deny Christ to save other lives?

FireDragon76

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Everyone is familiar with the usual stories of Christian martydom. But what about situations like in the story Silence, where other people are threatened with death to get a Christian to renounce their faith? In the story, Rodrigues symbolically denounces his faith by stomping on an icon of Christ, to save the lives of several Japanese Christians who have already denied Christ.

It is an interesting ethical situation.
 

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Everyone is familiar with the usual stories of Christian martydom. But what about situations like in the story Silence, where other people are threatened with death to get a Christian to renounce their faith? In the story, Rodrigues symbolically denounces his faith by stomping on an icon of Christ, to save the lives of several Japanese Christians who have already denied Christ.

It is an interesting ethical situation.

I don't find it ethically difficult at all.
God is the creator and master of life, he and only he decides our destiny.

No-one leaves this world without God allowing it to happen.
Besides martyrdom has often times led to conversion of the witness of said injustice.
 
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SPF

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I think following an ethical standard of the ends justifying the means is a dangerous one. I think you're better off treating each means an end in itself.

I think we would all agree that to deny Christ and our relationship with Him is wrong. So I would say we can stop right there and the answer to whether or not we should deny Christ for whatever reason X, is wrong.
 
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SkyWriting

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Everyone is familiar with the usual stories of Christian martydom. But what about situations like in the story Silence, where other people are threatened with death to get a Christian to renounce their faith? In the story, Rodrigues symbolically denounces his faith by stomping on an icon of Christ, to save the lives of several Japanese Christians who have already denied Christ.It is an interesting ethical situation.

God already knew the outcome of the events. Ethics is limited to small thinking that considered the advantages of power over others.
 
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FireDragon76

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God already knew the outcome of the events. Ethics is limited to small minds who think in terms of power over others.

That would mean that God willed something horrible. Even if it's only a permissive will for God, being personally OK with that yourself would be inhuman (let's assume arguendo that if the apostates die, their souls are lost... something I'm sure Rodrigues was aware of, being raised as a Jesuit).
 
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FireDragon76

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I think we would all agree that to deny Christ and our relationship with Him is wrong. So I would say we can stop right there and the answer to whether or not we should deny Christ for whatever reason X, is wrong.

"It's better to do evil than to be evil" - Dietrich Bonhoeffer
 
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Dave-W

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The Jews of the late 2nd temple period (NT times) had a process for obeying the Law when 2 ordinances came into conflict with each other. It was that a positive command "thou shalt" always trumped a negative command "thou shalt not" with only a couple of exceptions: the prohibitions on adultery and idolatry. The Lord Himself appealed to this principle in defending His own and the disciples' actions when accused of breaking Sabbath.
 
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SeventyOne

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Everyone is familiar with the usual stories of Christian martydom. But what about situations like in the story Silence, where other people are threatened with death to get a Christian to renounce their faith? In the story, Rodrigues symbolically denounces his faith by stomping on an icon of Christ, to save the lives of several Japanese Christians who have already denied Christ.

It is an interesting ethical situation.

It would only be an ethical situation if one views the value of temporal life the same as the value of eternal life.

In this case, if one were to believe one could be un-born again (I don't), then the choice is forfeit eternal life in exchange for maybe some more years in this temporary life before their inevitable death occurs somewhere else and they still go to hell. Nothing is ultimately gained for anyone, but one still suffers great loss.
 
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FireDragon76

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In this case, if one were to believe one could be un-born again (I don't), then the choice is forfeit eternal life in exchange for maybe some more years in this temporary life before their inevitable death occurs somewhere else and they still go to hell. Nothing is ultimately gained for anyone, but one still suffers great loss.

Right... remind me never to have you in my foxhole.
 
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FireDragon76

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The Jews of the late 2nd temple period (NT times) had a process for obeying the Law when 2 ordinances came into conflict with each other. It was that a positive command "thou shalt" always trumped a negative command "thou shalt not" with only a couple of exceptions: the prohibitions on adultery and idolatry. The Lord Himself appealed to this principle in defending His own and the disciples' actions when accused of breaking Sabbath.

OK, now we are getting somewhere. Though I still don't think it makes the ethics of this situation easy. And I wouldn't say Jewish ethics are normative for Christians, either.
 
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FireDragon76

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They should be.

They aren't normative because the Gospel presents justification, remission of sins before God due to the merits of Christ, to those who have faith. So Lutheran ethics is more than just seeking to avoid personal sins. I find this to be a pragmatic guide to living a Christian life. Whereas Judaism has hundreds of commandments which would be difficult, if not impossible to fulfill them all.
 
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RaymondG

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Everyone is familiar with the usual stories of Christian martydom. But what about situations like in the story Silence, where other people are threatened with death to get a Christian to renounce their faith? In the story, Rodrigues symbolically denounces his faith by stomping on an icon of Christ, to save the lives of several Japanese Christians who have already denied Christ.

It is an interesting ethical situation.

Man looks at the outward appearance, God looks at the heart. He is able to view the contents of the heart. What one says with their mouth means nothing. Therefore the only thing to do is the say whatever you have to to save the life.

If one was to speak out loud their profession to Christ at the expense of a human life just so that it is known by Man that they said this rather than that....I wouldnt Think They were fit for the kingdom of God. Would they then Bask in the praise of Man who would look up to him and say "This is a true Man of God...nothing can make Him say this or that"???? Nay! I'd rather be esteemed by God than By Man, who can put me down just as quick as they raise me up.
 
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FireDragon76

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Rodrigues decision is not without cost. The icon is not just a piece of wood for him. It really amounts to stepping on Christ: it's repugnant. It would be repugnant to me too, honestly, though I can imagine for a 17th century Jesuit it would be even moreso. He lives out the rest of his life a broken man, but I think he was going to be broken either way.

Sometimes doing the right thing involves personal sacrifice. Maybe the greater sacrifice is our own sense of goodness and righteousness.
 
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RaymondG

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Rodrigues decision is not without cost. The icon is not just a piece of wood for him. It really amounts to stepping on Christ: it's repugnant. It would be repugnant to me too, honestly, though I can imagine for a 17th century Jesuit it would be even moreso. He lives out the rest of his life a broken man, but I think he was going to be broken either way.

Sometimes doing the right thing involves personal sacrifice. Maybe the greater sacrifice is our own sense of goodness and righteousness.

I believe Christ will reveal Himself to him one day...then he will realize that Christ was never in an object to be held....."In that day ye will know that I am in my Father my Father in me and I IN you."
 
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RaymondG

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not difficult in the slightest,

if the other believers were truly converted believers they would not want this person to deny Christ even at the cost of their own lives. they would all willingly go down with the ship.

So the Christ in you would tell you to let people die so that you can say a few words that has no baring on what is truly in your heart?
 
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FireDragon76

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So the Christ in you would tell you to let people die so that you can save a few words that has no baring on what is truly in your heart?

Oh, I think you miss my point also. Letting your lips say something that your heart doesn't believe, makes you a hypocrite. Now, hypocrisy might be forgivable but that doesn't make it a good thing.
 
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