Defining marriage

[eleos1954]

Hi there,

I have come across an unusual position on marriage.

The claim is that scripture doesn't prescribe that marriage begins with a ceremony but rather cohabitation between seriously committed partners.

On the face of it would seem to have scriptural support considering Adam and Eve, Isaac and Rebecca, Jacob and Leah and Rachel, Ruth and Boaz etc.

Now I have had to face the issue of how to handle new converts previously unmarried and living together in a committed relationship - we would simply take them to the registry office and sign papers if they did not want to separate long enough to organize a wedding.

But if the scripture does not seem to make reference to God requiring a marriage ceremony then our insistence on one might be unjust.

Your thoughts on this are appreciated, fornication then would be unfaithfully violating a committed relationship.

We know that Jesus attended the wedding a Canna but we don't know if the participants were already cohabiting.

I need to say that such a position of defining marriage in this way does not sit well with me at all but mounting a scriptural argument to refute such a claim would be very helpful.

We know that Jesus attended the wedding a Canna but we don't know if the participants were already cohabiting.

We know that Jesus attended the wedding a Canna but we don't know if the participants were already cohabiting.
[/QUOTE]

True ... but that does not refute the overall teaching on the matter of covenant marriage.

Genesis 2:24

Berean Study Bible
For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

Many many many times the covenant of marriage is used symbolically as being a pure covenant relationship .... including our relationship with the Lord .... and also on the flip side .... is considered ... fornication if the purity of that "marriage" is not intact. It's used as an example ALL OVER the bible.

2nd Corinthians 11

1I hope you will bear with a little of my foolishness, but you are already doing that. 2I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy.

For I promised you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.3I am afraid, however, that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may be led astray from your simple and pure devotion to Christ.

4For if someone comes and proclaims a Jesus other than the One we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit than the One you received, or a different gospel than the one you accepted, you put up with it way too easily.

The basis for this view is the fact that sexual intercourse between a husband and wife is the ultimate fulfillment of the “one flesh” principle (Genesis 2:24; Matthew 19:5; Ephesians 5:31). In this sense, sexual intercourse is the final “seal” on a marriage covenant.

Is a ceremony required? No.

It is sex between a man and a woman that consummates a marriage.

Marriage is to be a joyous occasion and most people choose to celebrate it with a ceremony ... back then .... and now.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Hi there,

I have come across an unusual position on marriage.

The claim is that scripture doesn't prescribe that marriage begins with a ceremony but rather cohabitation between seriously committed partners.

On the face of it would seem to have scriptural support considering Adam and Eve, Isaac and Rebecca, Jacob and Leah and Rachel, Ruth and Boaz etc.

Now I have had to face the issue of how to handle new converts previously unmarried and living together in a committed relationship - we would simply take them to the registry office and sign papers if they did not want to separate long enough to organize a wedding.

But if the scripture does not seem to make reference to God requiring a marriage ceremony then our insistence on one might be unjust.

Your thoughts on this are appreciated, fornication then would be unfaithfully violating a committed relationship.

We know that Jesus attended the wedding a Canna but we don't know if the participants were already cohabiting.

I need to say that such a position of defining marriage in this way does not sit well with me at all but mounting a scriptural argument to refute such a claim would be very helpful.

In historic Judaism, the marriage actually began with the engagement. The engagement was where the couple was considered legally married which lasted about a year although there was no cohabitation during that period.

Then the wedding itself occurred, with a large procession with the groom going and picking up the bride, then going from the bride's house to the groom's families home where they would be living together thereafter, and there was always a large dinner etc. there prior to actual sexual intercourse, at which time proof of the bride's virginity was provided and presented to the groom's family. (A white cloth then stained with blood from the breaking of her hymen during intercourse.)

In some instances, when the groom's family or home was too far away from the bride's family an actual more extravagant wedding dinner at the grooms home was not to be had, and all of that part was skipped for obvious reasons.

However, the engagement itself always served as the legal part of the marriage, well prior to the cohabitation during which time the groom was saving for the bride price etc (I forget what Jews call the bride price... sorry).

 

[Running2win]

We know that Jesus attended the wedding a Canna but we don't know if the participants were already cohabiting.

True ... but that does not refute the overall teaching on the matter of covenant marriage.

Genesis 2:24

Berean Study Bible
For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

Many many many times the covenant of marriage is used symbolically as being a pure covenant relationship .... including our relationship with the Lord .... and also on the flip side .... is considered ... fornication if the purity of that "marriage" is not intact. It's used as an example ALL OVER the bible.

2nd Corinthians 11

1I hope you will bear with a little of my foolishness, but you are already doing that. 2I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy.

For I promised you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.3I am afraid, however, that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may be led astray from your simple and pure devotion to Christ.

4For if someone comes and proclaims a Jesus other than the One we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit than the One you received, or a different gospel than the one you accepted, you put up with it way too easily.

The basis for this view is the fact that sexual intercourse between a husband and wife is the ultimate fulfillment of the “one flesh” principle (Genesis 2:24; Matthew 19:5; Ephesians 5:31). In this sense, sexual intercourse is the final “seal” on a marriage covenant.

Is a ceremony required? No.

It is sex between a man and a woman that consummates a marriage.

Marriage is to be a joyous occasion and most people choose to celebrate it with a ceremony ... back then .... and now.[/QUOTE]

They were not cohabing. This was not allowed back then. When society does nor recognize that marriage was ordained by God, we have what we have today in America: Tons of births out of wedlock, no fathers to teach right and wrong (cause anything goes) and discipline their "bratt" kids that usually become non productive citizens.

 

[Andrewn]

I feel that we're trying to rationalize our culture and adapt to it. The bottom line is that Christians should have the desire to have their marriage blessed by the Church and celebrated by family and friends as a good example to everyone. Without Jesus as head of the small church of the home, it is pointless to try to live in holiness or to bring up godly kids.

 

[Running2win]

I feel that we're trying to rationalize our culture and adapt to it. The bottom line is that Christians should have the desire to have their marriage blessed by the Church and celebrated by family and fiends as a good example to everyone. Without Jesus as head of the small church of the home, it is pointless to try to live in holiness or to bring up godly kids.

Bingo! You hit the nail on the head. We should be teaching the culture, not the culture teaching us their ways. This was Israels downfall.

If a Christian are truly born again and following Jesus, we would not even be having this discussion. If they don't like a stance on marriage of the local Church, there are plenty worldly Churches that will take them in.

 

[eleos1954]

True ... but that does not refute the overall teaching on the matter of covenant marriage.

Genesis 2:24

Berean Study Bible
For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

Many many many times the covenant of marriage is used symbolically as being a pure covenant relationship .... including our relationship with the Lord .... and also on the flip side .... is considered ... fornication if the purity of that "marriage" is not intact. It's used as an example ALL OVER the bible.

2nd Corinthians 11

1I hope you will bear with a little of my foolishness, but you are already doing that. 2I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy.

For I promised you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.3I am afraid, however, that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may be led astray from your simple and pure devotion to Christ.

4For if someone comes and proclaims a Jesus other than the One we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit than the One you received, or a different gospel than the one you accepted, you put up with it way too easily.

The basis for this view is the fact that sexual intercourse between a husband and wife is the ultimate fulfillment of the “one flesh” principle (Genesis 2:24; Matthew 19:5; Ephesians 5:31). In this sense, sexual intercourse is the final “seal” on a marriage covenant.

Is a ceremony required? No.

It is sex between a man and a woman that consummates a marriage.

Marriage is to be a joyous occasion and most people choose to celebrate it with a ceremony ... back then .... and now.

They were not cohabing. This was not allowed back then. When society does nor recognize that marriage was ordained by God, we have what we have today in America: Tons of births out of wedlock, no fathers to teach right and wrong (cause anything goes) and discipline their "bratt" kids that usually become non productive citizens.[/QUOTE]

They were not cohabing. This was not allowed back then. When society does nor recognize that marriage was ordained by God, we have what we have today in America: Tons of births out of wedlock, no fathers to teach right and wrong (cause anything goes) and discipline their "bratt" kids that usually become non productive citizens.

The question was .... was a marriage ceremony required .... and no a ceremony is not what consummated a marriage back then .... sex between the two does ... and still holds true (in the eyes of God) today. One man .... one woman.

Legalities surrounding marriage came later ... requiring "paper proof" ... but even then was a ceremony required? No

I would agree likely the two were not cohabiting .... however again the question was ... was a marriage ceremony required.

Show me one verse where it says a marriage ceremony is required.

Marriage ceremonies evolved from customs and became a tradition.

Custom -
a traditional and widely accepted way of behaving or doing something that is specific to a particular society, place, or time.

 

[Running2win]

They were not cohabing. This was not allowed back then. When society does nor recognize that marriage was ordained by God, we have what we have today in America: Tons of births out of wedlock, no fathers to teach right and wrong (cause anything goes) and discipline their "bratt" kids that usually become non productive citizens.

The question was .... was a marriage ceremony required .... and no a ceremony is not what consummated a marriage back then .... sex between the two does ... and still holds true (in the eyes of God) today. One man .... one woman.

Legalities surrounding marriage came later ... requiring "paper proof" ... but even then was a ceremony required? No

I would agree likely the two were not cohabiting .... however again the question was ... was a marriage ceremony required.

Show me one verse where it says a marriage ceremony is required.

Marriage ceremonies evolved from customs and became a tradition.

Custom -
a traditional and widely accepted way of behaving or doing something that is specific to a particular society, place, or time.[/QUOTE]

The Bible puts it stamp of approval on marriage tradition, and God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were the witnesses in the garden. God presented her to Adam. This was the start of the marriage ceremony as we know it- in a nutshell. So I disagree a marriage ceremony is not taught in the garden and should be a pattern to follow. And this was a special case because no one else was there! If you have to have a verse and chapter for every little thing, you are not judging as a spiritual man, and you are going against thousands of years of tradition throughout the world, and changing the concept of what marriage means. This is what the devil does. You don't want to be speaking for him, do you?
Has God said?

The Hebrews were supposed to only take a wife from their own people and not let the culture of the gentiles influence them. Not all tradition is bad, we learn about marriage from Israel. That marriage is a public event before sexual intercourse is shown in the garden.

Paul talked about all of this in 1st Cor and the recognized state of affairs even then was a public marriage ceremony. Cohab does not = marriage it = fornication. It's a given that people get married they have a public ceremony. Why is this so hard for you to understand? You are siding with the world system that has changed the definition of marriage to mean just living together and it can be with two men, two women, a man and a dog, sheep, or name the animal. Where does it stop? It stops with the Church and Gods people teaching morality again, not just doing whatever we want.


13But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

The claim is that scripture doesn't prescribe that marriage begins with a ceremony but rather cohabitation between seriously committed partners.

There are at least two problems/conditions with people trying to appropriate Old Testament marriage.

1) The marriage took place with the a) consent of the Father etc. b) the person had to pay a dowry to the father (later to the bride).


2) The marriage was considered permanent. A person who decided that they were tired of their wife, could find themselves hunted down by the bride's father and his relatives if they decided to dump her and trade up for a younger more attractive wife. At the very least if the wife was divorced she was given her dowry back so she was not left penniless.


Yes there was no religious component, but of course for early days the temple and tabernacle had not been instituted, marriage was considered a social institution. I think it is still fine to see it that way to some degree, but from a believing stand point there is plenty of reasons to treat it as sacramental etc. and those reasons go back to the Garden of Eden, forward into the New Testament and its revelation and theology.



PS - It's been my experience that many people who push this kind of idea are sort of trying to "have their cake and eat it too". Basically having the best of both worlds as far as NT and OT ethics. Being able to shack up but with out making serious up front commitments etc.

 

[eleos1954]

The question was .... was a marriage ceremony required .... and no a ceremony is not what consummated a marriage back then .... sex between the two does ... and still holds true (in the eyes of God) today. One man .... one woman.

Legalities surrounding marriage came later ... requiring "paper proof" ... but even then was a ceremony required? No

I would agree likely the two were not cohabiting .... however again the question was ... was a marriage ceremony required.

Show me one verse where it says a marriage ceremony is required.

Marriage ceremonies evolved from customs and became a tradition.

Custom -
a traditional and widely accepted way of behaving or doing something that is specific to a particular society, place, or time.

The Bible puts it stamp of approval on marriage tradition, and God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were the witnesses in the garden. God presented her to Adam. This was the start of the marriage ceremony as we know it- in a nutshell. So I disagree a marriage ceremony is not taught in the garden and should be a pattern to follow. And this was a special case because no one else was there! If you have to have a verse and chapter for every little thing, you are not judging as a spiritual man, and you are going against thousands of years of tradition throughout the world, and changing the concept of what marriage means. This is what the devil does. You don't want to be speaking for him, do you?
Has God said?

The Hebrews were supposed to only take a wife from their own people and not let the culture of the gentiles influence them. Not all tradition is bad, we learn about marriage from Israel. That marriage is a public event before sexual intercourse is shown in the garden.

Paul talked about all of this in 1st Cor and the recognized state of affairs even then was a public marriage ceremony. Cohab does not = marriage it = fornication. It's a given that people get married they have a public ceremony. Why is this so hard for you to understand? You are siding with the world system that has changed the definition of marriage to mean just living together and it can be with two men, two women, a man and a dog, sheep, or name the animal. Where does it stop? It stops with the Church and Gods people teaching morality again, not just doing whatever we want.


13But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.[/QUOTE]

Although lots of people are married in the Bible, there are no descriptions of any ceremonies. Adam and Eve are “married” simply by the fact that they are made for each other and they procreate. Jacob marries Leah by mistake, which happens not because of a disguised bride at a wedding ceremony, but because he consummates the marriage in the darkness of a tent. Jesus attends a wedding in Cana which consists of a family party, but no ceremony is described.

The only “ceremony” I can find in the Bible is Tobit 7:12-14 in which a father places the hand of his daughter in the hand of the husband, and then writes a contract.

The reason why there are no marriage ceremonies in the Bible is because marriage did not involve a ceremony. Marriage in the Bible simply consists of a man and woman, with the consent of the woman’s father or guardian, living together and attempting procreation.

No vows, no priest, no ritual, no prayer, no pronouncement, no license, no registration.

If you actually find something ... without using assumption ... let me know.

 

[Isilwen]

I don't know. When my girlfriend and I get married, we will likely go to the JOP. We were both married before, I still only had a JOP then and a small ceremony at my wife's small church. My girlfriend had a large wedding and all that went with it. Neither of us at our age wants that.

JOP is enough for us.

 

[Running2win]

I don't know. When my girlfriend and I get married, we will likely go to the JOP. We were both married before, I still only had a JOP then and a small ceremony at my wife's small church. My girlfriend had a large wedding and all that went with it. Neither of us at our age wants that.

JOP is enough for us.

Thanks for making my point.

 

[Isilwen]

Thanks for making my point.

What point is there having a huge ceremony? This is our second marriage. I'm 45 years old and she's 40 years old. There is no real reason for even a small ceremony.

In our situation, a JOP gets us married.

Maybe I am just slow today and missing the point of this thread...

 

[Endeavourer]

Although there are descriptions of wedding feasts in the NT, it is a stretch to say those examples are proscriptive and use them to "should" other believers into following that pattern. It was likely that poor people were not able to put on such events for their marriages. The Bible is silent about the accouterments that are required as part of the ceremony.

I'm highly averse to Biblical-izing cultural practices into "shoulds" for believers. Sadly, the church body today has many cultural "shoulds" that overstep Biblical requirements. Today, worship organizations discipline people for these cultural "shoulds" which are merely vain doctrines of men.

Certainly marriage licenses are not required in the Bible since that is a modern invention. In the US, marriage licenses were initially required only if a black and a white person were to marry. White-white or black-black marriages did not require licenses. In the US, marriage licenses are a relic of racial bigotry in the past that eventually grew into a revenue generating fee event for all marriages.

To my convictions, representing yourself publicly as married and becoming one flesh suffices in the eyes of God as a marriage (with or without the wedding and/or feast). That is the minimum standard observed in the Bible and my convictions do not allow me to "should" someone beyond what the Bible affirmatively prescribes.

Personally, I would recommend to my daughters that they do officialize their marriage with a license due to protections the law offers in the event their husband proves to be incapable of participating in the marriage.

 

[com7fy8]

Personally, I would recommend to my daughters that they do officialize their marriage with a license due to protections the law offers in the event their husband proves to be incapable of participating in the marriage.

To me, it seems that a number of church pronounced marriages have put people with very wrong people, and the one pronouncing those marriages apparently did not take responsibility to make sure with God about if the ones they pronounced belonged together in marriage.

So, I guess there are people who believe you can not make sure with God and be guided by God so you get with the right person. And it looks like pronouncers, graduates of seminaries, also do not believe you can trust God to personally guide you in your relating and who you trust and how He has you trust a person or not.

But the Bible does say Jesus sheep hear His voice > John 10:1-30.

I would think hearing Jesus' voice and obeying how He guides you about marriage would be much more critical than if you have a ceremony and when to have sex.

After all > sex is not love; sex is not true intimacy. But how we are with God in our hearts has so much to do with if we are capable of intimacy of God's love, versus human stuff.

The claim is that scripture doesn't prescribe that marriage begins with a ceremony but rather cohabitation between seriously committed partners.

On the face of it would seem to have scriptural support considering Adam and Eve, Isaac and Rebecca, Jacob and Leah and Rachel, Ruth and Boaz etc.

But God's word does give plenty about how to invest in learning how to relate in love, so this is how we relate in marriage. For example > already we can prepare for marriage by investing in >

"Do all things without complaining and disputing," (in Philippians 2:13-16)

Becoming strong in love so we do not give in to arguing and complaining > this is a basic investment for Christian marriage, I would say. Plus > relating as family with all our Christian brothers and sisters, so we are deeply intimate with various other Jesus people >

"Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:31-32)

Learn to love as family, then, first, before getting greatly interested in some one person for marriage. But it seems there are plenty of wrong people who can appear to love, like this. So, it is important to be able to tell the difference, as is possible with God.

Now I have had to face the issue of how to handle new converts previously unmarried and living together in a committed relationship - we would simply take them to the registry office and sign papers if they did not want to separate long enough to organize a wedding.

I would say you can pray and find out how God has you relate with each couple. There is no one-size-fits-all factory line for marriages, I would say

My opinion is what really matters is they are ministered God's word for how to relate in love, and they need to feed on the examples of mature Christian couples and singles, so they can be sure to be with God and love as Jesus family and love any and all people. This loving needs to be the main ingredient.

And if they are family with Jesus and you, you can take care of things as family. Ceremonies and paperwork won't make them deeply real in God's love and His family way of caring and sharing.

One thing I maybe have seen to be a real problem is how couples isolate with each other, then they spring their relationship on others and dictate what everyone else has to do. I would not recommend isolation dating, then, or in-the-corner arrangements > our Apostle Paul said their preaching of Jesus was not done in a corner. So, I would consider this

Take the time to pray with God and get to know the sheep, so with God you can know what is good to do.

 

[Running2win]

To me, it seems that a number of church pronounced marriages have put people with very wrong people, and the one pronouncing those marriages apparently did not take responsibility to make sure with God about if the ones they pronounced belonged together in marriage.

So, I guess there are people who believe you can not make sure with God and be guided by God so you get with the right person. And it looks like pronouncers, graduates of seminaries, also do not believe you can trust God to personally guide you in your relating and who you trust and how He has you trust a person or not.

But the Bible does say Jesus sheep hear His voice > John 10:1-30.

I would think hearing Jesus' voice and obeying how He guides you about marriage would be much more critical than if you have a ceremony and when to have sex.

After all > sex is not love; sex is not true intimacy. But how we are with God in our hearts has so much to do with if we are capable of intimacy of God's love, versus human stuff.
But God's word does give plenty about how to invest in learning how to relate in love, so this is how we relate in marriage. For example > already we can prepare for marriage by investing in >

"Do all things without complaining and disputing," (in Philippians 2:13-16)

Becoming strong in love so we do not give in to arguing and complaining > this is a basic investment for Christian marriage, I would say. Plus > relating as family with all our Christian brothers and sisters, so we are deeply intimate with various other Jesus people >

"Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:31-32)

Learn to love as family, then, first, before getting greatly interested in some one person for marriage. But it seems there are plenty of wrong people who can appear to love, like this. So, it is important to be able to tell the difference, as is possible with God.

I would say you can pray and find out how God has you relate with each couple. There is no one-size-fits-all factory line for marriages, I would say

My opinion is what really matters is they are ministered God's word for how to relate in love, and they need to feed on the examples of mature Christian couples and singles, so they can be sure to be with God and love as Jesus family and love any and all people. This loving needs to be the main ingredient.

And if they are family with Jesus and you, you can take care of things as family. Ceremonies and paperwork won't make them deeply real in God's love and His family way of caring and sharing.

One thing I maybe have seen to be a real problem is how couples isolate with each other, then they spring their relationship on others and dictate what everyone else has to do. I would not recommend isolation dating, then, or in-the-corner arrangements > our Apostle Paul said their preaching of Jesus was not done in a corner. So, I would consider this

Take the time to pray with God and get to know the sheep, so with God you can know what is good to do.

Whoa! Sex is not true intimacy? How much closer can you get? What do you think the becoming one means? And do you of any woman who does not want to have a public ceremony, that wants to wear a dress and feel special?

This is not some obscure doctrine. Just going to the JP, is not what is being described here. This is John teaching us from well known facts of how a Jewish wedding was carried out and applying it to Church as the Bride, and Christ the groom and how beautiful the new Jerusalem is. We cannot miss this.

Sure we are not Jewish and every little thing is not the same, but the basics are: Dating & betrothal =engagement, waiting until wedding day, ceremony, feast or at least a get together with family, setting up our house together.

It may not say, "Thus saith the Lord!" (in the old KJV), but marriage is taught and the ceremony is a picture of Jesus coming back for us at the resurrection and taking us to His Fathers house as a pure chaste beautiful bride where Jesus adds onto the house so we as the bride can live there. Here's a song that talks about what we should all know.

Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”

7“Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.” 8It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

9Then he said to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.’” And he said to me, “These are true words of God.” 10Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

2All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything. 13Food is for the stomach and the stomach is for food, but God will do away with both of them. Yet the body is not for immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord is for the body. 14Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through His power. 15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be! 16Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, “THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH.” 17But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. 19Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? 20For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.

 

[com7fy8]

Sex is not true intimacy? How much closer can you get?

Physically, I would say, it is as close as you can get, yes. But I am talking about how spiritually we can be more intimate, in God's love, than only physically.

God's word says,

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

So, I would say being "one spirit with" Jesus is true intimacy deeper and better (Psalm 63:3, Romans 5:5) in His love, than only physical intimacy by itself can be. And if a couple is one with Jesus, their intimacy is deeper and more intimate . . . in God's love . . . than only being one flesh. This is what I meant.

 

[eleos1954]

Physically, I would say, it is as close as you can get, yes. But I am talking about how spiritually we can be more intimate, in God's love, than only physically.

God's word says,

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

So, I would say being "one spirit with" Jesus is true intimacy deeper and better (Psalm 63:3, Romans 5:5) in His love, than only physical intimacy by itself can be. And if a couple is one with Jesus, their intimacy is deeper and more intimate . . . in God's love . . . than only being one flesh. This is what I meant.

Agree.

Marriage is a covenant relationship is to be honored in the highest degree. Our relationship with the Lord is a covenant relationship to be honored in the highest degree. This is why marriage is to be held in the highest degree according to the Lord and is why marriage is used so frequently within His Word. It is a covenant based on love. This kind of love is total dedication and commitment to the relationship.

Mark 10:8-9
And the two shall become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”

Our God is a covenant God and never breaks them ... and we should be faithful to follow and do the same ... keeping covenant with Him based on love ... with total commitment and dedication to the relationship.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I'm curious, did you ask if you could do this with these couples or was there an ultimatum?

Simple - We found those drawn to Jesus and who start reading the bible come under the conviction of the Holy Spirit and want to be obedient and do the 'right thing'. Realising they need to be married they feel they have a choice to seperate or formalise their commitment to each other. Some choose the latter and we took them to the registry office to formalise their commitment legally, they would then plan a church wedding. Some chose to separate until they could marry. We presented support and they chose. Our role was evangelism and at this early stage they had no church.

 

[Carl Emerson]

OK tremendous responses - thank you.

I acknowledge a point made by Dave L... The woman at the well had 5 husbands but the one she was currently co-habiting with was not her husband.

Jesus was indicating that she was not married to the man she was currently living with.

If then commitment + Sex = marriage, Jesus would be wrong - he would be a husband.

It seems also, the marriage of Leah had neither commitment nor love but she was seen as a wife. This would mean the giving of the daughter by the father constituted the marriage. This suggests those who mount a case for commitment being an essential condition element are in error. In this case the distinction between fornication and marriage is the giving, leaving and cleaving.

I think that we have forgotten that it is God that does the joining in a Christian marriage.
The previous two posts have drawn our attention to this.
The world experiences one flesh, but on a different level, those He draws together as believers experience being united in Spirit.

 

[Isilwen]

Simple - We found those drawn to Jesus and who start reading the bible come under the conviction of the Holy Spirit and want to be obedient and do the 'right thing'. Realising they need to be married they feel they have a choice to seperate or formalise their commitment to each other. Some choose the latter and we took them to the registry office to formalise their commitment legally, they would then plan a church wedding. Some chose to separate until they could marry. We presented support and they chose. Our role was evangelism and at this early stage they had no church.

What would your church do if there was opposition from a couple?