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Defending a religious person...

Discussion in 'Ethics & Morality' started by Hestha, Jan 30, 2013.

  1. variant

    variant Happy Cat

    +4,127
    Agnostic
    Single
    Probably outside of a standard deviation.

    Clearly.

    Personal experience, tells me the belief is common.

    I will admit not universal.

    No one said my experience was your fault outside of my experience with you (which is not clearly your fault either).

    If I am overly harsh to Christians it is because I react to those things in Christianity which are overtly hurtful towards me and thinking within the group that I see as harmful to me or others.

    While I do not think I have it in me to believe in such things I am often told what a terrible person I am for not doing so.

    I consider it unfair, but common among the religious.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2013
  2. FrenchyBearpaw

    FrenchyBearpaw Take time for granite.

    +64
    Atheist
    Married
    Does anybody know what happens to someone who doesn't have a relationship with Jesus?
     
  3. seeking Christ

    seeking Christ Guest

    +0
    ^_^ Doesn't quite have the same ring to it, does it?

    Which belief are you referring to, what I stated that the early Church didn't go around saying 'turn or burn'? I can hope you're saying you've encountered my take on this frequently.

    Well ok then. Maybe there was a purpose for me to suffer through all this? This is at least a statement of position I can understand. I have taken the stance of trying to improve the system from the inside. My Sister does that with politics which I'm not involved in, while she doesn't really tackle Church-type issues.

    These things are HORRIBLE! None of this has anything at all to do with the Gospel! And on top of that YICK.

    If you might be able to listen for a moment, realize that these perhaps well-meaning people never realized that Jesus' words to this effect were spoken in an environment where literally EVERYONE believed in basics like the existence of God and the coming Messiah. This was a VERY specific culture, and His usage of terms like "believe" (especially in reference to condemnation) was pointed directly at those who had every reason to KNOW He was Messiah, yet refused to acknowledge Him.

    Now I ask you, does this in any way describe you?

    My opinion, not that its worth much on the subject, is no it does not, not a chance.
     
  4. seeking Christ

    seeking Christ Guest

    +0
    Fair question! I try not to know but joking aside, I think the only valid answer anyone can give is their own personal testimony of what life was like for them w/o Jesus, which of course can only be done via contrast; their own BC / AD timeline.

    I realize you don't take much stock in such things.
     
  5. variant

    variant Happy Cat

    +4,127
    Agnostic
    Single
    Not quite poetic but it has the upside of having a very specific meaning.

    No, infrequently. Condemnation is usual in my experience, not a claim of ignorance on the specifics of this subject.

    That is, if I understand your take.

    Admirable I suppose.

    I may suggest some tactical discussion differences when speaking with unbelievers though.

    I really was taking offense at what I saw to be dodging a question and semantical issues.

    I am sensitive to people telling me I have faith when I spent a good part of my life trying and utterly failing for that to be true. I am very sensitive to people who express the idea that they have had direct revelations and I just wouldn't understand.

    I suppose I would have had to tell you more for you to get that though.

    Well thanks I suppose. I have always had a hard time imagining a being grand enough to create a universe that wouldn't like me much because I don't think it exists.

    If that makes sense.
     
  6. Eyes wide Open

    Eyes wide Open Love and peace is the ONLY foundation-to build....

    943
    +120

    You run the risk of creating in a disconnected state. Meaning that this relationship is based on your ability to create with love, compassion, non-judgement and forgiveness.
    These aspects are spiritual, meaning they are connective mechanisms, binding aspects to life, relationship, society. the planet and yes God. God as the ‘creator', created a framework for me, you, us, to ‘create’ and sent messengers etc to show the way. The life of Jesus would be relevant to interject at this point.
    An absence of those connective mechanisms brings about a breakdown in relationship causing dysfunction and destruction, both internally within the self and externally as the collective objective standard, a hell of sorts. The forward evolutionary plane when these connective mechanisms are embraced by the masses is a ‘kingdom of heaven’ as the objective standard externally, and when embraced by the individual a ‘kingdom of heaven’ is experienced within. The internal would be a resonance to your being, a knowing that you are guided, loved, supported, cherished and forgiven and that the only ‘obstruction’ (Satan) in this process of ‘knowing resonance’ is the created diss-connective attributes that are in your reality as created within your mind, formed from your geographic birth location and upbringing. Transcendental meditation can move you to an area beyond thought so you can see that you and I were born with a blank creative canvas of pure potential. Prayer (to judge the self) would be an observation of your SELF in a world of selves and how they interact, meaning that selfish ideals are a diss-connective mechanism and this internal ‘knowing resonance’ will not present itself, meaning that God will not manifest itself in your reality, although in my own experience once I experienced a ‘shift’ in my being this has been an ebb and flow process based on my ability to be guided. After death, who knows, I hold no concepts of heaven and hell other than what I have experienced thus far and ‘see’ that life in one sense (now) is fully understandable, and that any more than that is a mystery. I’ll await a Christian to correct me, but to save them the bother I rejected my Catholic upbringing as a 12 year old as I could see an absence of those connective mechanism’s that were talked about and could see these people had no relationship with Jesus. I also see now that this is just a product of poor understanding of our ‘reality’ as it is now, and how that they themselves were just the product of the ‘created standard’ of the time. All IMHO by the way.
     
  7. Lee M

    Lee M Well-Known Member

    +7
    Deist
    Single
    well... yeh... Jesus told us pretty clearly what happens in Matthew 13, Luke 13 etc Not sure why he just acts like he's such an expert on the bible, that everyone else is wrong about the bible while also maintaining that he isn't sure and can't just quote these same verses
     
  8. seeking Christ

    seeking Christ Guest

    +0
    Touche! ^_^ (It's good to be able to laugh at myself)

    Well I was afraid you were saying that the majority of your contact with Christians has been of the 'turn or burn' variety. And I can refine my take away from sheer ignorance, but only a little. I know the path I took to God, and His own reception in the process. I know of His longing for that universally within our species. I can't know His specific will with any individual unless He specifically shows that to me, and that's just not how He usually does things. Instead, he wants me to be faithful, and yes that's a VERY loaded word that includes all sorts of things I often fall short of. Even more compound than faith or believe, which is perhaps the simplest of the 3.

    I bet! ^_^

    Honestly, can you not see how those semantical [sic] issues are substantive? Can you not see how attempting to 'nail down' anything on this topic is incredibly difficult to begin with? I mean even among Christians, it usually only works if we just came out of the same Church service. How much harder it is with an unbeliever! When I pointed out you've not seen the Kingdom of heaven I was making a valid point, not being a wiseacre.

    Ok so I set off a trigger, thank you for telling me that, but can you see I never said 'you have faith?' The difference between that and what I
    said is not at all evasive nor minor; its HUGE!

    And as a total aside, what if what God means by 'lighting every man that comes into the world,' which I hold to be at least roughly synonymous to 'give each man a measure of faith,' what if in HIS view, you received that light and bear it currently? And just to be clear, even an established entity like the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) says explicitly that this is possible. I mean I'm a mystic with the gift of faith, 2 things I never realized for most of my life and actually take for granted, but I'll tell you that the biggest factor in that was recognizing I had ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what Jesus meant when He said things like "those that believe in Me." (Him) I wasn't content with that and saw that whatever He meant by it, it obviously changed everything. I wanted it, and asked God for it. This was a long and arduous process, over decades; and it still continues, and obviously I am anything but perfect.

    But I never said 'you just wouldn't understand.' And if you're ever frustrated at the difficulty trying to communicate any of this verbally, you should try being ME! I do think that most anything God has revealed to me you actually COULD understand, but I hope you realize that if I were to use a word in a certain way you'd have to at least try to follow along, in order to be able to understand? And that by doing so you in no way consent to anything I say as being correct? Gathering info is distinct from processing it.

    We all come from a different 'place,' or point, spiritually speaking. Obviously you and I have different backgrounds with this, but I think everybody does. If you were to explore what I mean by the word "God," you would find that to be a huge and difficult topic, but you might find a lot of common ground with stuff you don't even question the existence of.
     
  9. seeking Christ

    seeking Christ Guest

    +0
    Because it's WRONG. You have failed to take into account who Jesus was addressing, nor have you ever done the right thing to compare that to the people here asking the question. Its not unforgivable but its WRONG.

    All the people there were God's own people, His chosen, all waiting for the Messiah. They had every reason to KNOW He was the Messiah; "believing in Him" meant something very specific to them, which is completely unrelated to the unbelievers here. To try to lump them into that same category is to do violence to Scripture.
     
  10. FrenchyBearpaw

    FrenchyBearpaw Take time for granite.

    +64
    Atheist
    Married
    So my personal testimony that nothing happens to me if I don't have a relationship with Jesus is just as valid as yours, then.
     
  11. Lee M

    Lee M Well-Known Member

    +7
    Deist
    Single
    Seeking

    hmmmph... oky doky... if you really believe that then fine, but I wasn't talking to you.
     
  12. FrenchyBearpaw

    FrenchyBearpaw Take time for granite.

    +64
    Atheist
    Married
    You're not fooling anyone, razer.
     
  13. seeking Christ

    seeking Christ Guest

    +0
    Your personal testimony is entirely valid yes, but you have no BC / AD to testify to so you have no testimony on that issue.
     
  14. FrenchyBearpaw

    FrenchyBearpaw Take time for granite.

    +64
    Atheist
    Married
    Sure I do.
     
  15. seeking Christ

    seeking Christ Guest

    +0
    So you're a BC / AD / AC type, are you? (Not that there's anything wrong with that ;)
     
  16. Verv

    Verv Senior Veteran

    +581
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    In Relationship
    US-Republican
    Most atheists know 'substantially more than your average theist?' ^_^

    That is why the majority of rubbish said by atheists on this forum was dismissed 1500 years ago by St. Augustine or a thousand years ago by Thomas Aquinas.

    If you do not accept the viewpoints of Augustine & Aquinas, or any number of other great philosophers, you are entirely free to do so but there really would be no reason for you devoting much time elsewhere. That is what is so funny about atheism as a 'movement.' It is the largest gathering of puffed up, arrogant youths since Communism.
     
  17. Catherineanne

    Catherineanne Well-Known Member

    +4,395
    United Kingdom
    Anglican
    Widowed
    They live their life, the same as anyone else; go to work, come home, spend time with their friends and family, have fun, go on holiday, whatever.

    What would you expect? A thunderbolt from heaven to strike them dead? That kind of thing really doesn't happen.
     
  18. Catherineanne

    Catherineanne Well-Known Member

    +4,395
    United Kingdom
    Anglican
    Widowed
    = 'atheists think we are stupid, but really they are puffed up and arrogant, because Augustine said so 1500 years ago.'

    Is that really how you think the Lord would want us to talk about those who happen not to have faith? Do you really think that those of us with faith have arrived, and those without are lost forever? Or is it not more the case that we are all on a journey of faith, and that some are further along that path than others?

    Why blame anyone for only being in Doncaster, when you are already half way to Newcastle? Is your faith to YOUR credit or God's? Did you deserve your salvation? As long as a person is still alive they are still on their journey, and that is all that matters. What they believe is, I think, far more often a reflection of what they see and dislike in believers. It does not always have anything whatever to do with God.

    If we want people to share our beliefs, then imo the first step is to show that our beliefs make a difference to the way we relate to other people. If we want them to know that God loves them, we have to love them first. And that means not calling people puffed up and arrogant, simply because of their beliefs.
     
  19. Catherineanne

    Catherineanne Well-Known Member

    +4,395
    United Kingdom
    Anglican
    Widowed
    Funnily enough, it looks unpalatable to me as well. :)

    The nearest analogy I can think of is a gang in a playground telling a new child that he can't play on the swings because he doesn't know the password, and he can't know the password because he is not in the gang. I have no time for that kind of game.

    Indeed so. Far too often it is not language that is inadequate, but the person attempting to hide behind it. I have no word that will describe certain aspects of God, but I certainly do have words to describe trying to find those words. I think as long as I am honest, an equally honest person who happens to have no faith would understand it.
     
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