life is sacred... that's one of the main ones

    then there is the the RCC teaching on the sanctity of marriage... and how you are only married to ONE person for life

    i could go on and on

    But there are thigns about the Church that botheer me. and frnkly i feel i am in a better position to say what is truly wrong in the Church than those outside it...

    but what is wrong can never over-ride what is RIGHT

    and i mean NEVER

    if it were otherwise, i would have been gone a LONG time ago... I have had transitory thoghts of leaving... and they are VERY transitory

    never last more than a second

    you dont leave the Church Christ hismelf established... well, you can... but then you can also choose to jump off a 5 story building... and you can choose to belive you wont be hurt if you do so... but... uh... sometimes it doesn't pay 2 beleive certain things... :)

    anyway, if you really love Jesus you will not leave his Church

    that is where i found Jesus

    that is where i found absolute, complete truth

    all of heaven participates in the Mass

    and Jesus is tangibly with us in the consecrated Hosts that are kept in the tabernacles of his Churches... so we can be in his holy Presence w henever we need Him...

    only thing is..

    Chruches aren't open 24/7
    and

    we always need Him...
     
  9. muzza21

    muzza21 Newbie

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    I sincerely hope the truth finds you by the grace of God.

    If I am speaking with you then perhaps it is His will, but I cannot lead you, or Heaven forbid, judge you. If in fact you are curious genuinely then I will present certain facts to you privately. If not, go in peace good man.

    Muzza
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2012
  10. truthHurts77

    truthHurts77 Newbie

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    this sounds so presumptuous... What? do only you have a grip on truth?

    i never knew the truth about God and Jesus and a whole lot of related things until i taught msyelf the Catholic faith, began attending daily Mass... where all of Heaven particiipates :liturgy::)

    i am not a man

    although i feel i tend to think more like a man than a woman on a lot of different.. levels

    i sometimes hate being female because we tend to think w/ our emotions

    that is not all bad and sometimes men seem to be, on the other hand, totally out of touch w/ their feelings.. that's not good either

    but anyhow...

    i love being Cahtolic

    at least most of the time

    its the Catholic people i dont like... :)
     
  11. george baily

    george baily Member

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    being that the time when this word is spoken, AT JUDGEMENT! it can only be a figure of speech, because Jesus being God knows who everyone is, to say that God didn't know who a person was or what he or she has done in their life is clearly a false notion. ........a more accepted idea would be the same as we see in Luke 13:27 as Jesus uses this same idea of not knowing these souls, yet he seems to know they are workers of iniquity.....you can't say I don't know someone, yet in the same breath know they were workers of iniquity......its definately a figure of speech, I agree with your post!
     
  12. muzza21

    muzza21 Newbie

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    Oh dear, so sorry for mixing you up, really have to pay more attention to that. Mind if we start again? Also, don't mean to sound presumptuous, like I'm the only one with the truth. I'm not.

    I have a very good friend of mine. SHE is also a Catholic and loves being a Catholic, been one for 30 years, but for sake of peace we have to literally avoid these conversations because she just believes what she believes is truth and nothing I can show her will sway her away from Catholic doctrine.

    Are you the same?

    Here is an example. Please point out to me in the bible where it says by attending daily mass, it happens that all heaven participates?
     
  13. Simon_Templar

    Simon_Templar Not all who wander are lost

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    truthhurts,

    When people talk about having personal relationship, and knowing Jesus, in most cases, they are not talking about merely knowing of Jesus, or knowing about Jesus.. they are talking about knowing him on a "personal" level.. thus the term "personal relationship".

    I can say that I know the governor of my state because I know who he is, I've read about him, watched him speak etc. But I don't know him in the same way I know my mother, or my brother.

    A lot of people who call themselves Christians know Jesus like I know the governor of my state. They don't know him like I know my brother or my friend etc. For a lot of people their faith never goes beyond a vague acceptance that God exists and that Jesus is God etc.

    This is what those who talk about "personal relationships" and "knowing Jesus" are trying to work against.

    Now, having said that, there is a negative side to this crowd as well (having grown up in it). First, the phrase "personal relationship" has become such a clieche that it has lost the real impact it should have. Its been so vastly over used and so often used without really understanding all that it should mean.

    Secondly, there is a genuine problem with many of those who focus on the personal aspect in that their faith becomes defined by their own self. It becomes personal not in the sense of intimate, but rather in the sense of defined by my own preferences and tastes.

    So, I fully agree that every Christian should have a personal relationship with Jesus. In fact, if you don't, I would have to say you probably are in need of having a real heart conversion.
    However, at the same time, personal can not mean selfish, and it can not mean defined by me, or my tastes etc.

    The whole point of Christianity, indeed of existence is for us to know God on an intimate level in relationship.
     
  14. Simon_Templar

    Simon_Templar Not all who wander are lost

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    Hi Muzza,

    I would like to begin by addressing your use of the phrase "unbinding yourselves from the old traditions".

    Tradition is a buzz word that many Christians use as a kind of derogatory term about more formal types of worship, doctrinal views etc. Generally it is a word that groups use to attack the beliefs of other groups that they disagree with.

    First all groups have tradition. Any group who thinks they don't is just blind to their own biases.

    second, tradition is not a bad thing. In fact a person who has no tradition is by definition, not a Christian. I say this because all of Christianity is a tradition which has been handed down generation to generation for 2000 years. The idea that Jesus was the messiah, that he is the Son of God.. those are traditions.

    What the word tradition simply means is a belief or practice that is handed down from one generation to the next. So unless you invented your own religion completely out of yourself, then your faith and worship are all based on tradition.

    thirdly, Christianity is a revealed, handed down faith. The truths that form the center of Christianity were revealed 2000 years ago and have been handed down ever since. As a result any TRUE tradition is going to be old. Any NEW tradition is almost by definition, a human invention and a deception.

    And lastly, that is the real question. Not do you have tradition, or are you bound by tradition.. the real question is are your traditions the ones that God revealed and handed down, or are they invented by men.


    Now, I was raised protestant. I was non-denominational charismatic for the first 30 years of my life. I actually had my conversion experience in a messianic Jewish synagogue.

    I was taught all my life that the "traditional" Church (any of the liturgical churches, from lutheran to anglican to catholic etc) was dead, and bound by man made traditions. All of their worship and teaching was about controlling people and preventing the Spirit from moving etc.

    I believed that until I started to actually study the real history of the Christian faith, until I actually began to read the writings of the original Christians and really to study the bible free from the pre-conceived (and mis-conceived) ideas that I had been raised with.

    What I found, much to my shock, was that the traditional Church was far more biblical and far more true to the original than any of the non-denominational churches I had known.

    I also found much to my surprised that the Catholic Church in particular was much much closer to Old Testament Judaism than any of the protestantized messianic groups I saw.

    I am not trying to be adverserial, but I would challenge you as one who has made that journey to really put aside the preconceived ideas and to study the bible and the original writings of the first Christians and see where it brings you.
     
  15. muzza21

    muzza21 Newbie

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    Very interesting, Mr. Templar. Changing traditions within the Catholic Church needs to happen. People will just not tolerate priests doing dispicable acts to children anymore. Such abomnations on such grand scales across continents and countries, cannot be swept under the rug. This is just one such tradition which has no biblical base and is a clear doctrine of man. God created man and woman to be joined together in marriage. Of course this will happen when a man is denied his basic human need for love and sex. Titus 1:6 God instructs His priests to behave. Granted, this is the most extreme example, but how do feel about what was done to the ten commandments of God?
     
  16. muzza21

    muzza21 Newbie

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    It's been on my mind throughout the day, and I'd like to explain something to you. I'm not here to judge or condemn Catholics. I really do feel for you, because from my perspective, we are on the same team. There are those of you who love God and Jesus every bit as much as I do. Are you aware, that most of the Christian communities, not only Protestants, believe the beast of revelations will come out of the Catholic church? I am not one of those people. Really, my original intent was tobdrop by and say hello. Can we just enjoy each other a bit without conflict? I think you are a respectful and wonderful people.
     
  17. SharonL

    SharonL Senior Veteran

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    Well as someone who was raised Protestant, married Catholic, chose Lutheran to meet in the middle. I've been a Christian all my life, so the label on the church is not that important to me. I felt like I was living the Christian life and doing all that I needed to do to get to Heaven. I met a new friend that had something that I did not have - the Joy of the Lord - her walk was different than mine and I wanted it.

    When you speak of a personal relationship, this is what you are talking about - the Joy of the Lord. When the Holy Spirit guides you and you walk with Jesus as close as your shadow, life becomes different. Everything you do and say will be for one reason only and that is to do God's Will.

    All the labels of the churches became unimportant to me. I could worship in any church because my hand is in the hand of Jesus and led by the Holy Spirit and He will not lead you in the wrong direction.
     
  18. muzza21

    muzza21 Newbie

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    You are correct of course, He would never Lead you in the wrong direction, but unfortunately associated doctrines, and I'm not talking Catholic here, will lead you away from Him and you'll not realiize it. Do you mind if I addresss a false doctrine many subscribe to, most denominational, and don't even know it? You pointed out a classic fault. When you are dead you go to heaven? The word of God is very clear on this in John 3:13 No one has ascended to Heaven except He who came down from Heaven, that is the Son of Man (Jesus). David was a Man after God's own heart. If anyone ascended to Heaven he would have right? Wrong!!!! Acts 2:34 for David ascended not into heaven. Go even further and read John 1;18 No man has seen God at any time. You see, doctrine is not truth, the word of God is truth, His final authority. Please, I invite you to challenge my truth. Show me anywhere in Gods word that suggests when you die, you go to heaven.
     
  19. truthHurts77

    truthHurts77 Newbie

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    not sure i u/stand this?

    Jesus himself said, "I never knew you"

    of course God is omnipotent and knows all.. and Jesus is God

    so he must mean soemthing a little different...

    i think he means INtimacy

    if you accept only 1/3 of what Jesus says and throw away the rest...

    you are not giving that 2/3 to Him.... intimacy
     
  20. truthHurts77

    truthHurts77 Newbie

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    Jesus said that no one had ascended BEFORE (meaning He said this b4) he was taken into Heaven

    now that he is ascended, & has sent the Advocate (the Holy Spirit... His Church that contains the HS)people do get itno Heaven... Of cours most have to go through Purgatory first because Heaven is aboslutely PURE and most of us humans... uh... far from it...
     
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