Defining the Great Tribulation

[Criada]

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Stipulations:

1. Topic:Defining the Great Tribulation
2. Participants: Barraco and mark kennedy
3. Rounds: 8
   
4. Alternating rounds starting each with Barraco being the first postfor a total of 16 posts.
5. Time limit between posts: 3 days maximum, there is no minimum.
6. Maximum length for each post: Limited to 500 words
   
7. Quotes and References are allowed; Please note that all quotes will fall under the 20% rule.
8. No videos, visual aids are permitted, no more than 2 per post.
   
9. Start Date: Wednesday 19th December 2012
   

Outline format:

Round 1: Opening statements
Barraco's opening remarks
Mark's opening remarks

Round 2: First positive argument
Barraco's first argument
Mark's rebuttal

Round 3: Second positive argument
Mark's first argument
Barraco's rebuttal

Round 4: First exposition of proof texts (Revelations)
Barraco's proof texts examined and explained
Mark's counter proofs and rebuttal

Round 5: Second exposition of proof texts (Revelations)
Mark's proof texts examined and explained
Barracos counter proofs and rebuttal

Round 6: First round of final arguments and summary
Barracos final argument and summary
Mark's counter argument and summary

Round 7: Second round of final arguments and summary
Mark's final argument and summary
Barracos counter argument and summary

Round 8: Closing thoughts
Barracos closing thoughts
Mark's closing thoughts

Link to Peanut Gallery here: PEANUT GALLERY - Formal Debate - Defining the Great Tribulation

 

[Barraco]

Thank you Craida for opening up the forum for debate. Mark, may this discussion lead to truth and praise to God the Most High.

I would like to open up the debate by attempting to define the Great Tribulation from a Biblical defintion as a dispensation spanning thousands of years from the time Stephen was stoned to the end of the times of the Gentiles rather than a seven year period at some point in the future.
I think what misleads many is the assertation that the tribulation is far greater than has ever been experienced, relegating the possibility that the Great Tribulation is a Great Duration of Tribulation rather than a singular massive persecution.

Romans 11 specifies a distinction between the nation of Israel and the Gentiles. Romans 11:25-26 indicates there were was a temporary blindness put on the Jews by God for the salvation of the Gentiles until the Fullness of the Gentiles has come through. And then the blindness on the Jews would be lifted so that 'all of Israel will be saved.'

Paul explained that the rejection of the Jews would mean blessings for the Gentiles. So naturally, when the Gentiles prosper, the Jews suffer.
The Jews suffered under the curse that Jesus took on Himself. (Deuteronomy 28:15-68, Galatians 3:13) They are still Israel because of God's promise to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; though not all.

But that isn't the only aspect of the Great Tribulation, for it began when Stephan was stined and the Church chased out of Jerusalem. The Church suffered as a testimony of Christ. When the Romans persecuted the Church, they spread the Gospel, praising the name of King Jesus. They also do that by enjoying God's blessings for obeying the Gospel. That is the significance if the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11. They are the Gentile Church, obeying the Gospel and keeping the testimony of Jesus. Their acceptance is meant to lead the Jews to jealousy, thereby bringing the Jews to obedience to the Gospel.

"For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?" (Romans 11:15 ESV)

This falls in line with the end of the testimony of the two witnesses in Revelation 11. The witnesses are resurrected and those in Jerusalem glorify God. Thus, the Times of the Gentiles ends and the Great Tribulation with it.

This seems more Biblically and logically supported than the seven year tribulation that futurists propose.

 

[mark kennedy]

First of all I would like to thank Barraco for agreeing to this debate. One of the subjects I have studied over the several decades since I accepted Christ the most is Apologetics which is a Greek word used for a defense in court. The evidences for the Christian faith have as their fulcrum the accumulated testimonies of Scripture that chronicle redemptive history, quite literally, from the beginning of the world. I have spent most of my time on CF debating origins with evolutionists, a topic I regard as an exercise in evidential apologetics. The historical aspects of Scripture are vital to our doctrine and teachings but there is one aspect that should never be regarded as historical, the Parousia of Christ:

In the New Testament especially of the advent, i.e., the future, visible, return from heaven of Jesus, the Messiah, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God. (Thayer's Lexicon, Strong's G3952)​

The Revelation (aka Revelations) describes in great detail the event leading up to the return of Christ and is marked by a series of judgments the usher in the Parousia. There are 7 seals (Rev. 1-7), trumpets (Rev. 8-14) and finally the vials of wrath (Rev. 15-21). I am astonished that anyone could interpret this book of Messianic prophecy as any thing other then futuristic. My opponent would seem to have an argument for an historical interpretation so I am very interested in hearing him out on the matter. For my part, I will be presenting and defending the traditional view of Christians that are anxiously waited for the appearing and soon return of Christ according to the promise of the Gospel. Maranatha!

With that Barraco has the first positive argument describing his position as he sees fit. This is planned as an unusually long debate given the subject matter so I won't belabor the introduction to the subject any further.

Special thanks to Criada for agreeing to moderate the debate. Let all things be done unto edifying and in the spirit of the debate forums on CF, may the truth prevail.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Barraco]

Thank you Mark for setting the ground work from which you will be arguing from.

From a historical perspective, the Great Tribulation overlaps what Luke 21:24 calls, the Times of the Gentiles. To understand the Times of the Gentiles one must consider the fact that, up until Peter received the vision of the blanket with unclean animals and Paul was commissioned to witness to the Gentiles, the acceptance of the Gentiles into God's covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; the promises of Israel. Before that, it was a mystery.

Paul explained in Colossians 1:26-28 that the mystery of the acceptance of the Gentiles was hidden from the eyes of the Jews; riddled among oracles of the Old Testament prophets. Revelation 10 says that, before seventh trumpet is sounded, the mystery of God would be fulfilled. In context, chapter 10:11 tells John to prophecy again to the Gentiles, indicating that everything beforehand was not meant for the Gentiles. That separates the point where the Jews are rejected and the Gentiles are accepted. That point was in 70 CE. The natural branches, according to Romans 11, were hewn off and the wild branches were grafted into the cultivated olive tree (Israel.) The kingdom of God was taken from the Jews and given to other nations producing better fruit (Matthew 21:43-44.) Jerusalem was to be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles were fulfilled (Luke 21:24.) And thus, the Jews would suffer the curse of the Law since they rejected the fact that Jesus took it upon Himself in their place (Galatians 3:13), and were temporarily blinded until the fullness of the Gentiles is complete (Romans 11:25-26.) When Jerusalem finally receives their savior, the times of the Gentiles will be fulfilled. That mystery was hidden even from the apostles until the last days of Jerusalem, when the Church fled the city like Lot fled Sodom before it was utterly destroyed (Luke 17:28-37.)
One last thing: Jesus said that His return would happen immediately after the 'tribulation of those days' (Matthew 24:29.) What isn't often noticed is that the tribulation that Jesus spoke of was related to the Jews and Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15-21.)
Jesus did not return in 70 CE, or 74 CE for that matter.

So, the Great Tribulation has been going on since Jerusalem was decreed to be destroyed. The reason why the great amount of time wasn't mentioned was because it purposefully omitted that time frame. The discussion was regarding the Jews and Jerusalem, not the Gentiles. Therefore, Jerusalem would in tribulation until the days that it was restored and cleansed from all unrighteousness (Zech. 13:1.) Consequently, the Times of the Gentiles won't be fulfilled until that time is over.

 

[mark kennedy]

Thank you Mark for setting the ground work from which you will be arguing from.

Since the discussion is about the Great Tribulation I want to make an early distinction. I regard the book of Revelations as being thematically divisible into two discernible sections.

At the end of the Church age (Rev 1-5), The Tribulation (Rev 6,7) starts the last of the 70 weeks of Daniel. The halfway point seems to be here:

And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.” (Rev. 11:3,4)​

The starts the time sometimes refereed to the Great Tribulation (Rev. 15-21).

More on that in the exposition. Obviously, I am taking a Dispensational view of the period even though I'm anything but a strict Dispensationalist.

From a historical perspective, the Great Tribulation overlaps what Luke 21:24 calls, the Times of the Gentiles. To understand the Times of the Gentiles one must consider the fact that, up until Peter received the vision of the blanket with unclean animals and Paul was commissioned to witness to the Gentiles, the acceptance of the Gentiles into God's covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; the promises of Israel. Before that, it was a mystery.

The time of the trampling of Jerusalem has not ceased, it will continue until the Parousia , or, 'the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God', (see Parousia)

Paul explained in Colossians 1:26-28 that the mystery of the acceptance of the Gentiles was hidden from the eyes of the Jews; riddled among oracles of the Old Testament prophets.

The mystery of the revelation of the inclusion of the Gentiles was the primary focus of Paul's ministry, no doubt about that one. While this is significant in the historical context of the Gospel but there is a future promise that we must wait for:

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. (Col. 3:3,4)​

Revelation 10 says that, before seventh trumpet is sounded, the mystery of God would be fulfilled. In context, chapter 10:11 tells John to prophecy again to the Gentiles, indicating that everything beforehand was not meant for the Gentiles. That separates the point where the Jews are rejected and the Gentiles are accepted. That point was in 70 CE.

I'll have to get into that in the exposition.

The natural branches, according to Romans 11, were hewn off and the wild branches were grafted into the cultivated olive tree (Israel.) The kingdom of God was taken from the Jews and given to other nations producing better fruit (Matthew 21:43-44.) Jerusalem was to be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles were fulfilled (Luke 21:24.) And thus, the Jews would suffer the curse of the Law since they rejected the fact that Jesus took it upon Himself in their place (Galatians 3:13), and were temporarily blinded until the fullness of the Gentiles is complete (Romans 11:25-26.) When Jerusalem finally receives their savior, the times of the Gentiles will be fulfilled. That mystery was hidden even from the apostles until the last days of Jerusalem, when the Church fled the city like Lot fled Sodom before it was utterly destroyed (Luke 17:28-37.)
One last thing: Jesus said that His return would happen immediately after the 'tribulation of those days' (Matthew 24:29.) What isn't often noticed is that the tribulation that Jesus spoke of was related to the Jews and Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15-21.)

That's an excellent exposition, one that I have very few problems with. What we have here is a predictive prophecy that is at least partially fulfilled. How much that remains unfulfilled is what the debate is focused on right now.

Jesus did not return in 70 CE, or 74 CE for that matter.

Jesus did not return in 2,000 years and counting.

So, the Great Tribulation has been going on since Jerusalem was decreed to be destroyed. The reason why the great amount of time wasn't mentioned was because it purposefully omitted that time frame. The discussion was regarding the Jews and Jerusalem, not the Gentiles. Therefore, Jerusalem would in tribulation until the days that it was restored and cleansed from all unrighteousness (Zech. 13:1.) Consequently, the Times of the Gentiles won't be fulfilled until that time is over.

So we are in agreement that the times of the Gentiles ends with the return of Christ. The Tribulation and the Great Tribulation I regard as also predictive and as yet, unfulfilled.

There is really no way to explain this except by doing an exposition. The next post will be my positive argument, It will be easier to deal with the specifics with the primary texts laid out for us. So far things are starting off a little slow but this will or should prove itself to be a long discussion. Looking forward to getting into the details.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[mark kennedy]

If you were to take a look at Daniel 2 and 7 you would see a detailed description of successive kingdoms, the fourth being Rome. According to New Testament prophecy the Parousia happens at the end of the age. Immediately proceeding there will be the revelation of a coming king, described in the first four seals, aka the four horsemen.

At the end of the Church age (Rev 1-5), The Tribulation (Rev 6,7) starts the last of the 70 weeks of Daniel. The halfway point seems to be here:

And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.” (Rev. 11:3,4)​

The starts the time sometimes refereed to the Great Tribulation, or the time following the abomination of desolation. (Rev. 15-21). This happens at exactly 3 1/2 years into the tribulation, the second half being so bad because of the vials of wrath. Utter ecological devastation is predicted during the times of the vials, I'm not exaggerating:

From chapters 6 - 7 are the seals then 8 and 9 are the first six trumpets. From chapter 10 - 15 there is a break in the judgments, 15 being the seven vials of wrath.

6) 7 Seals opened, S-1 (seal one) thru S-5
7) The 144,000 sealed, the world hides from the Lamb

8) S-7 Silence, Trumpets sounded (T-1 thru T4)
9) T-5 Locusts, T-6 Euphrates
​

The Scriptures have been established by predictive prophecy, especially messianic prophecy. We are still waiting for the full revelation, when that happens (the Parousia) every eye shall see him:

Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen. (Rev 1-7)​

Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?” (Rev 6:15 - 17)​

Throughout the Revelation there are a multitude of 'saints', specifically during the opening of the 5th seal. The 6th seal would appear to be divine retribution on their behalf.

I won't belabor the point since I am obviously taking a traditionally literal, somewhat dispensational view. The Scriptures have made many detailed predictive prophecies, most of the have been fulfilled. By far the return of Christ is the most common predictive prophecy in the book. When the Bible starts getting specific with regards to times and periods it usually follows a pattern.

That said, sorry it took so long to get this up, the holidays have had me distracted. The discussion so far has been pretty general, looking forward to seeing how this 'historical' perspective looks as an exposition.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Barraco]

If you were to take a look at Daniel 2 and 7 you would see a detailed description of successive kingdoms, the fourth being Rome. According to New Testament prophecy the Parousia happens at the end of the age. Immediately proceeding there will be the revelation of a coming king, described in the first four seals, aka the four horsemen.

I agree that the fourth kingdom is Rome. You said that the Parousia happens at the end of the age. Which age? The book of Daniel only accounted for the age of the Jews, and its foretold end. Daniel did not account of the age of the Gentiles. It was sealed from his understanding, as shown in Daniel 12:4,9) This is the mystery that Paul said was hidden from the Jews in Ephesians 3:3-8). Therefore, the basis of my rebuttal will that the use of Daniel, especially chapter 9, is not justified in defending the tribulation of Gentile churches, since Daniel wrote primarily about the Jews and Jerusalem.

At the end of the Church age (Rev 1-5), The Tribulation (Rev 6,7) starts the last of the 70 weeks of Daniel. The halfway point seems to be here:
And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.” (Rev. 11:3,4)
The starts the time sometimes refereed to the Great Tribulation, or the time following the abomination of desolation. (Rev. 15-21). This happens at exactly 3 1/2 years into the tribulation, the second half being so bad because of the vials of wrath. Utter ecological devastation is predicted during the times of the vials, I'm not exaggerating:

From chapters 6 - 7 are the seals then 8 and 9 are the first six trumpets. From chapter 10 - 15 there is a break in the judgments, 15 being the seven vials of wrath.
6) 7 Seals opened, S-1 (seal one) thru S-5
7) The 144,000 sealed, the world hides from the Lamb

8) S-7 Silence, Trumpets sounded (T-1 thru T4)
9) T-5 Locusts, T-6 Euphrates

By Church age, I assume you meant the age of the Gentiles; the Times of the Gentiles? Before I challenge your entire premise, I would like to challenge your use of Daniel 9:24-27, the Seventy Weeks.

What is your justification for inserting the Church age (Times of the Gentiles) in between the last week of Daniel 9's seventy weeks of years? I've yet to find one.

Why would Daniel completely omit Jerusalem's destruction in 70 CE in favor of a third destruction? Don't you think that the second destruction would be relevant to the context established in 9:24? Somehow, we have to work out the fact that Daniel 9:27 is about the destruction of the second temple and Jerusalem. If you read Jospehus' account, he reveals very startling details about the condition of the Jews in Jerusalem after they fled Gischala. Josephus revealed that the robbers fled to Jerusalem with the other Jews, took over the city, and abolished the high priesthood along with its traditions. They then anointed their own high priest, whom had no idea what the high priesthood was, and they entered into the sanctuary. This caused many of reputation and wisdom to lament and either flee the city or fight over the temple.

Somewhere, Daniel 9:27 was fulfilled in this. Abominations had overspread on a wing of the temple, bringing out its destruction until the decreed desolation was poured out on its desolator. In other words, the temple was to be trampled over by Gentiles until the desolation that Jerusalem faced was poured out on Rome, the desolator. Not surprisingly, we find that Christ calls His people out of Babylon (Rome) so that they do not share in its destruction. This makes better sense than somehow stretching Scripture to state that there was an inexplicable gap of 2,000 years between seven years of prophecy.

The Scriptures have been established by predictive prophecy, especially messianic prophecy. We are still waiting for the full revelation, when that happens (the Parousia) every eye shall see him:
Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen. (Rev 1-7)

This was taken from Zechariah 12:10, whose resolution is seen in 13:1, where the house of David and all of Judah (the Jewish Nation) is cleaned from all unrighteousness. This is a predictive prophecy that will be fulfilled at the end of the Times of the Gentiles.

Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?” (Rev 6:15 - 17)

This is taken from Isaiah 2:19. If you read verse one, this prophecy was made to Judah and Jerusalem. Therefore, the sixth seal was a declaration of judgment against the Jewish Nation in the first century.

Throughout the Revelation there are a multitude of 'saints', specifically during the opening of the 5th seal. The 6th seal would appear to be divine retribution on their behalf.

I would like to show what Jesus said to the Jewish leadership and indeed all of Jerusalem:

"Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! See, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord." (Matthew 23:34-39 ESV)

The saints under the alter in the fifth seal were the faithful among the Jews that had followed Jesus. I think Josephus shows enough of why Jerusalem was so utterly destroyed: It's people were so utterly depraved.

I won't belabor the point since I am obviously taking a traditionally literal, somewhat dispensational view. The Scriptures have made many detailed predictive prophecies, most of the have been fulfilled. By far the return of Christ is the most common predictive prophecy in the book. When the Bible starts getting specific with regards to times and periods it usually follows a pattern.

That said, sorry it took so long to get this up, the holidays have had me distracted. The discussion so far has been pretty general, looking forward to seeing how this 'historical' perspective looks as an exposition.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Thanks for staying engaged in this debate, it definitely sharpens me.

In all, the point of my rebuttal was that Daniel 9:24-27 is not a justifiable source of information about the Great Tribulation that you are speaking about. The passage in Daniel 9 relates primarily to the destruction of rebuilt temple and the city of Jerusalem and cannot therefore be speaking about the persecution of the Church, which you described as the Gentiles.

 

[Barraco]

I don't think I covered all of your argument in my rebuttal and would like to continue with it as part of my positive argument. It actually fits seamlessly.

Earlier you described Daniel 2 and 7 to cover the Great Tribulation with the Roman Empire. I purposely didn't cover this in my rebuttal because I'm not entirely in disagreement. I think that it rather defends the point I want to make in this response:

Chapter 10 describes the shift in Covenant History: The Times of the Gentiles.

With that point, I want to defend that the Gentiles would experience much the same that the Jews experienced in their time. They would be persecuted like the ethnic Israel was kept in bondage. They would rule like David ruled. They would split up like Jeroboam and Rehoboam split up Israel. They would have political corruption and they would persecute their challengers like Ahab and Jezebel persecuted the prophets. And their great city will be put to an end like Rome had utterly destroyed Jerusalem.

And that is what is covered in Rev. 11-14. Revelation 11 introduces a new idea of Gentiles being persecuted and ruling their persecutors. This idea is defended with the fact that when ever they are harmed, their oppressors would be harmed in the same manner. And they would plague the earth as often as they want until the resentment among the nations has reached its zenith, culminating in the end of the Times of the Gentiles. But chapter 11 hardly goes into detail.

Revelation 12 opens up a new dialogue. You could even say that it is starting over with a new theme: The End of the Times of the Gentiles and the Great Tribulation of the Saints. This theme can hardly be grasped without an introduction in chapter 11 though. Chapter 12 covers the transition between the Times of the Jews and the Times of the Gentiles, which Revelation 11 briefly and covertly covered; when the saints would be persecuted and then rule their persecutors.

Chapter 13 opens up to your points about Daniel 2 and 7's last kingdom, the Roman Empire. The issue with Daniel is that he only covered the Times of the Jews. So, we are often left confused by the omission of details because the Times of the Gentiles was omitted. I really want to elaborate, but I think I will have time to do that later. I will only go on to say that Revelation 13 covers the time that the Roman Empire splits and falls to Germanic tribes, is healed by the king of Rome (the pope), and persecutes the saints. It goes on to cover the rule of the Spanish Empire, its intolerance of challengers to the Roman Church, and its massive expansion of both Spanish authority and Roman Catholicism. At last, Revelation 14 covers the reintroduction of the Jewish nation upon receiving Jesus, the completion of the witness of the Gentiles, and the destruction of Rome. After Rome's destruction, the Great Tribulation comes to an end and Christ returns for His beloved, the dead are resurrected, and all opposition to His authority is put to an end at Jerusalem.

The Great Tribulation that you spoke of, therefore, is a time that happens over a course of Gentile Church history, rather than seven years in the future. I hope that rebutting your interpretation of Daniel 9 would sufficiently put this argument in right standing.

 

[mark kennedy]

What the historical perspective always misses, there is one key thing that has not occurred yet, the Parousia of Christ:

In the New Testament especially of the advent, i.e., the future, visible, return from heaven of Jesus, the Messiah, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God. (Thayer's Lexicon, Strong's G3952)​

The Revelation (aka Revelations) describes in great detail the event leading up to the return of Christ and is marked by a series of judgments the usher in the Parousia.

With that point, I want to defend that the Gentiles would experience much the same that the Jews experienced in their time. They would be persecuted like the ethnic Israel was kept in bondage. They would rule like David ruled. They would split up like Jeroboam and Rehoboam split up Israel. They would have political corruption and they would persecute their challengers like Ahab and Jezebel persecuted the prophets. And their great city will be put to an end like Rome had utterly destroyed Jerusalem.

There has to be a point of reference, we are not talking about an indiscriminate desolation, this one is given great specificity. This, called the 'abomination that causes desolation', is a singular event that happens, exactly half way through the tribulation starting what is known as the Great Tribulation. Of course, Jerusalem fell once to Babylon and again to Rome. I see no way the Parousia and the events surrounding the return of Christ have been close to fulfillment. The devastation of the vials of wrath decimate the earth, literally. All men are cowering in caves and dens of the rocks to hide themselves from the wrath. When did this happen?:

They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?” (Rev 6:16, 17))​

This is actually pretty early in the tribulation, this happens after the sixth seal. The thing about this passage the strikes me is that they know exactly what is happening and why.

And that is what is covered in Rev. 11-14. Revelation 11 introduces a new idea of Gentiles being persecuted and ruling their persecutors. This idea is defended with the fact that when ever they are harmed, their oppressors would be harmed in the same manner. And they would plague the earth as often as they want until the resentment among the nations has reached its zenith, culminating in the end of the Times of the Gentiles. But chapter 11 hardly goes into detail.

The times of the gentiles are over at the end of the Tribulation, in fact, they are pretty much over with the opening of the first seal. Or only real difference regarding the times of the Gentiles is when it actually ends and that will be right around the time of the Parousia.

Revelation 12 opens up a new dialogue. You could even say that it is starting over with a new theme: The End of the Times of the Gentiles and the Great Tribulation of the Saints. This theme can hardly be grasped without an introduction in chapter 11 though. Chapter 12 covers the transition between the Times of the Jews and the Times of the Gentiles, which Revelation 11 briefly and covertly covered; when the saints would be persecuted and then rule their persecutors.

Tribulation saints are featured throughout the Tribulation, it would appear to be one of the main reasons God started these judgments in the first place. The host of the martyrs beneath the alter:

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” (Rev. 6:9, 10)​

The 4th seal had claimed 1/4th of the earth. The fifth seal is a complaint, the sixth seal is judgment on the people of the earth who committed the atrocities of the first four seals. It's actually pretty easy to follow the narrative.

Chapter 13 opens up to your points about Daniel 2 and 7's last kingdom, the Roman Empire. The issue with Daniel is that he only covered the Times of the Jews. So, we are often left confused by the omission of details because the Times of the Gentiles was omitted. I really want to elaborate, but I think I will have time to do that later. I will only go on to say that Revelation 13 covers the time that the Roman Empire splits and falls to Germanic tribes, is healed by the king of Rome (the pope), and persecutes the saints. It goes on to cover the rule of the Spanish Empire, its intolerance of challengers to the Roman Church, and its massive expansion of both Spanish authority and Roman Catholicism. At last, Revelation 14 covers the reintroduction of the Jewish nation upon receiving Jesus, the completion of the witness of the Gentiles, and the destruction of Rome. After Rome's destruction, the Great Tribulation comes to an end and Christ returns for His beloved, the dead are resurrected, and all opposition to His authority is put to an end at Jerusalem.

Ok, think heads like lions which of course, are also the feet of iron mixed with clay. There will be a final kingdom that will be smashed during the Parousia. Even in Daniel 2 we have an unfulfilled prophecy:

Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold—the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure.” (Dan. 2:45)​

The Great Tribulation that you spoke of, therefore, is a time that happens over a course of Gentile Church history, rather than seven years in the future. I hope that rebutting your interpretation of Daniel 9 would sufficiently put this argument in right standing.

Just one question before I start my exposition, why would this time be so specific if it's such a generality?

And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. (Rev. 11:3)​

That is exactly three and a half years into the Tribulation, no other explanation for that exact number of days being exactly in the middle of the book. Too many specifics that cannot have been fulfilled yet with anything that has happened during the 'Times of the Gentiles'. Most importantly, the Parousia.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[mark kennedy]

I am a little unclear on the order, this debate is a little longer then I'm used to. I believe this is the start of the third round that will cover the exposition of the Revelation. I have a list of events predicted in the Revelation(s), that I regard as predictive prophecy. I have already belabored the point of the Parousia being a future event and received no counter argument as yet.

This is the series of events as they fit a seven year scenario. I'm not here to tell you what to believe, this exposition is designed to show you whats there. The book falls logically and almost, exactly, into 3 groups of exactly 7.

1) The Revelation of the Son of Man
2) 7 Letters to the 7 Churches
3) 7 Letters continued
4) 7 Lamps of fire (Menorah)
5) 7 Seals to be opened by the Lamb
6) 7 Seals opened, S-1 (seal one) thru S-5
7) The 144,000 sealed, the world hides from the Lamb​

Only the first four chapters cover what is known as, the 'Times of the Gentiles'. What you will find is that the concept is nearly with a Dispensational Church Age scenario. What we have never seen, quite frankly, is the opening of the seals. The entire book from the opening of the seals is predictive, with an occasional historical reflection. There is no way that all happened including the sealing of the 144,000 and the world hiding in caves occurred in the first century. Let's move on:

8) S-7 Silence, Trumpets sounded (T-1 thru T4)
9) T-5 Locusts, T-6 Euphrates
10) The Angel and the Little Book
11) The Two Witnesses clothed in sackcloth
12) The Woman, Child, Dragon
13) The Beast of the Land and the Beast of the Sea
14) 3 Angels proclaim: 144,000, Gospel, Wrath on 666​

Are you aware of the devastations associated with these judgments. Some specific details included:

The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and afire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. (Rev. 8:7-9)​

The ratio 1/3 part seems global in it's scope. I can accept a fair amount of hyperbole in the Scriptures, it's actually part of it's literary style. What I see clear reason to deny is that these events as described can be accounted for historically. Indeed, we are still living during the 'Times of the Gentiles', which will end with a seven year tribulation, immediately proceeding the Parousia.

15) 7 Angels given the 7 Vials of Wrath
16) Vials of Wrath: V-1 thru V-7
17) Babylon and the Beast with 7 heads
18) The wine of the wrath of her fall
19) The wedding feast of the Lamb
20) The Dragon bound 1,000 years
21) The New Jerusalem​

I want you to take a minute and consider not what it means, but what it says:

The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood as of a dead man. Every living thing in the sea died. (Rev. 16:3)​

In case you missed it, 'every living thing in the sea died'.

The third poured out his bowl into the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood. (Rev. 16:4)​

All water turned to blood was one of the plagues of the Exodus, not the only one seen. What is new about this is that all water is turned to blood. Now I welcome an explanation from an historical perspective and expect I'll see one. That's not what's important to understand here, it should be appreciated that the events described are global in scope. That's not how I interpret these passages but what they are actually saying.

I heard the angel of the waters saying, "You are righteous, who are and who were, you Holy One, because you have judged these things. (Rev. 16:5)​

Not only were the angels there to cheer when God created the world, they will be there to cheer when God destroys it at the end of the age. What! You may well be wondering, could bring about such utter devastation and the explanation is as follows:

For they poured out the blood of the saints and the prophets, and you have given them blood to drink. They deserve this." (Rev. 16:6)​

The sin that brought such devastating judgments was bloodshed on the 'saints and the prophets'. Indeed, many saints and prophets have suffered bitter persecutions historically, they do presently and will throughout the Tribulation.

Obviously, I am not about to dismiss this all as dramatic poetry. Highly detailed specifics are referenced regarding Messianic promises. It is consistently referenced throughout the Gospels laying claim to a high degree of specific predictions fulfilled. The fact is that the prophetic trail ends with the cross:

From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until The Anointed One the Ruler comes there will be seven weeks and sixty two weeks. It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench but in times of trouble. After the sixty two weeks the Anointed One will be cut off and have nothing. (Dan. 9:26)​

I think Daniel dovetails perfectly with the Revelation. Clearly, the Anointed One is Christ and he is 'cut off' at the cross. That's after 62 weeks, I assume here it means to include the 7 additional weeks which comes to 69 weeks prescribed in Daniel 9 and all but the last week accounted for. What happened to the last week?

The Dispensational answer is that the prophetic stopwatch stopped at the cross. At the half way point of the Tribulation Israel repents and the Jew and Gentile are finally joined as God always intended. I am quite certain, the events described in the Revelation cannot be accounted for historically but I am anxious to hear you try.

Anyway, Barraco now gets to take a close look at my positive argument and present his own exposition. So far I think we have covered a great deal of ground in too little time, it's unfortunate but it's a big subject. Looking forward to the next two rounds especially his exposition of the Revelation. Then, if I understand the order right, Barraco starts off the fourth round.

Oh and lets not forget:

22) The Healing of the Nations​

There is a reason that Genesis 1 is important, it's because God is going to do it again.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Barraco]

Hi Mark, I do not disagree that the Parousia has not occurred yet. Given that, I don't think that the Great Tribulation has ended. As I said when I opened up, I believe that the Great Tribulation goes over an extended period of time through history, rather than a period of only seven years. I will answer your question later about why such a general time when it was given a specific amount of time.

The seals are basically events leading up to the war on Judea, from the time Jesus resurrected and received all authority in heaven and on earth (Matthew 28:18, Revelation 5) until the Romans destroyed Jerusalem (6th trumpet, Revelation 9:21.) To defend this, I'll show you that the seals basically follow the Olivet Discourse and its variant of Matt. 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. Jesus laid out the events like this:

- There would be wars and rumors of wars (first seal)
- Nations would rise against nation (second seal)
- There would be famines (third seal)
- And pestilences in various places (fourth seal)
- But before all this, they (Jews) will deliver your up to tribulation. (Fifth Seal) This is why there are souls under the altar crying for vengeance and being told to wait longer until the number of their brethren is complete. Its evident they had been oppressed for a while.
- So when you see the abomination of desolation standing in the sanctuary, then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. (Sixth Seal)

I want you to read Isaiah 2, so I can prove my point about people saying to the mountains: "Fall on us and hide us from the wrath of God and the wrath of the Lamb!"

"The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem...And the haughtiness of man shall be humbled, and the loft pride of men shall be brought low, and the LORD alone will be exalted in that day. And the idols shall utterly pass away. And people shall enter the caves of the rocks and the holes of the ground, from before the terror of the LORD, and from the splendor of his majesty, when he rises to terrify the earth." (Isa. 2:1, 17-19; ESV)

When Jesus was being lead out to his crucifixion, the paid mourners mourned for Him. His reply was:

"Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For behold, the days are coming when they will say, 'Blessed are the barren and the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed! Then they will begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us' and to the hills, 'Cover us.'" (Luke 23:28-30)

Jesus evidently spoke about Jerusalem's destruction. The reference to "Fall on us!" is a dramatic expression of the terror the people of Judah and Jerusalem (per Isaiah 2:1, 17-19) faced when the war on Judea began. To further defend this, I want to refer to Matthew 22:1-14's parable of the wedding feast. Please take the time to read it, so I can save space in my reply.

Those who were invited (Jews) to the wedding feast (kingdom of God) ignored the king's servants (disciples) and even killed them. Because of this (fifth seal), the king was angry (wrath of God) and sent his troops (Romans) and destroyed those murders (the Jews) and burned their city (Jerusalem.)

So, I adequately defended my interpretation of both the Olivet Discourse and the Seven Seals. But there still remains the question about Rev. 7's 144,000 and Gentile multitude.

Between the sixth and seventh seal, 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel are sealed (elect) and a great multitude of Gentiles praise God. This is referring to the eye-witness disciples and their disciples being called out of Judea before its destruction. Romans 11:1-5 covers this well, even saying, "So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace." Of the same event, Jesus said, "Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot--they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all--so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed." (Luke 17:28-29; ESV)

Because the Jews rejected Jesus, and because the elect were chased out of Jerusalem, and because Jerusalem was destroyed, and because the kingdom of God was taken from the Jews and given to the Gentiles, we can enjoy the pleasure of God's presence. Moving on, I want to recap the trumpets:

- Trumpet 1 was the battle of Jotapata, where Josephus was capture
- Trumpet 2 was the battle of Joppa, where the sea was turned to blood with dead bodies from shipwrecks, suicides, and the slain. (Read Josephus' Wars of the Jews for more info.
- Trumpet 3 was the false christs (like John of Gischala) leading many Jews to Jerusalem for salvation, where wickedness would grow beyond imagination. (See Jeremiah 23:14-15 for more details.) This was when the abomination of desolation was set up. When John and his band of thugs entered into Jerusalem, they overthrew the high priesthood, formed their own, and profaned the temple. God would never let the temple be profaned unless it was by His own people. Then they refuse His protection.
-Trumpet 4 was the great suffering of the Jews at the hands of their own people, the seditious lot that hijacked the war. In Genesis 37:9-10, it becomes quite clear that the sun, moon, and stars are Jacob, his wife, and his twelve sons; the nation of Israel.
-Trumpet 5 was the siege that Titus laid against Jerusalem, starving them of resources. This siege is said to have lasted five months. During this time, those that were in the city starved to death. Those that didn't die begged for death, according to Josephus, whenever the seditious Jews broke in looking for food. Of course, the seditious wouldn't even grant them that request.
-Trumpet 6 is the destruction of the temple, the 1.1 million Jews that fled to the city, and the burning of the entire city (except for the tower of Antonia.)

Like Matthew 22:1-14's parable of the wedding feast shows the servants going to all places inviting both good and bad people to the feast, so did the Times of the Gentiles begin. That is why there is a pause between the sixth and seventh trumpet to make a fresh prophecy about many peoples, language, nations, and kings; the Gentiles (Rev. 10:11.) I will leave off here and form my exposition on the Great Tribulation, hoping that I have once and for all settled questions about the seals.

I will make my positive argument hopefully tonight or tomorrow at the latest.

 

[Barraco]

For my positive argument,

I would like to start by elaborating on the seven trumpets, particularly the sixth. In the trumpet blasts, the damage is done to thirds. Only after the sixth trumpet blast does this make sense.

The thirds represent the people of Shem, namely the Hebrews. When Noah died, he had three sons. Humanity was divided thenceforth into three groups: The people of Shem, Ham, and Japheth. Thus, in the sixth trumpet, the Jewish Nation is destroyed. At Jerusalem's destruction in 70 CE, 1.1 million Jews died. That's just in Jerusalem. Jews everywhere in the Roman Empire were being oppressed, shamed, and killed. Jesus said in Matthew 24:22 that, if their tribulation was not cut short, no flesh (of Shem) would have been spared. But for the sake of the elect (the apostles and early disciples), that time was cut short.

Even Josephus used the ambiguous term of Shem to describe the Jewish rebels:

“When the front of the Jewish army had been cut off, the Jews retired into the city; but still Simon, the son of Giora, fell upon the backs of the Romans, as they were ascending up Bethoron, and put the hindmost of the army into disorder, and carried off many of the beasts that carried the weapons of war, and led Shem into the city. But as Cestius tarried there three days, the Jews seized upon the elevated parts of the city, and set watches at the entrances into the city, and appeared openly resolved not to rest when once the Romans should begin to march.”

This was the only time in his book The Wars of the Jews that Josephus used the word Shem, and he obviously used it to describe the Jewish rebels. One third of the world's people is evidently a reference to Shem. I could explain the other trumpets, but I don't think it is necessary. I'd like to give my exposition on the Great Tribulation finally, now that I have divided the book of Revelation into prophecies regarding the Times of the Jews, which Rev. 1:3 says was near its end, and prophecies regarding the Times of the Gentiles, which Rev. 10:11 clearly states.

The Great Tribulation was detailed in Revelation 13. The chapter described the Roman Empire, but only after its division. This is reminiscent of Solomon's kingdom after it was divided between his two sons. Two tribes stayed South while ten tribes claimed the Northern Kingdom. The ten horns having each a crown, unlike the dragon of Rev. 12, is the divided Roman Empire. After Theodosius I died, the Roman Empire split into two kingdoms to help manage it. The Germanic peoples took over the Western Empire. Therefore, the beast is primarily focused on the Western Empire. The mouth that it is given is the bishop of Rome, whom crowned the Holy Roman Empire's first emperor, Charlemagne. This kingdom would silence all challengers during the crusades, establishing the inquisition against all 'heretics.' This kingdom lasted until the 15th century, when the Spanish Empire took over. That's when things got really bad.

The Spanish Empire centralized the Inquisition, headed by the Dominican order, and spread Roman Catholicism to the Americas and any place they conquered. The Spanish Empire was once known as the Empire On Which The Sun Never Sets. Many Jews were also tried and killed in the Inquisition, alongside many reformers. The reformers were eventually exiled from France, taking their skills with them. The French economy greatly suffered, leading to the French Revolution.

Revelation 14 makes it clear though: The Great Tribulation is not over until Babylon the Great is destroyed. That doesn't happen until the seventh vial of God's wrath.

So the vials of wrath are against the beast, those that took its mark, and Babylon the Great, mother of harlots. Since the French Revolution, these plagues have been destroying the beast's dominion. Even today, we are seeing the sixth vial of God's wrath. The reference to the Euphrates drying up was not a literal reference but was quoting how Babylon was taken by Cyrus of Persia. Babylon was fortified to withstand years of constant siege, but Cyrus dug channels in the Euphrates to lower it so that his army could march through the river gate and take the city by surprise. That is why Jesus interjects by saying, "Behold, I am coming like a thief!..." People would be caught off guard by the vial of wrath.

Notice that the sixth plague shows three demons coming out of the mouths of the Dragon, Beast, and false prophet. The purpose of these is to gather the kings of the earth for battle; or World War. Not only one, but three! The Dragon was the territories of all the empires from Babylon to Rome. That was World War I, which saw millions of deaths and even the end of the great Ottoman Empire. The beast was Western Europe. From that came World War II, out of Germany. The Third World War will come out of the mouth of the false prophet, the bishop of Rome. I know this sounds extraordinary, but I think it is possible. Revelation 17 obviously covers the city of Rome, calling it Babylon. The seventh vial of God's wrath also sees the destruction of Babylon (Rome). Therefore, Rome will start the next world war, and it will claim millions. That is why Revelation 18:4 says, "Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues..." I wouldn't find much support if St. Malachy's prophecy of the popes didn't also support that.

Still, given what we are shown in Revelation 11, the Great Tribulation doesn't end until the Times of the Gentiles ends, marked by Babylon's destruction, just as the Times of the Jews' end was marked by Jerusalem's destruction. The Great Tribulation, then, isn't a short period of persecution, but is marked by an extended amount of time in which the saints have little to no power at all.

How did 42 months become a general amount of time? The 42 months, 1260 days, and time, times, and half a time all refer to the amount of time that the apostate Jews oppressed the faithful Jews during the reign of Antiochus IV Epiphanes. That 3.5 years would become a symbol for religious oppression and falsehood. Elijah prayed during the reign of Ahab and the apostasy of Jezebel that no rain would quench the earth. For 3.5 years, it did not rain. During that time, the prophets and saints were killed for not worshiping Baal. That is why the mouth of the beast is allowed to rule for 42 months and make war against the saints. That is why the woman is nurtured in the wilderness for 1260, like the Jews fled Jerusalem when the abomination of desolation occupied the temple. That is why the saints are given into the hand of the little horn for a time, times, and half a time.

The 3.5 years became symbolic for a time of persecution and tribulation. It is not literally 3.5 years.

 

[mark kennedy]

For my rebuttal I'm going to do address what I feel are the high points of the two previous posts. Since the Revelation and Daniel are really the focus I'll try to keep it concise in order to have more space for more of an exposition. I also wanted to tell you that if you provide the book, chapter and verse of Scripture I will look it up. There is no real need to quote it in the post unless you just want to for whatever reason. On to the proof texts:

I want you to read Isaiah 2, so I can prove my point about people saying to the mountains: "Fall on us and hide us from the wrath of God and the wrath of the Lamb!"

Revelations uses Is. 2:19, 27 to describe man's flight from the terrors of the tribulation during the period before Christ's personal return. This shows that the final fulfillment of this prophecy will be during Daniel's 70th week. (Rev. 6:12, 15, 16 Is. 2:19)

I would like to start by elaborating on the seven trumpets, particularly the sixth. In the trumpet blasts, the damage is done to thirds.

The Trumpet blasts are of greater intensity that then seals, but not as destructive as the vials of wrath (Rev. 16:1-21). The time of each is indefinite, except the effects of the fifth trumpet judgment which will last 5 months (Rev. 9:10). The first four strike the earth's ecology, cataclysmic to the point of the sky being darkened, the visibility of the heavens (sun, moon etc) is reduced by 1/3. Nothing like this has happened in human history unless you want to count the Deluge of Genesis.

Let's take a look at the 6th Trumpet (T-6):

"So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind."​

The final 3 Trumpets involve demonic and angelic devastation that result specifically and in clear language, in the death of 1/3 of humanity. Nothing like this has happened in human history and won't, up until the the Parousia. As a matter of fact the Parousia would be a better name for the book since there is a great deal of confusion about what is being 'revealed' in this text.

The thirds represent the people of Shem, namely the Hebrews.

When the Scriptures make a comparison of two like things (metaphors, parables) the interpenetration is usually found in the immediate context. Now there are times that God refers to descendants by the name of their father, Israel for example was Jacobs covenant name. The Hebrews were sometimes referred to as Jacob and are known as Israel for that reason.

I have divided the book of Revelation into prophecies regarding the Times of the Jews, which Rev. 1:3 says was near its end, and prophecies regarding the Times of the Gentiles, which Rev. 10:11 clearly states.

Revelation 1:3 tells us that the time of the Parousia is close, not the 'times of the Jews' and 10:11 simple states that John must prophecy, that's it. The only logical division of the book into two parts is between the Tribulation (the first 3 1/2 years) and the Great Tribulation starting with, 'the abomination that causes desolation'.

The Great Tribulation was detailed in Revelation 13.

The Great Tribulation was detailed from the 7th Trumpet blast that follows the ascension of the Two Witnesses until the last vial of wrath. Revelations 13 is the prophecy concerning the Beast from the Sea (the kingdom of the 'little horn') and the False Prophet.

Revelation 14 makes it clear though: The Great Tribulation is not over until Babylon the Great is destroyed. That doesn't happen until the seventh vial of God's wrath.

I fail to see how the Great Tribulation could be over when the vials of wrath aren't poured out yet. What is more the Tribulation period ends with the kingdoms of this world becoming the kingdoms of our Lord:

Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Rev. 11:15)​

We have already agreed that is hasn't happened yet since it's inextricably linked to the Parousia. The 7 year Tribulation period is, in fact, the Parousia as it unfolds. It's the coming (return) of Christ in power and glory and every eye shall see him.

So the vials of wrath are against the beast, those that took its mark, and Babylon the Great, mother of harlots. Since the French Revolution, these plagues have been destroying the beast's dominion.

I have yet to see how the Trumpets have been fulfilled prior to the French Revolution or that the vials of wrath are being poured out in our day. Babylon the Great will be destroyed during the Great Tribulation by the Beast. This city, probably some kind of an island, is decimated at this time. That line of interpretation doesn't come from a substantive exposition, it would appear to be speculative with only a loose connection to the text.

The 3.5 years became symbolic for a time of persecution and tribulation. It is not literally 3.5 years.

Again, that is proof by assertion rather then substantive support. When the Scriptures make statements using specific numerical values there is no reason, to do we have the license, to change the meaning. When it says 3 1/2 years it means 3 1/2 years unless there is a valid reason, usually in the immediate context that it means something else.

In my next post I will be arguing my exposition and proof texts. This part of the debate is my whole reason for deciding to take up the gauntlet in the first place. I believe the quickest way to clarity in the Scriptures is when the Scriptures speak we speak and when they are silent we should remain silent. The Scriptures speak expressly regarding these predictive prophecies indicating that while patterns in history may be similar, none of the cataclysms during the opening of the seals, sounding of the trumpets or pour out of the vials of wrath have occurred.

Jesus is asked, 'What will be the sign of thy coming' (Matt. 24:3). That's what Matthew 24 is focused on and so is the Revelation.

And then shall that Wicked be revealed , whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming (2Th 2:8)​

This hasn't happened yet, no Christian scholar would dare suggest such a thing. The best way of demonstrating exactly what will happen at that time is a sound exposition of the Revelation and related Scriptures. This I will do, God willing, in the next post.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[mark kennedy]

I have taken so long to post this one simply because it's the most important thing we will discuss. I want you to stop with me and consider one very important element. What the text actually describes. Just as Genesis is our history past the Revelation is our future. The subject is unmistakably the return of Christ, as subject that was very important to the Apostles. In the Gospel of John you have a unique dialog, John spends more time on the last three days then the other Gospel writers. Those three days take up almost half his book.:

“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me, but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me. (John 14:28-31)​

In short, he is leaving and the Holy Spirit is coming to be with them until he returns. There is no serious question about this. What follows is the most accurate exposition of the book of the Revelation I can manage. What I am most interested in are the seals and the trumpets, that is where most of the specifics are. If I touch on the second half of the book more lightly, that's why:

1. The Son of Man to the Church
2. Letter to the 7 Churches of Asian Minor
3. Letters continued.
4. The Menorah​

This is where we are at in the prophetic timeline.

The Lamb now takes the scroll (ch 5) and begins to open the seals, all 6 opened in the 6th chapter:

S-1 World Conqueror
S-2 World War
S-3 World Famine
S-4 World Catastrophe
S-5 Cry of the Martyrs
S-6 Divine Retribution​

The Seventh Seal isn't opened until Chapter 8, with the opening of the last seal, the sounding of the Trumpets start:

T-1 One/Third of the trees and grass struck.
T-2 One/Third of the seas turn to blood.
T-3 One/Third of the water made wormwood.
T-4 One/Third of the sky darkened
T-5 Locusts from the Abyss.
T-6 Euphrates stomped dry.​

This is not the most extraordinary claim, the final wave, the vials of wrath are next. But first the Bible takes us to Jerusalem where the two witnesses have been prophesying now for 42 months (or 1,260 days; 3 1/2 years) (Rev. 11:11-14). What happens after that is called the 3rd woe (Rev. 11:14).

Up until and including chapter 14, are the Trumpets followed by personages. With the 15th chapter the narrative describes the prelude to the vials. The vials are poured out in chapter 16:

V-1 Sores
V-2 Sea turns to blood.
V-3 Waters turn to blood.
V-4 Scorching sun.
V-5 Darkness and pain.
V-6 Euphrates dried up.
V-7 Earth utterly shaken.​

The level of decimation would appear to be global. Those remaining gather for the final battle at Armageddon:

And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. (Rev. 16:16)​

The final battle is described as a stormy sea with a beast rising up out of it. I'll save you some time, the sea is us, not the church but the world of humanity. Babylon is actually a city and it's attacked by the Beast from the Sea. Babylon, who is riding on his back is suddenly hated by the beast. This, the author tells us, is because God made the Beast hate her.

That is the narrative as I understand it. The outline follows a very easy to follow and discernible pattern, seals (1-7); trumpets (8-14); vials (15-21); healing of the nations (22).

We would appear to be in complete agreement about the Parousia, since it hasn't happened yet. These events are inextricably linked to the return of Christ in power and glory, bringing all things in subjection to the will of the Father. This is not finally accomplished until the end of the 1,000 year reign of Christ. Chapter 21 is the new creation.

I see no way this has been literally fulfilled historically but I'm perfectly willing to hear you out on this matter. My sincere apologies for how long to took to get this post up, it's an important exposition.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Barraco]

We would appear to be in complete agreement about the Parousia, since it hasn't happened yet. These events are inextricably linked to the return of Christ in power and glory, bringing all things in subjection to the will of the Father. This is not finally accomplished until the end of the 1,000 year reign of Christ. Chapter 21 is the new creation.

I see no way this has been literally fulfilled historically but I'm perfectly willing to hear you out on this matter. My sincere apologies for how long to took to get this post up, it's an important exposition.

Grace and peace,
Mark

This post will be longer than my usual ones. I have taken a more historical approach to Revelation. For so long, I had treated the book like it was a revelation of end times solely for some future generation. I have parted ways with that notion. For one of the reasons, and a very important one, treating the Revelation of Jesus Christ as prophecy that matters only to the far distant future separates the text from the context of its original audience.

Something happened that scholars are erring over. I think one part is the dating. Despite what Iranaeus said, and how Eusebius likely took it, I believe Revelation was written before Jerusalem was destroyed. If you move it to 65 or 66 CE, it makes more sense. War was about to break out or had already broke out and Christians in Judea fled the country to the seven churches addressed in Revelation 1-3. Paul had been decapitated and Peter crucified upside down. John was on Patmos Island awaiting his death. While he was there, Rome likely went to war with Jerusalem. John received the Revelation because the Times of the Jews was coming to an end, as was foretold in Daniel 9:24-27's prophecy of the seventy weeks of years. Jerusalem was about to be destroyed and the Gentiles were about to receive the kingdom of God. This was foretold in so many of Jesus' parables. It is very key in understanding the parables. This was a big deal to the first Christians.

That being said, I would like to address how I view Revelation.

The letters to the seven churches were addressed to the disciples that had fled Judea. What they are shown in the following chapters is that God is sovereign and in control of all this chaos going on. To display God's sovereignty, Revelation opens up the prophecies with showing the throne room in heaven. It then shows Jesus Christ coming to the throne and receiving that sovereignty and ruling (Matt. 28:18). What we are seeing then is a playback.

"Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this." (Revelation 1:19 ESV)

Then Jesus begins opening seals. The seals are described in the Gospel narratives in the Olivet Discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13, as well as the similar discussion of Luke 21. It goes as follows:

First Seal: "And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars." (Matthew 24:6 ESV)

Second Seal: "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom..." (Matthew 24:7 ESV)

Third Seal: "and there will be famines" (Matthew 24:7 ESV)

Fourth Seal: "There will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences." (Luke 21:11 ESV)

Fifth Seal: "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake." (Matthew 24:9 ESV)

Sixth Seal: "But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be ( let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains." (Mark 13:14 ESV)

I also want to point out this: "And there followed him a great multitude of the people and of women who were mourning and lamenting for him. But turning to them Jesus said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For behold, the days are coming when they will say, "Blessed are the barren and the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!" Then they will begin to say to the mountains, "Fall on us," and to the hills, "Cover us." (Luke 23:27-30 ESV)

The sixth seal was introducing the war in Judea. It had finally broke out.

The 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel sealed: "Let the one who is on the housetop not go down, nor enter his house, to take anything out, and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak." (Mark 13:15, 16 ESV)

The 144,000 were the elect, those among the Jews whom God had reserved as an elect remnant that would follow Jesus no matter what. These were the first disciples. The ones that John wrote to.

The great Gentile multitude clothed in white: "And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." (Matthew 24:14 ESV) The end, of course, being the end of the Times of the Jews. The fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant to make his seed as countless as the stars in the sky and to bless all families of the earth through him would come. That's what it was about. The Jewish religious leaders were holding back the kingdom of God until they were taken out of the way. That is the end that John spoke about.

"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near." (Revelation 1:3 ESV)

So, once the elect fled to Asia-Minor and various places to escape the Jewish war, they brought the Gospel to the Gentiles where there word was actually received. And by that, Jesus subdued all nations. There was left one thing left to do: Avenge the saints whom were murdered by Jerusalem. ""O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! See, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord." (Matthew 23:37-39 ESV)

The seventh seal is broken down into seven trumpet blasts, but the sequence is paused after the sixth trumpet. For better details on my interpretation, read Flavius Josephus' The Wars of the Jews. Josephus discussed the war systematically.

First Trumpet: The Romans started in Jotapata, where Josephus was captured. All the men were slain and a remnant of women and children were taken captive. The place was sieged and pelted with 100 lb stones, even killing some men on the way down.

Second Trumpet: The Romans then secured Galilee at the battle of Joppa. There was a huge sea battle there between the Jews and the Romans. Many ships were wrecked along the shore. As the pirates tried to escape, they were slain by the Romans. Josephus notes that the sea turned to blood from all the dead bodies from the shipwreck. And many killed themselves in the water too. Then those Jews who were slain on shore were thrown into the sea by the Romans.

Third Trumpet: False prophets were unleashed to rally support for the Jewish war. As they fled the cities that were taken by the Romans, they encouraged many Jews to flee with them to Jerusalem. John of Gischala and his band of thugs arrived in Jerusalem and decided to fight for the leadership. He disbanded the traditonal high priesthood and set up his own, even killing priests in the temple. The civil war landed with Eleazor dying and John co-ruling with Simon. The sedition costed the lives of many men. John then thought it fit to endorse more false prophets to ensure that the people there would not flee. So, because many believed the lies that the Jews would win the war, many men perished.

"Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land. Thus saith the Lord of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the Lord . They say still unto them that despise me, The Lord hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you." (Jeremiah 23:15-17 KJV)

"For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape." (1 Thessalonians 5:3 KJV)

Fourth Trumpet: This is where the entire situation at Jerusalem becomes bleak. The civil war split John and Simon while the people are oppressed in the midst. With Eleazor dead, crime and lawlessness abounded. There was no light in the eye; meaning there was no godliness in the leadership.

"And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." (Matthew 24:12 KJV) Paul also spoke about this lawlessness in 2 Thessalonians 2. He said that the lawless one would be hidden until he that restrains lawlessness is taken out of the way. I believe Paul was talking about the high priest. When the high priest was removed from his position and a man who didn't even know what the high priesthood constituted was put in his place, lawlessness broke out just as in the days of Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

Fifth Trumpet: In dramatic language, the fifth trumpet was fulfilled in the siege of Titus, when the Romans starved the Jews at Jerusalem. Those who were not sealed were all the others Jews that weren't Jesus' elect disciples. With the siege limiting resources, the seditious robbed and oppressed the residents of Jerusalem. When the residents went so long without food, they begged the seditious to kill them while they lived motionless on the ground. The seditious let them suffer. And so they begged for death, but it did not come.

Also, the siege lasted 5 months.

Sixth Trumpet: Once the siege was complete, the Romans broke through the temple walls and killed as many as they passed so that the ground everywhere was covered with dead bodies. The Romans then burned the temple and the rest of the city with fire. Between 600,000 and 1.1 million Jews died at Jerusalem. The third of mankind killed in the seventh trumpet is not a body count. It's talking about the division of mankind. Noah had three sons: Ham, Japheth, and Shem. The Jews came from Shem.

""When the front of the Jewish army had been cut off, the Jews retired into the city; but still Simon, the son of Giora, fell upon the backs of the Romans, as they were ascending up Bethoron, and put the hindmost of the army into disorder, and carried off many of the beasts that carried the weapons of war, and led Shem into the city. But as Cestius tarried there three days, the Jews seized upon the elevated parts of the city, and set watches at the entrances into the city, and appeared openly resolved not to rest when once the Romans should begin to march."

- Josephus, Flavius. "The Wars of the Jews; or the history of the destruction of Jerusalem."

So, Josephus, used Shem and the Jews interchangeably, which defends my statement.

Then the sequence is interrupted in chapter 10 to describe what verse 11 shows to be a prophecy about the Gentiles. Until the seventh trumpet, the Gentiles receive the kingdom of God. It is the Times of the Gentiles. This time is elaborated more in Rev. 12:17, 13-14:1. It all goes back to show that the Jews would be blinded until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob..." (Romans 11:25, 26 KJV)

The seals and trumpets are not talking about huge cataclysmic situations that the original audience would not have seen. The rest of the book seems to deal with the Times of the Gentiles, which later generations would discover. If we can't get the book in its rightful historical context, it shouldn't surprise anyone that all kinds of fancy models of interpretations.

 

[Barraco]

Throughout the debate, I've challenged the status quo on what many readily accept about things they can only wildly speculate about. I've challenged the tribulation is not a future seven year period and I think I've provided a strong argument against it as well as provided a suitable explanation of what it could be.

But I think I lost this debate.

I originally came into it thinking that the tribulation lasted from Jerusalem's destruction until the end of the Times of the Gentiles. I've now come to believe that it was a period of time in the past during which the first disciples of Jesus fled Judea after a persecution broke out against them. These disciples fled to the seven churches in Asia Minor. These were the recipients of the letters and were reminded of their duty to preach the be faithful to Jesus and teach others to obey all that Jesus taught them. These two groups can be summed up in chapter 7 as the 144,000 of the twelve tribes of Israel who were predestined to be an elect remnant that would be called out of their Jewish Nation to bring the Gospel of the kingdom of God to the Gentiles, the great multitude dressed in clothes made white by the blood of Jesus.

The great tribulation, both by Romans and Jews, were to get the Gospel spread. When Jerusalem was judged, the city was destroyed. The promises of Abraham was taken from the Jewish Nation and given to the Gentiles. That was the meaning of the parable of talents. What little the Jews had was taken from them and given to the Roman Empire. Luke 21:20 shows that a period called the Times of the Gentiles was to occur. The parable of the wedding feast shows that this period would be a time to gather as many people as possible to the kingdom of God. In agreement with Romans 11:25-26, the parable says that when the Fullness of the Gentiles comes in, then the wedding will occur.

Between Jerusalem's destruction and the wedding feast, a kingdom (the beast) rises up and both persecutes the saints and attempts to divert their worship to something else by use of deception. I no longer believe that this period is the great tribulation. I no longer believe that the great tribulation is not a period of seven years or a period running the same time as the Times of the Gentiles. I believe it was a period before and during the war in Judea that caused the church to flee and bring the Gospel to the Gentiles. BUT I do believe the Jewish Nation have undergone and still undergo great tribulation. It's bad enough to suffer what the Romans did to them and be banished from their home for nearly 2,000 years. Then they had to undergo the Jewish Holocaust. Then they were given a land that they have to keep giving away to their neighbors. Something tells me that the curse of Deuteronomy 28:15-68 is still on the nation.

I believe that, when that tribulation is over, then we will see both the end of the Times of the Gentiles as well as the beginning of the wedding feast. Thanks for discussing this with me. Tossing this over in my mind throughout this discussion has led me to this stance. I appreciate the dialogue and want to let you know it really got me thinking and tested my theory well. Have a good day Mark.

 

[mark kennedy]

Throughout the debate, I've challenged the status quo on what many readily accept about things they can only wildly speculate about. I've challenged the tribulation is not a future seven year period and I think I've provided a strong argument against it as well as provided a suitable explanation of what it could be.

But I think I lost this debate.

Now I'm the status quo, never thought that could happen to me.

But seriously, like you I believe that the Christian faith is not a popularity contest but a matter of conviction. My approach to Christian Apologetics has long been to focus on the Bible as history; past, present and in the very near future. This is the last post in the thread where I will have to opportunity to address your premise that the Revelation is largely, if not exclusively, historically fulfilled in an attempt to refute what I believe to be in error. In addition I am searching for common ground by which we can agree on essential doctrine and join together to defend and proclaim our common faith. My prayer for you is that you will be enlightened (Ephesians 1:18) and know the dividing wall between Jew and Gentile has been broken down (Eph. 2:14), being rooted and grounded in the love of God (Eph. 3:18). My brother the debate is not won or lost by you are I. The victory of our faith is the unity of the Sprit (Eph. 4:18), submitting ourselves one to another in the fear of the Lord (Eph. 5:21), taking our stand against, 'rulers of the darkness of this world' (Eph. 6:12). Until the redemption of the purchase price (Eph. 1:14) and the glorious appearing of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ at the Parousia (Mat 24:3; 27, 37,39; I Cor. 16:17; 2 Thess. 2:8; James 5:8; Strong's G3952)

You like history so let's talk about some of the prophecy that has been fulfilled down through the years. God sent prophets to ancient kings demonstrating that the, 'Most High is sovereign' (Daniel 7:14), and rules in the affairs of men. Abraham (Genesis 12:14–17; 14: 8-12), Issac (Gen. 26:9), Joseph (Gen. 41) were both patriarchs of ancient Israel and prophets before ancient kings in their time. Throughout redemptive history God has sent prophets to rebuke kings and nations. All spoke of Christ coming to set up the Kingdom of God, destroying the kingdoms of the earth that are opposed to the rule of the Most High. Before the outpouring of the Vials of Wrath the angels sing redemptions song anew:

And I saw what looked like a sea of glass glowing with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and its image and over the number of its name. They held harps given them by God and sang the song of God’s servant Moses and of the Lamb:

“Great and marvelous are your deeds,
Lord God Almighty.
Just and true are your ways,
King of the nations.
Who will not fear you, Lord,
and bring glory to your name?
For you alone are holy.
All nations will come
and worship before you,
for your righteous acts have been revealed.”(Rev. 15:2-4)​

This hasn't happened you, I don't think there is much of an argument that it has because when it does every eye shall see him and the kings of the earth will mourn because of him.

I'm going to waive my final exposition and leave the position I have tried to defend as it is. My opponent should feel free to respond as he sees fit and then we can both post our closing thoughts. The debate has went on entirely too long, no doubt the longest running debate I have yet been involved in. I'm satisfied that we have covered the subject matter and regardless, I have simply run out of time for it. The fact is that from the opening of the first seal to the return of Christ is predictive prophecy that could not possibly been fulfilled historically and I think the Scriptures are quite clear on this matter.

Thanks Barraco for agreeing to the debate. It is my hope that you will continue to grow in grace and knowledge and seek these things out.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Barraco]

I think that it took me way too long to finally get this conversation.


I realize that you are under the impression that I believe that most of Revelation, including the Parousia, was fulfilled in the first century. I do not believe that.

I have gone through great length to explain the covenant history, starting with Abraham, and how it moved from the Old Covenant, the Times of the Jews, to the New Covenant, the Times of the Gentiles. And I have tried to show that Revelation does indeed address this transition. This transition is more important than many eschatologists have treated it. It was HUGE. Matthew's Gospel spent a lot of energy addressing the issue. Luke does as well. So does Paul, speaking of the acceptance of the Gentiles into God's promises to Abraham. Are we to assume that Revelation is absolutely mute on the topic?

So, as I have shown, the seven seals and six trumpets address the end of the Old Covenant. Revelation chapter 10 addresses the transition to the New Covenant among the Gentiles. And here is where we are disagreeing. It seems like you are under the impression that the Parousia is fulfilled in the seven seals. I am not under that impression. I don't think it happens until after the Two Witnesses, the Church, are resurrected at the end of the Times of the Gentiles.

Then chapters 12-14 repeat that entire dispensation over again, but addressed on the theme of persecution of the saints; first the elect and then the Gentile believers.

Chapters 15-18 address what happens to the persecutors; what happens at the end of the Times of the Gentiles. Therefore, the Parousia has not happened. Those times have not ended, and I believe I have stated that clearly.

The Parousia is mentioned in three places in the book of Revelation. 1) The seventh trumpet in Revelation 11. 2) The winepress in Revelation 14. 3) The coming of the King of kings in the clouds of heaven in Revelation 19.

Showing this, it can't be determined that I believe most of the prophecies were fulfilled in Revelation. The first theme shows that God, the Supreme Ruler of the universe, gave authority to His Son and the Son took the kingdom from the Jews and gave it to the Gentiles. The second theme shows that the Gentile believers would meet persecution until the Fullness of Gentiles comes through, when the everlasting Gospel is preached to all nations. The third theme shows Christ avenging His saints, culminating in Babylon's destruction and the destruction of those that make war against the saints.

I hope this better explains my position. It's been a pleasure discussing this with you Mark. Have a great week and God bless you.

Matt