Define Reasonable Suspicion

[NotreDame]

For all of those screaming "racial profiling" in this thread, can you please tell me how exactly you know racial profiling will occur in regards to enforcement of this AZ immigration statute?

For all of those asking for the legal definition of reasonable suspicion, Karate Cowboy providing a pretty good meaning. Furthermore, this is a legal term of art which has been in existence for over 40 years and litigated in state and federal appellate courts. Consequently, we are not discussing an entirely blank slate here.

Furthermore, law enforcement officers typically receive legal training as to the meaning of reasonable suspicion and probable cause and are provided some cases where both were said to exist and where both were said to be lacking. Law enforcement has a pretty good general understanding of what would constitute as reasonable suspicion, or in the alternative their belief would be a reasonable one if not understandable one.

This focus upon reasonable suspicion is not a very good approach to impugning this statute.

 

[Nathan Poe]

For all of those screaming "racial profiling" in this thread, can you please tell me how exactly you know racial profiling will occur in regards to enforcement of this AZ immigration statute?

Let's try a little exercise in reasonable suspicion. Pretend you're an AZ police officer -- Spot the illegal alien, and explain your answer:

A:

B:

C:

For all of those asking for the legal definition of reasonable suspicion, Karate Cowboy providing a pretty good meaning. Furthermore, this is a legal term of art which has been in existence for over 40 years and litigated in state and federal appellate courts. Consequently, we are not discussing an entirely blank slate here.
Furthermore, law enforcement officers typically receive legal training as to the meaning of reasonable suspicion and probable cause and are provided some cases where both were said to exist and where both were said to be lacking.

So, every officer who ever abused his authority did so out of ignorance of the law?

Law enforcement has a pretty good general understanding of what would constitute as reasonable suspicion, or in the alternative their belief would be a reasonable one if not understandable one.

So, it's reasonable because they believe it?

 

[KarateCowboy]

Assuming all three are aliens:

Super Man never went through customs. However he was adopted so he is legal I think.The GQ looking dude is scratching his head as if he just woke up after a long night of drinking and somehow found himself on the wrong side of the border. Plus, he looks wealthy so he probably has a mansion to return to and will go back. Does that make him illegal? I suppose so. Granted, being wealthy he probably has a tourist VISA so he's not illegal. Since you suggest that one has to be here illegal, that gives us no choice but the first person, about whom very little can be deciphered.

 

[HerbieHeadley]

Define Reasonable Suspicion

No cape needed...

 

[KarateCowboy]

BTW why is OK to racially profile in universities saying "you have dark skin so it's more likely your trip to get here was more difficult" but not in immigration saying "you have dark skin and speak Spanish so you're more likely not to be from here"?

BTW who is the illegal alien? A or B?


A

B

If you said A, you must be a RACIST

 

[Nathan Poe]

Assuming all three are aliens:

Super Man never went through customs. However he was adopted so he is legal I think.

Actually, no. Nice try, though.

The GQ looking dude is scratching his head as if he just woke up after a long night of drinking and somehow found himself on the wrong side of the border. Plus, he looks wealthy so he probably has a mansion to return to and will go back. Does that make him illegal? I suppose so. Granted, being wealthy he probably has a tourist VISA so he's not illegal.

Tourist VISAs are only temporary, you know.

Since you suggest that one has to be here illegal, that gives us no choice but the first person, about whom very little can be deciphered.

So, process of elimination, then?

 

[BoltNut]

Can anyone deny that there is a severe problem in this country with Illegal Immigration? Can it also be denied that this problem cannot continue unabated without some serious economic issues resulting from it?

I'm hearing a lot of talk about how folks don't want to use things such as "racial profiling" but offer absolutely nothing else to enable law enforcement to do their jobs. What are the alternatives you'd like to offer? We can beat this thing to death and never come to a consensus so, please, enlighten the rest of us. What would you suggest this country should do to get a handle on this problem?....

...or is it possible that you don't even see Illegal Immigration as a problem at all?

 

[Macx]

I'd suggest giving full citizenship to anyone who asks, epecially if they do so while using a bogus Social Security Number & working for wages below the minimum established by law. And of course if they had to tresspass, commit vandalism, destroy property or kill a rancher to get here, they should be given a free pass. Ranchers are just frail imperialists anyhow. We should also make special provisions for those that made their way across the border with cartel protection, as they probably had to carry a heavy bail of marijuana. Border patrol officers should be doubled, but forced to wear their own handcuffs during their shift. This should all be done at the tax payers expense, they are all dirty capitalists anyway.

 

[Nathan Poe]

I'd suggest giving full citizenship to anyone who asks, epecially if they do so while using a bogus Social Security Number & working for wages below the minimum established by law. And of course if they had to tresspass, commit vandalism, destroy property or kill a rancher to get here, they should be given a free pass. Ranchers are just frail imperialists anyhow. We should also make special provisions for those that made their way across the border with cartel protection, as they probably had to carry a heavy bail of marijuana. Border patrol officers should be doubled, but forced to wear their own handcuffs during their shift. This should all be done at the tax payers expense, they are all dirty capitalists anyway.

Rumors about Conservatives disconnecting with reality are greatly-- ok, slightly -- exaggerated.

 

[BoltNut]

I'd suggest giving full citizenship to anyone who asks, epecially if they do so while using a bogus Social Security Number & working for wages below the minimum established by law. And of course if they had to tresspass, commit vandalism, destroy property or kill a rancher to get here, they should be given a free pass. Ranchers are just frail imperialists anyhow. We should also make special provisions for those that made their way across the border with cartel protection, as they probably had to carry a heavy bail of marijuana. Border patrol officers should be doubled, but forced to wear their own handcuffs during their shift. This should all be done at the tax payers expense, they are all dirty capitalists anyway.

uh.....wait a minute..... I thought we were already doing these things.

 

[KarateCowboy]

Actually, no. Nice try, though.



Tourist VISAs are only temporary, you know.

This is true. And, IIRC most foreign interlopers come here on tourist or other VISAs and just overstay them. That's contrary to the common belief that they sneak across the border like sombrero-wearing ninjas or something.

So, process of elimination, then?

Yes. Process of elimination. But I'm not 100% sure about Superman's situation. Perhaps you know more about it than I do (not being snarky here).

 

[MattLangley]

If by saying that 100% on the Mexican border are Mexicans coming over the border and by chance asking some legal resident to be uncomfortable, by asking for papers, for the safety sake of the whole,so be it! Quit acting like it ain't a reasonable perception! Just like Jihad ain't a Syrian perception. Be realistic...I'm a realist! The only reason i can see that someone might be upset if their in the wrong or doing wrong!

Or if hundreds, thousands, or tens of thousands of citizens are inconvenienced because of their race.

I know if this were meant to target Caucasian illegal aliens I would be a little more than concerned that it might turn into racial profiling against me. Sure it hasn't yet, but everyone has a right to express their disagreement with legislation, God knows that the conservatives flexed that right beyond belief about Health Care and any possible way to demonize Obama. At least these people are concerned about actualities, racial profiling is a real concern, if it wasn't then the governor wouldn't be requiring the police officers to undergo training to attempt to insure it doesn't happen (while many of the sensationalized Health Care complaints were often about non-existant aspects of the health, or broad sweeping arguments against socialism, etc).

We'll see.

The idea behind this make sense, I don't think anyone would argue against foolproof legislation to empower law officials to crack down on illegal immigration.

On the other hand I don't see this as the most important aspect of illegal immigration. Figuring out ways to allow people to become effective tax paying citizens rather than spending more money on kicking them out seems like a smarter strategy (and seems like what the US was founded on in the first place, and conservatives like to claim we're moving away from our founding principals, this being one they are pushing us away from). It also looks like a problem waiting to happen, a lawsuit waiting to happen. Police are people and people aren't perfect. There are indeed racist and corrupt police and this just seems like making that incident that much easier to happen, which will eventually lead to many lawsuits and wasted money and time on all fronts.

With that said, this is a democracy and the people who passed this are using their power appropriately. Election time will dictate the peoples will in this (either way).

 

[tulc]

Yes. Process of elimination. But I'm not 100% sure about Superman's situation. Perhaps you know more about it than I do (not being snarky here).

hmmmm Superman was a grownup in 1938 (the first year, I believe, of European quotas) So he would have come here long before Caucasians had to do anything except show-up. So I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be considered an illegal immigrant. On another note ever seen this?
scans_daily | When Hitman met Superman
scroll down to page 15 and read what Hitman says about Superman.
tulc(thought it was cool)

 

[Nathan Poe]

Yes. Process of elimination. But I'm not 100% sure about Superman's situation. Perhaps you know more about it than I do (not being snarky here).

Normally, Superman would indeed be an illegal alien, but given that he is, in fact, a fictional character, I don't think "reasonable suspicion" applies.

The correct answer was C., and you were so close to the right reasoning on it: Our GQ looking fella there did come over from New Zealand on a work Visa, which expired four days before the photo shoot, making him the illegal alien.

 

[NotreDame]

Let's try a little exercise in reasonable suspicion. Pretend you're an AZ police officer -- Spot the illegal alien, and explain your answer:

A:

B:

C:

So, every officer who ever abused his authority did so out of ignorance of the law?



So, it's reasonable because they believe it?

Let's try a little exercise in reasonable suspicion. Pretend you're an AZ police officer -- Spot the illegal alien, and explain your answer:

I cannot formulate reasonable suspicion any one of them is an illegal alien on the basis of their outward appearance. Furthermore, reasonable suspicion is rarely, if ever, going to be soley and exclusively predicated upon the outward appearance of a subject.

So, every officer who ever abused his authority did so out of ignorance of the law?

There are other equally plausible conclusions to be drawn.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Furthermore, reasonable suspicion is rarely, if ever, going to be soley and exclusively predicated upon the outward appearance of a subject.

You seem pretty sure of that -- on what, if anything, are you basing that opinion?

 

[NotreDame]

You seem pretty sure of that -- on what, if anything, are you basing that opinion?

The fact I am a lawyer, a criminal lawyer, in point of fact a prosecuting attorney, intimately familiar with the legal meaning of reasonable suspicion and the myriad of cases interpreting the phrase.

 

[Nathan Poe]

The fact I am a lawyer, a criminal lawyer, in point of fact a prosecuting attorney, intimately familiar with the legal meaning of reasonable suspicion and the myriad of cases interpreting the phrase.

Assuming for the moment that you're not yanking our collective chains on that one: What are you basing your opinion that "reasonable suspicion" isn't going to turn into racial profiling when applied to enforcing the AZ law?

 

[MacFall]

In practice: whatever the officer's opinion defines as "reasonable suspicion" is "reasonable suspicion".

 

[Macx]

In practice: whatever the officer's opinion defines as "reasonable suspicion" is "reasonable suspicion".

Provided it stands up in court. Playing too loosey goosey with reasonable suspicion can be career ending. Cops know this & that is a good thing. From the cops point of view . .. suspicion now in the moment seems reasonable, but if it becomes an issue at trial, a jury has hours or even days to armchair quarterback the call. You won't hear me standing up for cops very often, but this is an area where cops tend to err on the side of caution.