Demons?

[~Anastasia~]

May I please ask a question here?

I posted in Traditional Theology, asking the beliefs of various denominations regarding the literal existence of demons/evil spirits. One Presbyterian poster mentioned that there may be differences between different Presbyterian groups, which distinctions I am not really familiar with. I don't wish to stir any debate or cause any problem, but I was wondering then if there may be differences, and do some Presbyterian group(s) teach the literal existence of demons, while others do not?

I hope it's not a problem to ask here, but is thought I might be the best way to truly understand. Thank you!

 

[hedrick]

First, let me respond from the point of view of traditional Reformed.

This from Sproul’s organization is about the most positive I’ve seen
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/demons-servants-satan/

This article is often cited, and is much more negative.
http://www.kurthutchison.com/demons.html

In general
* Scripture clearly describes demonic activity
* Neither Satan nor his minions have vanished.
* But Reformed tend to take a fairly skeptical view about those who see possession everywhere today, particularly when it involves Christians.

The skepticism is in part because there are Biblical assurances that seem to say that a Christian can’t be possessed. In practice there is very little Reformed activity directed explicitly at demons.


Now I’ll answer for myself. I come from the more liberal branch.

* We think Scripture was written by humans in response to God’s actions. First century writers clearly attributed to demons things that we would attribute to other causes. This likely affects the Biblical accounts of Jesus’ activity.
* However, that Jesus saw himself as fighting Satan is very deeply embedded in the sources. I don’t think any reasonable critical analysis will rid us of the supernatural in Jesus’ teachings, and I think it’s virtually certain that Jesus at least thought he was fighting demons (or Satan) in some of his actions.

There are certainly people in the mainline churches who explain away all supernatural events, both in the 1st Cent and today. But most members don’t go so far, in part because Jesus' own presence, not to mention his resurrection, is by definition supernatural. Personally — and I think this would be pretty common — I’m very skeptical of Christian deliverance people who see demons all over the place, BUT I think it’s possible that there are exception situations where they show themselves. I would, however, work very hard to explain occurrences in some other way if possible.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Thank you, Hedrick. I should have been a bit more specific. I didn't have in mind at all deliverance ministry kinds of things - just very straightforwardly if they actually exist at all.

Thank you for the links also.

I'm curious about the way you worded part of the answer though, and I don't mean to be at all argumentative. But you mentioned that Jesus at least thought that He was fighting demons (or Satan) directly. Does this mean that any group of Presbyterians might believe that it's possible then that Jesus was mistaken in some things?

Thank you again.

 

[hedrick]

I'm curious about the way you worded part of the answer though, and I don't mean to be at all argumentative. But you mentioned that Jesus at least thought that He was fighting demons (or Satan) directly. Does this mean that any group of Presbyterians might believe that it's possible then that Jesus was mistaken in some things?

Thank you again.

Yes, though I'm not sure how common it would be. But really I was distinguishing between pretty clear matters of fact and faith. I don't think any reasonable person can doubt that Jesus thought he was fighting with Satan. Whether Satan or any other supernatural entity actually exists can be and has been doubted. Not by traditional Christians, of course, and not even by most mainline Christians.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Yes, though I'm not sure how common it would be.

Thank you.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Yes, though I'm not sure how common it would be. But really I was distinguishing between pretty clear matters of fact and faith. I don't think any reasonable person can doubt that Jesus thought he was fighting with Satan. Whether Satan or any other supernatural entity actually exists can be and has been doubted. Not by traditional Christians, of course, and not even by most mainline Christians.

Thank you for expanding on that. I didn't really ask my question clearly. Groups of this kind of Christian or that may very well believe or not believe anything at all, so that's beside the point. I should have asked if official Presbyterian doctrine teaches that Jesus was perhaps mistaken and wasn't actually opposing literal demons, because they don't really exist.

And I am guessing from your post, the answer to that question would be no?

 

[hedrick]

Thank you for expanding on that. I didn't really ask my question clearly. Groups of this kind of Christian or that may very well believe or not believe anything at all, so that's beside the point. I should have asked if official Presbyterian doctrine teaches that Jesus was perhaps mistaken and wasn't actually opposing literal demons, because they don't really exist.

And I am guessing from your post, the answer to that question would be no?

It’s difficult to come up with official answers on any of these topics.

On demons, the confessional documents say little. The PCUSA’s book of confessions (which includes also the documents used by the more conservative churches) mentions “doctrines of demons,” but doesn’t reference demons as actual entities. The closest it comes is “THE SECTS. We condemn all who ridicule or by subtle arguments cast doubt upon the immortality of souls, or who say that the soul sleeps or is a part of God. In short, we condemn all opinions of all men, however many, that depart from what has been delivered unto us by the Holy Scriptures in the apostolic Church of Christ concerning creation, angels, and demons, and man.” This is in the 2nd Helvetic Confession.

In a web search, the word “demon” doesn’t seem to appear in the PCA’s web site. The OPC has lots of references, but it has a variety of news, book reviews, etc, so these aren’t necessary official. The most relevant I saw is this: https://www.opc.org/qa.html?question_id=455, which is consistent with my previous posting.

Now, on Christ making errors. Obviously conservative Presbyterians would reject this. I’m not aware of any PCUSA document proposing that it’s true. There are a number of official and semi-official treatments of the authority of Scripture. They often refer to a view much like one I referred to above: Scripture is a human description of human encounters with God. As such, it is subject to human limitations. But I’m not aware of any suggestion that Jesus might have made errors.

Some Christologies held by Presbyterians would be open to that possibility, but I’ve not heard it raised in any official context. The most difficult question would be whether Jesus held any 1st century ideas about the world that we currently believe are wrong. While I don’t think you’ll find any official statements that Jesus was wrong, I think many in the PCUSA would accept that he held 1st Cent beliefs about nature. For him to be wrong on the forces he was personally dealing with would be much more troubling. I'm sure there are people who believe it, but I think it's uncommon. And certainly not an official position.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Thank you for clarifying.

It seems it's not always easy then to say with certainty all the details of what may be believed under a denominational umbrella, but I'm thankful for the guidelines you mentioned. (In some areas we have freedom too, and frequently our beliefs are of the both/and sort, so it can difficult to define all of our common beliefs on some things as well, but maybe for slightly different reasons.)

And thank you for following up and explaining the answers to my questions, as always.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I am going to stick my oar in here. Although my label is Pentecostal, I am the session clerk in my local PCANZ church. I have been a member and elder of the Presbyterian Church since 1996, but have retained my Pentecostal theology. It has been a great learning experience for me and the group of good Presbyterian men who surround me have brought balance to my views and opinions. I also have a strong background in Puritan Calvinist theology as well which put me on the outer in some Arminian Pentecostal circles. So for that reason. the Presbyterian Church (In New Zealand it still observes the Westminster Confession as its guiding document beside the Bible) provides a good theological balance for me. I also have an M.Div from an accredited on-line Bible college in Lousiana, whose staff are affiliated to the Church of Christ. So you see, I am a bit of a mixture.

My view about demons is that they exist and are active in today's world. The devil is the god of this world, and has a multitude of demons to preside over nations, cities, churches, etc., and each have different functions and duties. They are ruled by fear, and if they fail at their job they are cruelly beaten. Their primary purpose in the world is to stop people coming to Christ. Once we understand that, then we understand what demons are about.

I don't believe in the world's popular view of demons as depicted in the movie "The Exorcist" or red ugly dragon like beings running around scaring people. Demons can possess people, but in most cases you would never know because demons don't like to advertise their presence. They will only manifest in a person when an affected person is being counselled by a Christian counsellor who exposes the infection through careful questioning about aspects of that persons life and conduct.

I don't believe in the practice of casting out of demons in public church services. Dealing with demons should be in private and with a fully trained and competent Christian counsellor who is trained in spiritual warfare.

Demons have complete control over people who have not received Christ as Saviour. They have no control over Christian believers. In fact, Christian believers have absolute authority over them and demons have to obey without question.

Demons have full control in Occult and New Age environments, and also in pagan environments when false gods are worshipped. People in third world countries such as Africa, Asia, and South America are more inclined to believe in demon activity than those in Western countries.

Demons usually just influence the thinking of people rather than possess or take full control of them. Some but not all mental health issues can be the influence of demons, especially when people hear strange voices in their heads, and are influenced to commit crimes or kill people for no reason. I believe that some of the mass shootings in American schools have been the result of demon influence. How else can such horrible crimes be explained?

Although I have given this account of demons. I do not believe that there is a demon under every bush, but like spiders and snakes which are not often seen. they are there.

These are just my opinions and you can take them or leave them. I don't mind if you want to debate, but I am not allowed to do that on this forum, so if you would like to do it on the Controversial Theology forum I will be very happy to take part.

Two good books that have taught me a lot about spiritual warfare and how to deal with bondage caused by the influence of demons are:
The Handbook of Spiritual Warfare by Dr Ed Murphy;
The Bondage Breaker by Dr Neil Anderson.

Both of these books take a private counselling approach. Dr Murphy's book traces the influence of demons right through the Old and New Testaments before he gets on to the practical aspects of how to deal with them.

I trust that my post has been helpful to some who might have been worried, concerned about, or fearful of the idea of demons.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I am going to stick my oar in here. Although my label is Pentecostal, I am the session clerk in my local PCANZ church. I have been a member and elder of the Presbyterian Church since 1996, but have retained my Pentecostal theology. It has been a great learning experience for me and the group of good Presbyterian men who surround me have brought balance to my views and opinions. I also have a strong background in Puritan Calvinist theology as well which put me on the outer in some Arminian Pentecostal circles. So for that reason. the Presbyterian Church (In New Zealand it still observes the Westminster Confession as its guiding document beside the Bible) provides a good theological balance for me. I also have an M.Div from an accredited on-line Bible college in Lousiana, whose staff are affiliated to the Church of Christ. So you see, I am a bit of a mixture.

My view about demons is that they exist and are active in today's world. The devil is the god of this world, and has a multitude of demons to preside over nations, cities, churches, etc., and each have different functions and duties. They are ruled by fear, and if they fail at their job they are cruelly beaten. Their primary purpose in the world is to stop people coming to Christ. Once we understand that, then we understand what demons are about.

I don't believe in the world's popular view of demons as depicted in the movie "The Exorcist" or red ugly dragon like beings running around scaring people. Demons can possess people, but in most cases you would never know because demons don't like to advertise their presence. They will only manifest in a person when an affected person is being counselled by a Christian counsellor who exposes the infection through careful questioning about aspects of that persons life and conduct.

I don't believe in the practice of casting out of demons in public church services. Dealing with demons should be in private and with a fully trained and competent Christian counsellor who is trained in spiritual warfare.

Demons have complete control over people who have not received Christ as Saviour. They have no control over Christian believers. In fact, Christian believers have absolute authority over them and demons have to obey without question.

Demons have full control in Occult and New Age environments, and also in pagan environments when false gods are worshipped. People in third world countries such as Africa, Asia, and South America are more inclined to believe in demon activity than those in Western countries.

Demons usually just influence the thinking of people rather than possess or take full control of them. Some but not all mental health issues can be the influence of demons, especially when people hear strange voices in their heads, and are influenced to commit crimes or kill people for no reason. I believe that some of the mass shootings in American schools have been the result of demon influence. How else can such horrible crimes be explained?

Although I have given this account of demons. I do not believe that there is a demon under every bush, but like spiders and snakes which are not often seen. they are there.

These are just my opinions and you can take them or leave them. I don't mind if you want to debate, but I am not allowed to do that on this forum, so if you would like to do it on the Controversial Theology forum I will be very happy to take part.

Two good books that have taught me a lot about spiritual warfare and how to deal with bondage caused by the influence of demons are:
The Handbook of Spiritual Warfare by Dr Ed Murphy;
The Bondage Breaker by Dr Neil Anderson.

Both of these books take a private counselling approach. Dr Murphy's book traces the influence of demons right through the Old and New Testaments before he gets on to the practical aspects of how to deal with them.

I trust that my post has been helpful to some who might have been worried, concerned about, or fearful of the idea of demons.

Thanks for the reply, Oscarr.

I'm not looking to debate either. It's been a while back, but I think I started this thread because someone who said he was Presbyterian said that demons absolutely don't exist. But I don't remember exactly.

I was just surprised, and wondered if that was official Presbyterian teaching, which apparently it is not. That was really all I wanted to know.

Our Tradition has accumulated a good bit of wisdom and understanding regarding demons, but as an individual, we are generally faced with just varying levels of resisting different kinds of temptation and thoughts.

I don't anticipate dealing with "possession". Nor would I attempt it.

 

[JM]

If you ask in the Semper Forum I can offer an answer.

 

[~Anastasia~]

If you ask in the Semper Forum I can offer an answer.

Thank you. It was really more a matter of does the xyz Church believe in abc doctrine ... but you've got my curiosity. If I can get caught up, I'll ask.