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Not if entity is infinite. The acts don't define the one doing it. Basically you're claiming that in infinite being would be unable to do finite things.
Not if entity is infinite.
The acts don't define the one doing it.
Basically you're claiming that in infinite being would be unable to do finite things.
Not if entity is infinite. The acts don't define the one doing it. Basically you're claiming that in infinite being would be unable to do finite things.
I've always taken the whole "god is timeless" as a post hoc argument to avoid considering that god started at some point (this creates the need for an explanation of how he began and subsequently eliminates any useful explanatory power for god creating the universe) and that quite possibly he has or will end at some point (which defeats the whole purpose of an afterlife, admits the possibility that he's no longer relevant).
I mean just imagine for a moment that the christian god wasn't eternal.... this really would throw a wet blanket upon the whole religion wouldn't it? They could still claim to know how the universe began...but would be unable to explain how their god began. If god were already dead or will eventually die...then he would be unable to keep his promises of eternal life for everyone... that wouldn't jibe too well, would it?
No, I don't think it would necessarily throw a wet blanket on the whole religion. Explaining how God began (if He did) might be an interesting philosophical or scientific question, but not a question Christianity needs to answer. It's enough that God is timeless compared to the dimensions we exist in, relatively speaking.
There could be higher realities of time that we can't readily perceive, and in view of that, I'm starting work on my new theory. You've heard of "dark matter" and "dark energy"? I'm going to theorize "dark time". (Soon as I find my pencil.)
Why do you think you can wholly grasp eternity from our finitude? We only have a glimpse.
Furthermore, to say "God acts" in the universe does not necessarily bound him to time. It becomes paradoxical, yes, but not contradictory.
I honestly don't see an issue between an eternal being acting in and out of time.
Well, the issue is two-fold the way I see it. You believe god does interact with our universe...wonderful.
Let's picture that act as a starting point in a moment in time. We could then say that there was a moment that preceded it...and describe it by whatever god did at that moment (whether or not it was an interaction with our universe). We could then say in relation to that moment, there was another moment which preceded it...and describe by whatever god did in that moment. If we follow this chain backwards... we arrive at one of two conclusions.
1. We eventually reach the first thing that god did...implying that this is when god (much like our universe) began. That is, unless you imagine god as this thing which exists infinitely backwards in time without thinking or doing anything...kind of like a god statue.
2. We continue to go backwards through this chain infinitely.... which carries with it two problems of its own. The first would be, "If this chain of actions continues backwards infinitely....how did we ever reach our starting point?" (That interaction that god had with the universe at the beginning of the example). The second problem is really more theological than mathematical or physical. If our creation and entire existence and ultimate destruction (in the christian view) is merely a tiny blip in a relative infinity of god actions... of what real significance/importance are we to him? Clearly whatever else god does with all his infinite time...it has nothing to do with mankind's existence. He does far more things and spends far more time without us at all. Discussion of things like god's love for man, the importance of salvation, his tremendous sacrifice....they all lose a lot of significance when you consider mankind's destiny takes up less than one second of his year (metaphorically).
1. God, in eternity, could have been inactive - like a statue - or He could have been doing whatever He wanted without beginning or end.
2. (a) We reached our starting point when God, from eternity, caused the universe to begin to exist. This would be our starting point and all notion of space/time, but would be a tangent from eternity. (b) God's expression of infinite love for us occurred on the cross.
Well...it would throw a wet blanket on the explanatory power of god. If god had a beginning... then he necessarily had a creator (according to the logic of apologists who posit that all things with beginnings necessarily have a creator).
If he was "born" or evolved into godhood, then it's not at all unreasonable to speculate on his death...a literal one, not figurative. I'm sure you can see how that would cause problems for any religion.
And according to the apologists who posit materialism, He need not have a creator.
We see in our universe that energy/matter can't be created or destroyed, but merely changes forms. My body and yours will be dust someday, but maybe it's possible in God's realm that, once coming into being, "stuff" doesn't change form, so He doesn't age and die?
2. A. Go ahead and count backwards from infinity to zero (we'll call zero the starting point when god created the universe)...are you starting to see the problem? If "infinite" moments preceded the creation of the universe...how do we reach the point where god creates the universe?
If he need not have a creator...why would the universe?
"Once coming into being, stuff doesn't change form."
I can't really imagine a process of coming into being where something doesn't change form....can you?
Part of the problem with this thread discussion is lack of knowledge.
For instance, how do 'we' know the Universe had a beginning and will have an end?
What requires a 'cause'?
The older I get, the more I realize willful ignorance is a universal defense against learning.
Listening to the answers provided by people with some knowledge is a way to gain knowledge.Syd the Human said:Isn't asking questions and debating one of the best ways to gain knowledge?
Listening to the answers provided by people with some knowledge is a way to gain knowledge.
Asking a question then ignoring the answer if said answer doesn't flatter the questioner's ego is the best way to remain ignorant while presenting a facade of learning. Please, don't concern yourself about what I say.
I'm not exactly sure what it would mean to exist outside of time. The Bible says that God is eternal. He is without beginning or end. He does not change.
If God is eternal, then he can't be outside of time.
Eternity is a measurement of time. If God is defined as eternal (a measurement of time), then he must by definition be within time.
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