Defund the police. What does that mean?

[Ken-1122]

The idea probably being that those funds would in long run decrease activities police need to react to and thus smaller resources would be needed for the police.

They aren’t talking about less money in the long run, they are talking about an immediate cut in funds and spending those funds on specific things they have in mind.

As mentioned it is a very abstract concept. In some places under some smart people it would probably work, on others probably not so much.

Under which concepts do you suppose it would probably work?

Also one goal is to get police to shake up things like their training and equipment. No idea what level of wrong kind of or wasteful training police go through every year.

Then how come they don’t learn about police training and equipment, find out the problems with it and fight to change that? That would be the reasonable and responsible thing to do.

The interesting question will be who is going to determine that.

The police has shown that their self regulating has been less than stellar.

Then how come they don’t learn about police training and equipment, find out the problems with it and fight to change that? That would be the reasonable and responsible thing to do.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

Think about it as means to getting to glorious afterlife.

Then think about various ways people are planning to accomplish that.

Then summarize that.

Yeah, pass.

 

[RDKirk]

Not really.

There is a successful system in some US cities and in Australia, the Crisis Intervention Team model (I believe it originated in Memphis). It involves special police training (4 or 5 days) to give police some tools for (1) identifying mental health as the core issue and (2) managing the mental health crisis situation.

This has to be teamed with streamlined medical processes, so that police have a designated place to take people with identified mental health problems, at which medical staff will see them promptly (a hospital ER does not always satisfy those criteria).

An alternate system is to have "mental health paramedics" that deploy with police to mental health crisis situations. That would be a high-risk job, and it's not always easy to get people to volunteer for it.

I think the mental health issues on the street down under are probably less severe, particularly remembering that the US doesn't have universal health care, so there are many, many more severe mental health cases in the US on the street that get zero treatment.

In the US, there will be both more violence and more severe health issues on the street.

 

[RDKirk]

I think the call to defund police is being taken way too seriously.

I agree.

 

[Radagast]

I think the mental health issues on the street down under are probably less severe, particularly remembering that the US doesn't have universal health care, so there are many, many more severe mental health cases in the US on the street that get zero treatment.

In the US, there will be both more violence and more severe health issues on the street.

Perhaps; but the Memphis Model seems to work.

The greater availability of guns in the US is just one more reason to send in cops trained in the Memphis Model, rather than social workers in body armour.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Why not train the Police on how to handle the mentally ill???

A good working example is Inkster Michigan. It is a black community and many of the Police there has Masters degrees in Psychology and have done internships in that area. The same people who trained the Psychologists have trained them.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Google Mental Health training for law enforcement
Google train police psychology handle homeless

http://www.buttehomelesscoc.com/uploads/1/1/7/5/117500423/policeresponsetohomelessness.pdf
Mental Illness and Policing: What is Mental Health Training and Why Do Police Need it?

The better solution would be to make education for police paid for like the military does. Psychologist can do ride alongs into the real world. The misbehavior of a few officers, fallible human beings should not do harm to those who are part of the solutions -- at least in the USA.

I have been witnessing in the rough parts of Detroit and the near by suburbs when I have a chance. People have told me that they have seen an army of people walking around me, when in fact I am the only one there. I have never seen the angels walking with me.

Other times, I have walked into the area without angels because my presence has gotten people to ask many questions. People who first see me have a look of surprise. I hold out my hand to shake theirs. I miss doing this during the virus problem.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Perhaps; but the Memphis Model seems to work.

The greater availability of guns in the US is just one more reason to send in cops trained in the Memphis Model, rather than social workers in body armour.

I grew up in a black majority area, Inkster Michigan. Social workers in body armour would be less effective. They would have to go in without any kind of protection to gain people's trust in Detroit and Grand Rapids. As would be true of the streets north of downtown Denver. While stationed at Lowery AFB, I would shop for books there. Wave to everyone regardless of who they were. Being friendly and not afraid of others stops all kinds of trouble. I see everyone one as nothing more than a fellow human being.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

It's an opposing skill set.

Here is an idea, send all the Police in a State on a long paid vacation including training as part of it, to see what happens. Have each State put this on the November Ballot to send Police on Vacation from June 15, 2021 to September 15, 2021.

 

[RDKirk]

Google Mental Health training for law enforcement
Google train police psychology handle homeless

http://www.buttehomelesscoc.com/uploads/1/1/7/5/117500423/policeresponsetohomelessness.pdf
Mental Illness and Policing: What is Mental Health Training and Why Do Police Need it?

The better solution would be to make education for police paid for like the military does. Psychologist can do ride alongs into the real world. The misbehavior of a few officers, fallible human beings should not do harm to those who are part of the solutions -- at least in the USA.

I have been witnessing in the rough parts of Detroit and the near by suburbs when I have a chance. People have told me that they have seen an army of people walking around me, when in fact I am the only one there. I have never seen the angels walking with me.

Other times, I have walked into the area without angels because my presence has gotten people to ask many questions. People who first see me have a look of surprise. I hold out my hand to shake theirs. I miss doing this during the virus problem.

When my family attended Calvary Chapel of Honolulu in the mid-90s, the pastor took wife abuse seriously enough that when it was discovered in the congregation, a special team of members composed of police officers, club bouncers, soldiers, and football players--plus trained therapists and psychological counselors--would intervene in the situation and even go so far as to remove the wife and children to a confidential safe house. But they used a team, and each member of the team had a role to play.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The best way to change the behavior of the police is to properly adjudicate and treat offenders after their arrest. As it is the criminal justice system brutalizes everyone involved.

 

[Ken-1122]

The best way to change the behavior of the police is to properly adjudicate and treat offenders after their arrest. As it is the criminal justice system brutalizes everyone involved.

What does that mean? What should be done differently than what is done now?

 

[Caliban]

There is a lot going around where people are calling to defund the police; but whenever I ask about details, nobody seems to be able to give me a straight answer.

Some say defund meaning no more law enforcement; but does that mean if I am bigger and stronger than you, I can go over to your house and take what I want without consequence?

Others say cut 50% from the police budget. But why 50%? Where did they get that number from? Do they know the police budget? Do they see waste where the same thing can be done half the money? Some say use mental health professionals for some jobs the police are tasked to do, thus cutting back on police; but how does that result in less funds? The money saved by police will be used in the increased funds of mental health professionals; thus no money is saved. So what does this mean? If anybody understands this idea I would appreciate your input

It means crime will go up.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

What does that mean? What should be done differently than what is done now?

Don't frustrate the police by allowing offenders back on the street so soon. Lock them up for longer periods, but improve their treatment while incarcerated. At this time the whole criminal justice system is a mess.

 

[RDKirk]

Don't frustrate the police by allowing offenders back on the street so soon. Lock them up for longer periods, but improve their treatment while incarcerated. At this time the whole criminal justice system is a mess.

Do you mean deny bail across the board while awaiting trial?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Do you mean deny bail across the board while awaiting trial?

I was referring to the jail time they serve, not bail.

 

[RDKirk]

I was referring to the jail time they serve, not bail.

So you think sentences are too short?

 

[Ken-1122]

Don't frustrate the police by allowing offenders back on the street so soon. Lock them up for longer periods, but improve their treatment while incarcerated. At this time the whole criminal justice system is a mess.

The criminal justice system varies from state to state right? Have you examined each state's criminal justice system individually and determined each are a mess? It's easy to say something can get better; that applies no matter how good you are. I guess my question is, are you referring to specific states you have had experience in, or are you judging each system in every state.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

So you think sentences are too short?

I do, and first offense probation should be done away in favor of some jail time. I favor longer sentences with more constructive rehab programs. Of course we need to reduce prison numbers through other programs as well. The whole thing needs reform.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The criminal justice system varies from state to state right? Have you examined each state's criminal justice system individually and determined each are a mess? It's easy to say something can get better; that applies no matter how good you are. I guess my question is, are you referring to specific states you have had experience in, or are you judging each system in every state.

Based on our crime problem nationally I'd say the mess is widespread.