Denominations or Demon Nations ?

bbbbbbb

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Enough that they were a distinct denomination. My idea of "bickering" is forming a separate church or denomination rather than sitting down at the table and ironing out basic doctrine -- not giving up until a decision is reached, the way it was always done at the ecumenical councils in the past, Nicea, Chalcedon, etc.

Not exactly. The Oriental Orthodox folks got bounced out fairly early in the process, not to mention others. Then, of course, there was the Great Schism where a certain gentleman in Rome failed to see eye-to-eye with his brethren to the east.
 
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bekkilyn

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Enough that they were a distinct denomination. My idea of "bickering" is forming a separate church or denomination rather than sitting down at the table and ironing out basic doctrine -- not giving up until a decision is reached, the way it was always done at the ecumenical councils in the past, Nicea, Chalcedon, etc.

That wasn't my definition of bickering as my thoughts were more in line with the different denominations being unable to get along at all with each other, and I just wasn't seeing that going on for the most part.

I'm personally glad for the "bickering" using your definition because all the different denominations help to attract more people to the gospel and put limits on political power and corruption. Also, many people wouldn't bother with church if they were stuck with only one unbearable (to them) option with nowhere else to go.
 
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Open Heart

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I'm personally glad for the "bickering" using your definition because all the different denominations help to attract more people to the gospel and put limits on political power and corruption. Also, many people wouldn't bother with church if they were stuck with only one unbearable (to them) option with nowhere else to go.
I'm not talking about differences in music or worship style. I'm talking about doctrinal differences. For example there are three CONTRARY doctrines: a)Chrisitans should be baptized b)Christians should not be baptized c) It doesn't matter whether a Chrisitan is baptized or not. THAT sort of difference is sin -- Paul rebuked it among the Corinthians, and I get tired of some Protestants defending it.
 
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Open Heart

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Not exactly. The Oriental Orthodox folks got bounced out fairly early in the process, not to mention others. Then, of course, there was the Great Schism where a certain gentleman in Rome failed to see eye-to-eye with his brethren to the east.
The OO left based on a translational misunderstanding. We know that now -- one of the great victories of ecumenical dialogue.

The Great Schism had more to do with 1) differences in culture between the east and west and 2) quien es mas macho as regards Rome and Constantinople, than it ever had to do with doctrine.

IN ANY CASE, both the OO and EO respect the idea of decisions being made collegially by the bishops of the church.
 
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bekkilyn

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I'm not talking about differences in music or worship style. I'm talking about doctrinal differences. For example there are three CONTRARY doctrines: a)Chrisitans should be baptized b)Christians should not be baptized c) It doesn't matter whether a Chrisitan is baptized or not. THAT sort of difference is sin -- Paul rebuked it among the Corinthians, and I get tired of some Protestants defending it.

I certainly don't want to get into another argument about baptism like I got dragged into on another thread. :)

While baptism is important, I don't really put it on the same level as basic doctrine essential to salvation, such as the triune nature of God, or believing that Jesus is both fully divine and fully human. I think the statements in the Apostle's Creed would probably best represent the doctrine that I would view as most essential for Christian belief, and that most mainstream/traditional denominations would agree with even if they don't specifically use the Creed in services.
 
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Open Heart

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I certainly don't want to get into another argument about baptism like I got dragged into on another thread. :)

While baptism is important, I don't really put it on the same level as basic doctrine essential to salvation, such as the triune nature of God, or believing that Jesus is both fully divine and fully human. I think the statements in the Apostle's Creed would probably best represent the doctrine that I would view as most essential for Christian belief, and that most mainstream/traditional denominations would agree with even if they don't specifically use the Creed in services.
Oh, you are right of course! LOL, no I never meant this to be another argument on baptism, God forbid. :)

While you personally may not put baptism into the same league as the Trinity, others do. And there are others who think you are incorrect for putting the Trinity onto such a high plane. This is why the church has no unity. This is why there has to be ecumenism. As long as some people say that baptism is salvific, and others say it's not even necessary, we are a broken Church in a state of sin.

BTW, I agree with you that the Creeds prioritize the profession. But they don't speak of our obligations in terms of behavior. For example, no creed says that we must have faith, yet we must. No creed says God expects us to abstain from sin, yet we must. No creed says we should be baptized, yet we should. No creed says to break bread, yet Jesus commands it. IOW, the creeds don't discuss behavior. Only belief.
 
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bekkilyn

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Oh, you are right of course! LOL, no I never meant this to be another argument on baptism, God forbid. :)

While you personally may not put baptism into the same league as the Trinity, others do. And there are others who think you are incorrect for putting the Trinity onto such a high plane. This is why the church has no unity. This is why there has to be ecumenism. As long as some people say that baptism is salvific, and others say it's not even necessary, we are a broken Church in a state of sin.

BTW, I agree with you that the Creeds prioritize the profession. But they don't speak of our obligations in terms of behavior. For example, no creed says that we must have faith, yet we must. No creed says God expects us to abstain from sin, yet we must. No creed says we should be baptized, yet we should. No creed says to break bread, yet Jesus commands it. IOW, the creeds don't discuss behavior. Only belief.

The more specific we get when it comes to behavior and belief, the less unity there will be. If there was some way to bring together all denominations into one big Church (and I'm not saying I agree it would be a good idea with the fallen state of the world), I fear it would end up being completely watered-down and meaningless like you implied when we were discussing denominations that didn't "bicker" with one another.

I'd much prefer having multiple, strong denominations than one giant watered down whole. Christ will come someday as promised and gather together his universal church, so we will ultimately have the unity that you crave, but I don't believe it's ever going to happen by human effort, and if it did, chances are very good it would be largely political and corrupt on an even more widespread level than now, because that's how fallen humans tend to operate.

I do agree with ecumenical efforts with churches and denominations working together on things though. I think there could certainly be more unity there despite any theological differences. I regularly participate in activities with other denominations besides my own and there have been plenty of things we have all agreed on.
 
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Open Heart

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The more specific we get when it comes to behavior and belief, the less unity there will be. If there was some way to bring together all denominations into one big Church (and I'm not saying I agree it would be a good idea with the fallen state of the world), I fear it would end up being completely watered-down and meaningless like you implied when we were discussing denominations that didn't "bicker" with one another.

I'd much prefer having multiple, strong denominations than one giant watered down whole. Christ will come someday as promised and gather together his universal church, so we will ultimately have the unity that you crave, but I don't believe it's ever going to happen by human effort, and if it did, chances are very good it would be largely political and corrupt on an even more widespread level than now, because that's how fallen humans tend to operate.

I do agree with ecumenical efforts with churches and denominations working together on things though. I think there could certainly be more unity there despite any theological differences. I regularly participate in activities with other denominations besides my own and there have been plenty of things we have all agreed on.
Yes, I'm with you on that. Each year my Catholic parish hosts an interfaith Good Friday service where pastors from Pentecostal, Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, Anglican, Non-denominational, and Presbyterian churches all get a chance to read sequentially from the scriptures surrounding Jesus trial, death, and burial, and to say a few words, lead a song, or say a prayer.

I believe in a very practical, progressive ecumenism. You start on the outside and work inwards. IOW, you begin with the lowest common denominator, such as feeding the hungry, and you join in those activities as much as possible. The food bank at my parish is a joint effort by ALL the churches in our town. From there you go up to common worship activities as much as can be handled. Obviously since we have different beliefs on communion we are not ready for that yet. But we all believe in things like prayer, songs of worship, and reading of the scriptures. Most churches are at this point of the game. Sadly, there are still some churches (almost always fundamentalist ones) playing the "only we have the true gospel and all the rest of yous are the false gospel and we will have nothing to do with you." We can only continue to reach out to them with love.

Looking to the future, I believe the next bar to leap over is shared communion. This will be easier for some than others. I think there are really only essentially two groups: symbol only and real presence. The symbol only people already break bread together across denominational lines and have for a long time.

The challenge now is for the real presence folks to come to an understanding among ourselves. In the past we have made this a doctrinal issue: you must believe in ALL the doctrine our church teaches or you cannot break bread with us. More and more we are beginning to understand that this doesn't really make sense. The only obstacles to communion are being in a state of sin and not recognizing the body of Christ. Weeeell, now, it's kind of scary to logically take the next step, but if that's true, then if a Lutheran is in a state of grace and believes in Real Presence, they should be able to take communion at a Catholic Church. If a Catholic is in a state of grace and believes in Real Presence they should be able to receive Eucharist at an EO church.

Will the "symbol only" people and the "real presence" people ever see eye to eye? Probably not in my lifetime. But I believe it will happen, because I believe that when people repent, even when they repent of schism, that the Holy Spirit will change hearts and minds and a way will be found.

Once we are all breaking bread together, although we will still not have ideal unity (and we must continue to strive for it), we WILL have necessary unity.

May we all be one as Christ is one with the Father.
 
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