Democrats don't want origins of Ukraine probe revealed, just as they didn't want Russia probe known

KCfromNC

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Meh, Hunter Biden was clearly getting paid off in exchange for political favors from his daddy

OK, fine. If they both committed impeachable acts as president, we can impeach both of them.

Oh wait, only one of them is president? Well, then, guess we'll impeach him them.

I mean seriously, is the best defense Donald has "but other people broke the law in the same way"? That doesn't seem to be a winner to me.
 
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KCfromNC

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Oh and that Biden tape is not evidence, and you've been told why at least a dozen times now. Perhaps engaging with people instead of ignoring them and just repeating the same things over and over might avoid you making this mistake in future?

I'm not assuming that posts with intentionally misleading information are a mistake.
 
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KCfromNC

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You're claiming that the Obama policy towards Ukraine was corrupt or even treasonous right?

If so, weird the GOP-controlled Congress didn't impeach.

Much like the whole "Donald was just fighting corruption" narrative, this one feels like it was created after the fact to rationalize Donald's actions as acceptable.
 
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KCfromNC

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Yesterday, Trump Jr referred to the three State Department witnesses from last week as “career government bureaucrats and nothing more."

Coming from someone who has to rely on daddy to get his job in the government, that's kinda hard to take seriously.
 
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LostMarbels

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Much like the whole "Donald was just fighting corruption" narrative, this one feels like it was created after the fact to rationalize Donald's actions as acceptable.

How so? He ran on that platform before he was elected.
 
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KCfromNC

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Your assertion that it was personal doesn't mean it was. Here's what Rand Paul had to say

Rand Paul has zero first-hand knowledge of discussions with and about the Ukraine deal. Thus, based on the criteria we've seen coming from right-wing spin, anything he has to say is hearsay and therefore worthless.
 
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wing2000

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I think you discount the entire premises that Trump was elected to counter and even root-out individuals. He was elected to fight the deep state. This entire argument that Trump is going against individuals that are running for 2020 make no sense seeing Trump was elected 3 years before they even ran against him. And he ran on the platform of being the most 'existential threat' to globalism ever known.

The deep state does not exist. So yes, I do reject your entire premise - good day.
 
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GodLovesCats

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It is illegal for this President.

If it bis illegal for one, it is illegal for all.
Again, it wasn't Trump. Therefore, it is permissible. To suggest anything else is just wild conspiracy.

Everyone who has seen the phone call transcript knows it could only be Trump.
 
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KCfromNC

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KCfromNC

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I think you discount the entire premises that Trump was elected to counter and even root-out individuals. He was elected to fight the deep state.
Given how many of his employees are in jail or under investigation, either he's really bad at his job or he was lying to people about this goal. Kinda sad they haven't caught on to the con yet.
 
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GodLovesCats

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And here's what the President actually said, "I would like you to do us a favor though..." He said US meaning the nation of the United States, not me as an individual.

The pronoun "us" simply means at least two people want the same favor. It could be Trump and Pence - who, of course, are running together again next year - and that would make it a personal request despite the use of a plural pronoun.
 
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KCfromNC

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How so? He ran on that platform before he was elected.
And then did nothing about it until he wanted a foreign government to interfere in our elections. Like I said, a convenient excuse when it is needed but not something that he actually seems to care about being consistent about. If I were a follower of his, I'd start to wonder what else he was using to try and fool me.
 
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FreeinChrist

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Meh, Hunter Biden was clearly getting paid off in exchange for political favors from his daddy ... to the tune of a billion dollars in aid. Trump had every right to ask for that to be investigated.

It's not even arguable otherwise. Joe Biden was caught on tape demanding a QUID PRO QUO.
No, that is flat out not true. That is just a desperate right wing line.
Fact - Joe Biden was representing the Obama administration view and it was a bipartisan view at the time. It also was the view of the IMF and EU and more. Joe threaten to withhold money to Ukraine if they did not fire a prosecutor who was slow-walking investigations, and was not really investigating Burisma. Hunter was hired to do a job.

But I understand some are stuck in the right wing line for all this.
Here is an article for those who are not:
What Joe Biden Actually Did in Ukraine

Within months, though, the State Department began suspecting that the office of Mr. Poroshenko’s first prosecutor general was accepting bribes to protect Mykola Zlochevsky, the oligarch owner of Burisma Holdings, the gas company where Hunter Biden was a board member. In a February 2015 meeting in Kiev with a deputy prosecutor, a State Department official named George P. Kent demanded to know “who took the bribe and how much was it?”

The prosecutor general was fired soon after. But it wasn’t long before the new prosecutor, Viktor Shokin, was drawing allegations of corruption, including from State Department officials who suspected he was shaking down targets and intentionally slow-walking investigations to protect allies.

Mr. Giuliani has claimed, without evidence, that Mr. Biden’s push to oust Mr. Shokin was an attempt to block scrutiny of his son’s actions. In fact, Mr. Biden was just one of many officials calling for Mr. Shokin to go. Good-government activists were protesting his actions in the streets, as were eurozone power players like Christine Lagarde, then the managing director of the International Monetary Fund, along with Ms. Nuland and Senate Republicans.

“The position regarding getting rid of Shokin was not Vice President Biden’s position; it was the position of the U.S. government, as well as the European Union and international financial institutions,” said Amos J. Hochstein, former coordinator for international energy affairs at the State Department and one of the few administration officials who directly confronted Mr. Biden at the time about his son.......

By late 2015, American officials had grown so frustrated with Mr. Poroshenko’s sluggish response on all fronts that Mr. Biden was dispatched to make the case publicly for reforms to the Ukrainian Parliament.

That December, in a speech that he later described as one of the most important he had ever delivered, the vice president told legislators they had “to remove all conflicts between their business interest and their government responsibilities.” He also singled out the natural gas industry, saying, “The energy sector needs to be competitive, ruled by market principles — not sweetheart deals.”....

Mr. Shokin was eventually fired, but only months later, after I.M.F. officials threatened to withdraw funding.....


Bob Bauer, former Obama White House counsel and Biden adviser, said that even pressuring Hunter Biden to quit the board would have constituted a breach of that firewall, and suggested that was one of the reasons the vice president chose not to do it. “The independent activities of an adult child simply don’t create a ‘conflict of interest’ for the parent who is a public official,” he said. “And as a matter of sound ethical practice, it is important for officials in this position to maintain that distance: to be able to show that, in doing their jobs, they could not have been affected by discussions or involvement with their adult children relating to private business matters. Their posture has to be, ‘Whatever you decide to do, I am going to do what I have to do.’”

Mr. Biden has said he first learned of his son’s activities in Ukraine when the story broke in 2014. He told his son, “I hope you know what you are doing,” according to Hunter Biden’s account of their discussion in The New Yorker earlier this year.
It is a good article. It has a firewall but you can get a certain number of free articles a month.
 
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FreeinChrist

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Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

The problem with Shokin -- in the eyes of U.S. leaders, their Western allies, the International Monetary Fund and many Ukrainians -- wasn’t that he was being too aggressive about corruption, but that he was being far too lax. In May, Bloomberg News reported that prosecutors in Ukraine had shelved the investigation into Zlochevsky by 2015, meaning Hunter Biden didn’t stand to benefit from the prosecutor’s ouster. Vitaliy Kasko, who pursued the case against Burisma’s owner as deputy prosecutor and is now first deputy prosecutor in the new government, told Bloomberg News that there had been no U.S. pressure to close that case. Former Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko also told Bloomberg News that Biden never asked him to close any cases.​
 
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hedrick

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The deep state does not exist. So yes, I do reject your entire premise - good day.
Actually the deep state does exist. There are many people in government, including friends of Trump, trying to protect it, and even Trump himself, from Trump's weird decision-making. It's quite understandable that he should think he's surrounded by a conspiracy to control him. He is. And he should be. Indeed every president has weaknesses, and part of the job of his staff is to keep the weaknesses from have too much effect. It's just a lot more drastic with Trump.
 
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SimplyMe

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You act as if Trump will be allowed to betray his base and get away with it. Many are along for the ride thus far. Hell hath no fury should he turn his back on us. Those who support Trump want the corruption out and have had enough. Trump would be ousted. My opinion.

Odd then that I've not seen the furor over Trump not putting Clinton in jail, much less even investigating her. And this idea that we're going to "soon" get a bunch of "deep state" indictments has been going on for quite a while, even leading to a forum "joke" in how it will all be released "next Wednesday."

Instead, it seems the majority of Trump's supporters have no desire to hold him accountable for anything; instead they buy into his claims that it is all the "deep state" stopping him -- but the only corruption being rooted out, at least so far, is largely from his own administration.
 
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KCfromNC

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You act as if Trump will be allowed to betray his base and get away with it.

They let him get away with failing to get Mexico to pay for a wall, failing to repeal Obamcare, and so on. I don't see any reason to think they're suddenly going to hold Donald accountable now.
 
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NightHawkeye

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No, that is flat out not true. That is just a desperate right wing line.
Incorrect.

The problem Democrats have is that Joe Biden is on video demanding Ukraine immediately fire the prosecutor investigating his son's company ... or else a billion dollars in aid would be withheld.

That's a QUID PRO QUO ... do this if you want the money ... some would call it a BRIBE for personal favor. The only real question is the degree of illegality.
 
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Bobber

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The pronoun "us" simply means at least two people want the same favor. It could be Trump and Pence - who, of course, are running together again next year - and that would make it a personal request despite the use of a plural pronoun.
Nice try.
 
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