deny Christ to save other lives?

[Norbert L]

Everyone is familiar with the usual stories of Christian martydom. But what about situations like in the story Silence, where other people are threatened with death to get a Christian to renounce their faith? In the story, Rodrigues symbolically denounces his faith by stomping on an icon of Christ, to save the lives of several Japanese Christians who have already denied Christ.

It is an interesting ethical situation.

For Rodrigues to believe that a public statement of abandoning Jesus on his part can save anyone else who already committed the same act... strikes me at best as believing the lie that he personally can control the salvation of other people or at worst is being doctrinally insane.

 

[Lepanto]

Everyone is familiar with the usual stories of Christian martydom. But what about situations like in the story Silence, where other people are threatened with death to get a Christian to renounce their faith? In the story, Rodrigues symbolically denounces his faith by stomping on an icon of Christ, to save the lives of several Japanese Christians who have already denied Christ.

It is an interesting ethical situation.

"Such a shallow story so contrary to all Church teaching would usually pose no threat to Catholics who are firm in their Faith. However, Hollywood has tragically assumed the role of a teaching authority to countless American Catholics. Thus, the principal lesson taught by the film—that outwardly denying the Faith can sometimes be justified and even desired by God—does pose a danger to the many uncatechized that might mistake Hollywood script for Scriptures. Any silence about 'Silence' might be misconstrued as consent."

Why Catholics Cannot be Silent about Scorsese’s ‘Silence’ - American TFP

 

[FireDragon76]

For Rodrigues to believe that a public statement of abandoning Jesus on his part can save anyone else who already committed the same act...

I think I'm doing a bad job explaining the story, so I give up. I don't think Rodrigues is trying to "save" people in the sense that most western Christians understand. His reaction is visceral and emotional, and that's why I think it is compelling.

Endo's view of Jesus or God is far more humane than the stern authoritarian personality of western Christianity.

 

[FireDragon76]

Sad that Martin Luther, took out several books, from the Bible and below is one of them.

Digressing from this topic... your statement is just not true, it's a myth that is frequented repeated. Luther's Bible had 2 Macabees, he translated it himself into German.

Lutherans do not object to the so-called apocryphal or deuterocanonical books being in the Bible, but they do not consider them to have the same doctrinal importance as Roman Catholics, and some of the books contain questionable doctrines, such as justification through works. Nevertheless, they are important to contextualize the New Testament.

 

[frettr00]

.

 

[rockytopva]

Moses sought to condemn himself to save Israel, in which God's reply was...

31 And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. - Exodus 32

We may sacrifice our life to save others, but never our immortal soul.

 

[rockytopva]

Scripture is very clear on this matter...

But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. - Matthew 10:33

If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: - 2 Timothy 2:12

 

[frettr00]

Scripture is very clear on this matter...

But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. - Matthew 10:33

If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: - 2 Timothy 2:12

Would God forgive a denial if you really didn't mean it, but were just doing it to save the lives of others?

 

[aiki]

Isn't this tempting God? It's basically having their lives depend on a miracle. Few responsible Christias would tell a sick patient to forgo medical treatment in favor of prayer, even the ones that do believe in miracles.

Do you think the situation Rodrigues was in parallels that of a Christian person with a sick relative or friend? I don't.

Selah.

 

[Te're'sa]

The question is, what does it mean to deny Christ? Stepping on a statue to some....Saying words to others......Living "wrong" to another.

I believe you deny christ by your very thoughts and beliefs in your heart. I believe that many "Saved" people are actively denying Christ, but just doesnt know it. These are they who, at the end, will say Lord, Lord, havent I stood for you even at the expense of other lives? (not a quote, of course) And Jesus will say depart from me ye workers of hidden sin.

You have two options, one leads to the death of many and the other to your own righteousness and maybe pride and praise of others?

If I have to travel the depts of Hell to save the lives of a few I would and i WILL.

To be like Jesus......

Based on all of your other posts, and your replies to people who disagreed with you, there seems to be something about Jesus's descent to Hell that you're missing.

You claim in this post that you would even travel to Hell to save believers' lives. ... Have you ever watched the series Prison Break? If not, it's about a man who commits armed robbery to get himself thrown in prison, to break out his innocent brother. The only way we mortal humans can travel to Hell is in a similar way - we have to commit a sin. But, unlike in Prison Break, we would be unable to break ourselves out. :/

Jesus, on the other hand, NEVER committed a sin (and no, He isn't bound by original sin. If you believe we humans aren't, either, then you'd at least have to admit that Jesus, being originally and eternally one with God, is higher than we are in the Heavenly hierarchy), and Jesus did not go to Hell as a prisoner. He had to bodily die and suffer beforehand, but He visited Hell like the governor - the warden's boss - visiting a prison, opening the cells, and releasing and pardoning the innocent, as He's always had the jurisdiction to do.

To strive to be like Jesus is always the goal, but I'd consider it a mistake to believe myself equal with Christ.

 

[FireDragon76]

Do you think the situation Rodrigues was in parallels that of a Christian person with a sick relative or friend? I don't.

Selah.

I do.

Look, I don't think the First Great Commandment tramples the Second. Loving out neighbor is "like unto" the First. In Greek, the word "like", homoios, in Matthew 22:39 has a stronger meaning than in English, it almost means "the same". In this world, the way we most show our love for God is through loving our neighbor, including loving their life. Indeed, you cannot love God without loving your neighbor, as numerous Scriptures attest to.

Jesus was very critical of those who used supposed religious obligations to God to forgo their duties to their neighbors and family. He criticized the practice of declaring some things a sacrifice to God, just so that a lawyer could get out of their obligations to their kin.

That is why, while I find Rodrigues plight tragic, I cannot condemn his actions:

"Philip L. Quinn, in “Tragic Dilemmas, Suffering Love, and Christian Life,” characterises Fr. Rodrigues’s struggle as being “torn between the demand for loyalty to his priestly vows and to his church and the claim the suffering of the Japanese Christians makes on his capacity for love of neighbour.” He does not have the strength to bear the burden of choosing one over the other, but he believes God has the strength to endure his choice.

Weak Love and Moral Culpability in Shusaku Endo's Silence - Catholic Stand

This is why I find this particular theme so Lutheran. Fr. Rodrigues is the ultimate "bold sinner" that must put his trust wholely in God's mercy, because his own human capacities have failed him. This is why the interior locution of Jesus tells him that once he steps on the icon, Jesus will take hold of him. In the end, the story is about God's mercy and compassion to those who have done nothing to deserve it, this is summed up in the film version when Kijichiro, the hapless Judas of the story who is now an old man, turns to Fr. Rodrigues and asks for absolution one last time. This mercy and compassion tramples the glory of religious piety and works, it is the voice of God that Rodrigues has sought his whole life.

Scripture is very clear on this matter...

But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. - Matthew 10:33

If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: - 2 Timothy 2:12

No attempt is made here to get behind the Scriptures to understand the values that inspired those scriptures. Human life is presented as sacred in the Scriptures, in both Judaism and Christianity. It should not be treated as a lamentable waystation onto eternity, of only instrument value. Human beings are ends in themselves, even to God. The parable of the Prodigal Son implies this.

 

[RaymondG]

Scripture is very clear on this matter...

But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. - Matthew 10:33

If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: - 2 Timothy 2:12

How do you think Peter made out? He denied Christ 3 times just to possibly save his own life. Or do you have exceptions for him?

 

[LinkH]

I John says if we confess our sins, he is faihtful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[RaymondG]

Based on all of your other posts, and your replies to people who disagreed with you, there seems to be something about Jesus's descent to Hell that you're missing.

You claim in this post that you would even travel to Hell to save believers' lives. ... Have you ever watched the series Prison Break? If not, it's about a man who commits armed robbery to get himself thrown in prison, to break out his innocent brother. The only way we mortal humans can travel to Hell is in a similar way - we have to commit a sin. But, unlike in Prison Break, we would be unable to break ourselves out. :/

Jesus, on the other hand, NEVER committed a sin (and no, He isn't bound by original sin. If you believe we humans aren't, either, then you'd at least have to admit that Jesus, being originally and eternally one with God, is higher than we are in the Heavenly hierarchy), and Jesus did not go to Hell as a prisoner. He had to bodily die and suffer beforehand, but He visited Hell like the governor - the warden's boss - visiting a prison, opening the cells, and releasing and pardoning the innocent, as He's always had the jurisdiction to do.

To strive to be like Jesus is always the goal, but I'd consider it a mistake to believe myself equal with Christ.

You misquoted/understood me.. I didnt say I would travel to hell for believers lives....I would do it for anyone. I dont esteem the lives of myself or other Christians over that of the "sinner." And only God knows who are His...I can only judge the outward appearance....I cant say for sure anyone belongs to God.

And watch out about "Prison Break," some of your fellow believers will condemn you to hell for watching "carnal shows of this world"

I respect everyones opinion on this subject and wouldnt condemn anyone for any view they have.

As for me, I cant see myself passing on the opportunity to save 1, let alone 10, 100, 1000 souls just to save my own.

Me: "God I didnt deny you, even as the expense of 1000 souls!"
God: "You denied me 1000 times...."

What you do the least, you do it as unto me! How can i not try to save Jesus?

How can I destroy 1000 temples of God and be happy that my own was saved?

How can I skip-to-my-lou in heaven, knowing that I got there by possibly sending 1000 others to hell.

Would i want to live with a bunch of people who happily sent 1000 people to hell, so to save their own souls, and then brag about their own righteousness?

You guys can have fun in your big mansions and golden streets.
Let me Moonwalk with MJ and play guitar with Prince. That would be easier for me than living in a mansion, knowing I only got their because I sent 1000 others to hell.

But that's just me. If Im wrong....Pray for me.....Pray that the God of Love convicts my heart and start making me value my own soul over everyone else's.

 

[Dosblade]

Words.. word have life and death. Words are what made all we see. God spoke. When the word of God says we will answer for ever idle word, I say.. careful what you speak.

Not sure I follow everything here but.. to deny Christ to save live/lives? Sad but this happens even today. I dont think many know the true cost of saying Yeshua/Jesus is lord..of your life. To deny Christ for any reason? There is none.. no matter what. There is no reason to sin. And to LIE is a sin. To God .. its NEVER ok to sin.

I truly understand the story. Yet its not TRUE compassion or love. It got twisted, seen though mans eyes. Peter denied Christ 3 times. Jesus never said a word to him about it.. just asked 3 times do you love me. Easy looking back we have 20/20.. to be there in that.. our GOD is our Father.. you are still loved..

 

[aiki]

I do.

Well, then, maybe you can explain why not wanting to deny Christ for any reason in the situation in which Rodrigues did means I should or would neglect to take a sick or injured friend or relative to the hospital, or generally act in a unloving way toward my neighbor.

I just don't see how Rodrigues's circumstance is sufficiently parallel to caring for a sick or injured loved one to warrant the comparison you made. If I had traveled to a country severely hostile to my faith to proselytize and found myself imprisoned as a result and under the duress placed upon Rodrigues by his captors, I would not say to myself, "Hey, this is just like taking my brother to the hospital when he broke his arm!"

Selah.

 

[Norbert L]

Would God forgive a denial if you really didn't mean it, but were just doing it to save the lives of others?

A person would have to ask their self about thinking that, "I really didn't mean it", is actually a nice innocent way of saying "I am bearing a false witness against my neighbor and God". Exodus 20:16.

 

[Martyr's Crown]

Matthew 10, 33: "But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

It will give bad consequences for anyone who denies Jesus Christ. Besides no one can really save other people but God alone through Jesus Christ. The best one can do is tell people to seek God before it is too late, and tell them about salvation. Then it will be up to them what they choose to do next.

Men and women who fear and love God wouldn't have wanted to deny their Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. They also know that the suffering they may have to endure on earth is shorter compared to the eternal life in heaven which they are promised when receiving salvation in their lives.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Everyone is familiar with the usual stories of Christian martydom. But what about situations like in the story Silence, where other people are threatened with death to get a Christian to renounce their faith? In the story, Rodrigues symbolically denounces his faith by stomping on an icon of Christ, to save the lives of several Japanese Christians who have already denied Christ.

It is an interesting ethical situation.

I fear Christians like Rodrigues, as you describe him, are not doing other Christians any favors. We should rejoice even in the face of severe persecution says Jesus in Matthew 5:11-12. The Rodrigues of the world have forgotten that in the face of certain death we embrace it; death means we will be with Jesus.
This may sound hard and cold, but I mean it kindly and matter of factly.

 

[RaymondG]

I fear Christians like Rodrigues, as you describe him, are not doing other Christians any favors. We should rejoice even in the face of severe persecution says Jesus in Matthew 5:11-12. The Rodrigues of the world have forgotten that in the face of certain death we embrace it; death means we will be with Jesus.
This may sound hard and cold, but I mean it kindly and matter of factly.

The issues isn't saving his own life...it is the lives of others. He did what he was told to save the life of other people. I believe we all would agree if we were talking about ones own life.

The fact that heaven will be filled with people willing to kill others to save there own souls, or for "the faith" scares me. Sounds like what is going on in some places now.