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Deceiving and Being Deceived

Discussion in 'Covenant Theology' started by Studyman, Jul 18, 2020.

  1. EmethAlethia

    EmethAlethia Newbie

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    "No, you have made your position quite clear. I would add that the Law "Though shall not Kill" is mentioned only 5 times in the New Testament. Thou shall not Covet is only mentioned 2 times, the actual word only 4 times. The word "Sabbath" is mentioned 55 times in the New Testament.
    I'm not sure this argument is relevant given all three are apart of God's Commandments."

    It's only mentioned twice after acts ... are you saying that the Sabbath is a major Christian doctrine after this time?

    In the scriptures you posted "Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience"

    What is the example of disobedience Hebrews 4 talking about?

    Heb. 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

    Who is the "them" here? The O.T. Jews, that chose not to "believe/obey" since the two are equal in scripture.

    Please consider the previous chapter for God's answer to this question.

    Heb. 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. 16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

    So my friend, does this not tell us what "Example of Disobedience" we are not to follow? And what was their Sin? Shall we not go to these Examples to find out?

    Ez. 20:10 Wherefore I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt, and brought them into the wilderness. 11 And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them. 12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them. 13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.

    Their sin was disobeying the laws given at that time, including the Sabbaths. Shall we reinstitute the sacrificial system as well? Circumcision? Should we require that? it was a law ... even Moses broke it. Yes, the things the N.T. reinforces should be kept ... but there are only two, yes, two verses after acts that mention a Sabbath. And making a requirement of it? Are you going there? I feel that you are leaving the general meaning of the text to focus on a single issue that Paul is not focusing on here.

    Heb 3:10 "THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION, AND SAID, 'THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART, AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS'; 11 AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, 'THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.'" 12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.


    Which sin? Is he specific? Is only the Sabbath law included here? Everything else is ok?

    Do you believe these are the "Examples of Disobedience" we are told, in the verse you posted, NOT to follow? If not, then can you show me what Examples Heb. 4 is speaking to? Are you saying that God is commanding all Christians to obey all the Sabbath laws? That that is a requirement for salvation or something? Keep the Sabbath or go to hell?

    Also, what if I am born into a world with religions that don't listen to God? Like that isn't a given. ...

    Col. 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body "is" of Christ.

    The "is" was added by the translators. It wasn't in the original transcript, which read something like "Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body of Christ. The O.T. laws, the keeping of all these things is a shadow of the things to come AFTER those things ... i.e. the fullness of Christ and everything that is a part of that. Jesus was accused of eating too much, drinking too much, not keeping the Sabbaths ... yes, all of that is a shadow of what Christ brought.

    CLV says it this way "which are a shadow of those things which are impending - yet the body is the Christ's" Yes, when the O.T. laws were given they were but a shadow of what came with Christ.

    Consider that this was over 14 years since Jesus ascended. So there are still "shadows of things yet to come". Yes, when those things were given, when those things were enforced, they were but a shadow of the freedom we have in Christ. Ergo, we are no longer to be subject to them. "Col 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- "

    Are you in agreement with this, or are you saying we must still keep the Sabbath law?


    Then Paul said;

    18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

    So who is it we are to humble our self to here? Shall I let the Judgment of the religions of this world "beguile me of the Promise"?

    I am hoping we can have a honest, unbiased examination of Scriptures, for the edification of us both. And I look forward to your take and answer to the questions I posed.

    Thanks for your reply.[/QUOTE]
     
  2. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member

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    I'm not interested in modern mainstream religious doctrines or traditions. I am only interested in what God teaches. And I have the Oracles of God in my own home, so I can commune with the Word of God, just Him and I. I know religious men have been rejecting, despising and polluting God's Laws and Commandments for a long time. Not the Biblical examples of the faithful though. They submitting themselves to the Righteousness of God even in the face of death. You posted scripture and I was attempting to engage with you in an honest, unbiased examination of them.

    "where two or more are gathered".

    You represented yourself as being of this same mind, to my joy. Is this still the case?


    Yes, the "them" here is speaking to the Israelite's that God brought out of sin and deception of Egypt. They were given the Gospel of Christ, but didn't believe it, which God translated into "No Faith". As your and my Bible shows us.

    Deut. 32:18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

    19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.

    20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.



    Wow, that escalated quickly. Lets back up here a minute? You posted a scripture.

    Heb. 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

    I suggested it might be prudent to go back and look at these examples of "Unbelief" for ourselves, and not just take the mainstream religions of this worlds word for it, and I posted one of many Scriptures which clearly give us an "Example of unbelief" that we are not to follow.

    Where did I even imply that we should reject our Prophesied New High Priest "After the order of Melchizedek" and "reinstate" the Levitical Priesthood? Was this a sarcastic comment meant to insult, or are you really suggesting I want to "reinstate" an obsolete Priesthood that was temporary from it's creation?

    I was trying to enter into an honest, unbiased examination of the Scriptures you posted. I didn't inject God's Holy Sabbath, God placed it in the "Examples of Unbelief" that I am not to follow.

    As far as Paul is concerned, no one questioned the existence God's Holy Sabbath in his or Jesus time. There was some discussion surrounding the Mainstream religions traditions surrounding God's Sabbath, but pretty much everyone knew about God's Sabbath Commandment. Why would Paul spend time trying to turn people towards a Commandment of God they were already following?

    What Paul did fight the mainstream preachers of His Time with, was the New Priesthood "After the Order of Melchizedek" and not after the "Order of Aaron" (Levi).

    Since the Jews didn't believe Jesus was the Prophesied High Priest, they were still requiring the Levitical Priesthood Sacrificial "works of the Law" of atonement, spelled out in the Priesthood God ADDED because of Transgressions "Till the Seed should Come". A Priesthood HE gave specifically to the Tribe of Levi who HE separated from the other tribes of Israel.

    God's Sabbath was never in question in the New Testament, just as God's Commandment not to Covet, or Kill or steal. All these were also God's Commandments hardly mentioned at all by Paul. But you don't question these other barely mentioned commandments, only God's Holy Sabbath.

    Why is that?





    Wow, you are angry at me. Do you really believe from my posts that I think God's Holy Sabbath is His only Commandment? Why are you being so abrasive here? What have I done that would cause you to imply such a thing? I expect this from mainstream religious zealots, promoting their religious businesses.

    But I thought you were different.



    I am not saying anything here. I am posting God's Word and attempting to have an honest, unbiased examination of them in Love of the Brethren, because you represented yourself as someone interested in Biblical Truth as I am.

    Surely you know God has instructions for His People in this world. In the Examples that God had written for our admonition, did people believe God?

    "But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you."

    Some did. Caleb, Joshua, Gideon, Shadrack, Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, the Wise men etc. But "Many" were over thrown in the wilderness. Why??? What did they do that Caleb, Joshua and Zacharias didn't do? They believed God, YES?

    1 Cor. 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

    2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

    3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

    4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

    5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

    6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

    They rebelled against God's Laws, and despised God's Holy Sabbaths.

    Did Jesus do these things? Did Paul? Did any example of Faithful men in the Holy Scriptures flat our reject God's Words?

    Why would you believe that religious men today could follow the same example of no faith and unbelief, and be spared?

    Rom. 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith (Belief). Be not highminded, but fear:

    21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

    22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

    If I am born into a World where religious men cheat on their wives, would you agree that these religious men don't listen to God? If I was born into a world where religious men steal from widows and children, would you agree that I was born into a world where mainstream religions don't listen to God?

    Of course we would agree with this. But what if I'm born into a world where religious men reject and pollute God's Holy Sabbath? Same God, Same set of Laws.

    Who has convinced you to reject God's Word where His Sabbath is concerned, but not where adultery or stealing is concerned?

    What spirit caused Israel to rebel and despise any of God's commandments? What spirit would cause men today to rebel and despise any of God's Commandments?

    I ask these questions in the Spirit of Love. Please answer them honestly, And then look at what side of the answer you are on.

    Being honest with our self is the hardest part of repentance.




    These are your words. No offence, but I have come to trust only the Word's of the Christ of the Bible, and His Father, my God.

    Jesus said; "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    This is the same exact thing HE said before coming to Earth as a man. Do you agree with this?

    What if the religions of the land I was born into don't believe these Word's of the Christ, or His Father, just as the Mainstream religions of the world Jesus was born into? Shall I reject the Christ's Words and follow the religious doctrines and traditions of men? Like "many" did in the world Jesus was born into, and the Examples of unbelief did in the Law and Prophets, that we are told Not to follow?

    These are prudent questions, and relevant. Shall God's People not engage in such conversations?

    But this is over 14 years since Jesus ascended. These "Shadows" were of things yet to come. Many didn't come when Jesus came. God's People are still waiting, with patience, for the fulfillment of these things. This is why Paul said "Let us Keep the Feast".



    This is why Paul teaches not to let anyone judge the faithful in their loyalty and Faith in God. And not to let any man "beguile" us of our reward that awaits the Faithful, who DON'T FOLLOW the same examples of unbelief, as the mainstream religions of this world has done since before Moses.


     
  3. EmethAlethia

    EmethAlethia Newbie

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    I agree, religious men are possibly the greatest danger to truth. As far as which day we choose to worship God, historically the Christians had some disagreement on the day. Some, since Jesus was the first fruits of the dead and rose early on the first day of the week, picked Sunday. Others stayed with the Sabbath. You said that you cared little for the words of men. Neither do I. At best we give truth's mixed with lies for none of us has perfect beliefs or He would not need to continue to perfect us.

    I have no beef with you, and it only where we disagree that I have hopes of exchanging erroneous beliefs for truth. One of my favorite sayings is, "Your agreement with me might only make us both wrong." Differences of opinion are for me a mere starting point leading to more study. As for "Keeping the Sabbath." Or worshiping on Sunday, or Monday, or every day of the week ...

    Rom 14:5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.

    Do not take any of my dissent with your beliefs as a failure to care about getting to the truth. I too am interested in all of the passages on each and every topic with all of them cut straight. My beliefs are all open-handed beliefs (Kung-fu - Snatch the pebbles from my hand. LOL) My beliefs change with my understanding of the truth. The truth never changes.

    I, based on my understanding of scripture, see no way to make a claim that mankind should hold to a Friday dusk to Saturday dusk Sabbath as a "rule" or law. The passages that can be made to support such a claim are too few and the ones that seem to teach against being dogmatic are too prevalent. For some things each person must be fully convinced in his own mind." Ergo I have no problem with the belief that we must hold to a Friday night/Saturday night Sabbath ... for you. But to teach it as a commandment now is to elevate our precepts to the position of a doctrine of God. Something I do not believe you would do intentionally.

    Rest assured I still hold you in the highest regard, and I value the opportunity to learn as well as teaching, I enjoy being sharpened, and every examination of the scriptures to see what really is and isn't true is a joy to me. Just because I am convinced now doesn't mean that you will not alter my beliefs later on. It just means that we need to examine the scriptures more, with a goal to getting to the truth even if it requires the sacrifice of one of our children (Our beliefs) on the alter of truth. And yes, sometimes, even for the most dedicated of us, that is exactly how it feels. Yet, I keep my knife drawn and will plunge the knife into any belief that I honestly believe the scriptures contradict.

    Like I said, I believe we are "like-minded" but that we will always agree. It is on those points that I expect some of my beliefs will change. I am a Calvaminian myself. God loves and seeks all men, men respond, and God gives them the consequences for those choices. Rom. 1:18-32, 2Th 2:10-13 ... I do believe in the perseverance of the saints. "They went out from us for they were never of us." and that those who are His will see the reproof of God, and, if they are too great an embarrassment, they will be taken home. 1Co. 5 and

    1Co 11:29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

    What is important is not the beliefs we hold to right now, at least not for me, as I search the scriptures diligently for all the evidence that can be found on a topic seeking to cut-straight all of it so that when put together everything fits perfectly with everything else, with no meaning added, none subtracted, and nothing to distorted to force it to comply with any of my beliefs. Ergo, I get myself removed from churches for some unorthodox beliefs ... but I always seek to get all of the evidence they present and cut it ALL, their evidence, mine, everyone else's, and even the things few have found and looked at proving all things over and over again, always holding fast to what is good/true.

    If you want to claim I am a difficult student, I agree. But, if it's truth I seek to be persuaded by it.
     
  4. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member

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    In the Bible there is a Promise from God about a New Covenant. It's in Jer. 31. In this promise God said that we wouldn't need preachers, brothers, or "another voice" to teach us "After those days" because we shall all know Him.

    And here we are with HIS Oracles in our own homes, our own hands and in our own mind.

    But men don't really believe in the God of the Bible, and so they don't trust the Scriptures to guide them. But they still want to live forever, so they seek out and "listen to other voices" of the religions of the land we were born into for instruction. As it is written;

    Is. 30:9 That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:

    10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:

    Calvin, Constantine, Gameliel, Luther, Pink, the Pope, and on and on and on, are all these "other voices" men listen too, because they don't Trust God/Christ to open up the Scriptures for them.

    This is why I try to stay focused on Scriptures, and examine them for what they say, not use them to justify a religious tradition, like the popular religious tradition of rejecting and polluting God's Sabbaths, and other Statutes and Commandments.

    So my friend, I am not your teacher, and you are not my student. You and I are servants to whomever we "Yield ourselves" to "OBEY", as Paul teaches. If we yield our self to obey the teaching of the Pope, then we are his servants. If we yield our self to obey the teaching of Calvin, or Luther, or as Paul before his conversion, Gameliel, then we are servants to the religious philosophy and tradition of these men.

    If we yield our self, as Jesus and Abraham did, to obey the God of the Bible, then we are HIS Servants.

    We started with a discussion about the Hebrews verse you posted as support for your philosophy regarding God's Holy Sabbath.

    Heb. 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

    5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

    6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

    7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

    8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

    9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

    10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

    11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

    We have been given examples of those who first heard the Gospel of Christ, but didn't believe it, choosing instead to seek out "other" religious voices who lied to them about God.

    If we can't accept these Examples of Unbelief as Truth, then we are doomed to follow after these examples of unbelief.

    You and I, like Abraham and Jesus, were born into a World filled with religions. We are influenced by their religious doctrines and traditions, just as those in Jesus Time was influenced by them.

    God has provided us with His Word so we are not dependent on carnal humans for instruction in righteousness. WE Have His instruction in our own homes, all we need now is belief/faith.

    So for you and I, I am saying lets look again at Col. 2 and Hebrews 4. Let's let the Scriptures interpret themselves. And let's be aware of the ancient religious doctrines and traditions we were born into, and are influenced by.

    Let's "hear" HIS Word's in belief, and obedience, not unbelief and disobedience like the examples of those who fell in the wilderness, examples God has specifically written for us.

    Eph. 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

    2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
     
  5. EmethAlethia

    EmethAlethia Newbie

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  6. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member

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    Since it appears we agree for the most part I will only comment or ask questions where I deem we "may" disagree.

    [/QUOTE]

    The more we talk, I see the less we agree. I have asked you to show me where God Commanded His people to worship Him on a certain day, as is the tradition of this worlds religions, and also your stated belief. But you ignored the question as if I didn't ask it. Instead, you accused me of wanting to reinstate the Priesthood Covenant God made with Levi. From my perspective, this was you diverting and deflecting away from your own religious philosophy by trying to turn the tables on me. You did this to protect your religious belief "from the Scriptures" which might expose them as from man and not from God.

    When it would have been more beneficial for us both for you to simply study the Scriptures and show me where you learned that God Commanded His People to gather and worship Him one day a week. Both answering the question you were asked, which is simple kindness, and seeking to confirm the foundations of your own religious beliefs, which we are also instructed to do through study.

    Jesus referenced a Scripture in Jeremiah 6. when HE was speaking in Matthew 11.

    Jer. 6: 16 Thus saith the LORD, (Word of God who became Flesh) Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

    Matt. 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

    Whose Rest will Jesus give those who "Come to Him"? Will HE not give them God's Rest? His Sabbath that HE made for man? Didn't both Jesus and Paul walk in this Commandment, as well as the others?

    Whose Word's did Jesus give us?

    John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

    5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

    7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

    8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

    But the religions of this world have not received them, have they. Abraham did, when HE saw Christ's day. Caleb did, Gideon did, Shadrack did, Zacharias did, Simeon did, Anna did, Peter did, Paul did. But the religions of this world did not.

    When Paul is speaking regarding the "Weak in Faith" in Rom. 14, why didn't you acknowledge who he was speaking about?

    5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

    What are we to be persuaded of? Who created the Week. Who Sanctified the 7th day? Who made this a Commandment of God. Did Jesus honor His Father's Commandment, did Paul? Did either of them allow themselves to be judged by religious men over their obedience to God, the Creator of the Sabbath HE "made for man"?

    What was Paul's belief?

    Acts 24:13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.

    14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

    1 Cor. 7:19 Circumcision (Jew) is nothing, and uncircumcision (Gentile) is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

    Col. 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.


    In your religious philosophy, when did Paul stop believing his own words here?

    When he was speaking of the "weak in faith"?

    If Paul is telling us the truth, and he believes the God of the Bible, then didn't he also believe these Word's of God?

    Is. 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

    7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.


    God's Holy Sabbath "IS" a Shadow of things yet to come. Not "WAS" a Shadow. It is important not to amend scriptures in order to make them say what the Author didn't intend?

    16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

    17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

    And your religious philosophy "we aren't supposed to judge anyone with regards to shadows and keeping them".

    This is also altering the meaning of Paul's Words, in my view, to fit a worldly religious philosophy. "Let no man judge you" is what Paul said. This isn't even speaking to most religious men of this world, because they openly reject God's Commandments regarding these "shadows of things yet to come". And rejecting, polluting and omitting these Word's of God is a religious tradition of men clearly shown in The "Examples of unbelief" you and I were told not to follow.

    If you want to see the "Judgment" Paul is speaking to, just follow the Christ's instruction regarding God's Commandments. Then you will understand why Paul said not to let religious men "Judge you" in your voluntary humility towards God.

    But you don't understand any of this because you are " intruding into those things which you hath not seen".

    I say this, not as a judgment, but as mere fact. By your own words you have precluded yourself from the group of People Paul is addressing in Col. 2. Is this not the truth?

    Again, you make the accusation, like me wanting to re-establish the "Order of Aaron", but all you have is your own words. No examples, no proof, nothing. You disagree with my understanding, but can not offer any evidence as to why, other than my understanding differs from yours.. Notice that when I disagree with you, I post Scriptures and ask questions of you in an attempt to honestly discuss the disagreement. I use the verses you post, as well as others in order to confirm the reason for my beliefs, and I ask questions, that you pretty much have ignored. So show me in Acts where I am teaching the opposite. Surely you understand that there should be at least some evidence in an accusation. It's OK to point out my error. I welcome it, but you must give me something more that you just think so. You must back it up with something more than your own words. Jesus ALWAYS used Old Testament Scriptures to correct folks or show them their error.

    This is a popular religious tactic to be sure. Religious men twisting Scriptures, or isolating them from the rest of the Bible to promote this religious Franchise, or that religious philosophy. If I have done this, then please show me. Please don't just make baseless accusations. This is bad for both of us.


    But this is exactly what you have done since I brought up this World's rejection of God's Sabbath Commandment. You have even amended Paul's Word's in order to prove a point he wasn't making. I can predict every verse you will use to justify the rejection of God's Sabbath. Because this world's religions also isolate and twist them to justify their rejection of God's Sabbath Jesus said was made for man. They have been doing this for Centuries. They uses the same few verses, they reject the entire Law and Prophets, and most of what Jesus actually taught.

    I think if you followed your own instruction first, you might understand where I am coming from.

    Here is another perfect example of the influence of this world's religious philosophy. I will ask you a question here, and see if you will or can answer.

    In the OT, Moses gave instruction as to how a man became justified from sin. So when a man sinned, what were the "works of the Law" required for forgiveness?

    If you have gathered ALL the Scriptures which pertain to this issue, and are now preaching doctrine surrounding it, you should be able to tell me what these "Works of the Law" were for justification of sin in the OT. I am looking forward to your Scriptures support of what these "Works of the Law" are.

    Good question.

    Why wasn't "Thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself" added to the list of requirements? Or "Love the Lord thy God"

    Does this mean that this particular LAW of God is no longer Law? These Gentiles in Acts, did they not "Turn to God"? And where was there a place for them to "Hear" Moses teach about God?

    Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

    43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

    44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

    Why would Peter and James direct the Gentiles in regard to a Commandment of God they already knew about? Wouldn't it be more beneficial for Peter to point out the iniquity they were still in the practice of engaging in?

    Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

    19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: (Of the Bible)

    20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, (Law of Moses) and from fornication,(Law of Moses) and from things strangled, (Law of Moses) and from blood. (Law of Moses)

    21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

    Did Peter not know what God/Moses teaches about HIS Sabbath?

    I will also ask you another question that I hope you show me the simple kindness of answering.

    Didn't Peter and James simply follow the same Path Jesus directed them to follow?

    Matt. 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

    2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

    3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

    4 For they (Pharisees, not God or Moses))bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

    What if the religions of this worlds preaching of this chapter, that you are promoting, is the deception? And Peter understood the religious philosophies of the religious men of his time, knowing they were attempting to place a Yoke of Bondage neither they or their fathers could bear, as Jesus tells us in Matt. 23. So Peter directed these Gentiles away from the mainstream preachers of his time, and directed them straight to Moses, as Jesus also instructed him?

    After all, as Jesus Himself said "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

    Back in Paul's Time, where would they go to hear Moses? Where would we go now? Don't we have the Oracles of God in our own home?

    Shall I not include and believe EVERY Scripture when I study to understand?

    "If the Sabbath is a part of the Law that we are to maintain, why didn't the people in Acts add that to the list of requirements?"

    Is your question any more relevant than mine below?

    "If Love your neighbor as thyself is part of the Law that we are to maintain, why didn't the people in Acts add that to the list of requirements?"

    These are the straight forward, honest questions and discussions I thought you were looking for. I look forward to your answer to my questions.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2021
  7. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member

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    It's in the Verse you omitted. Here, let me include the rest of Peter's words here so as to not hide or twist the true meaning of his teaching.

    21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

    Where is Peter's instruction to reject God's Sabbath here? Surely Peter knew Moses taught to keep God's commandments, including the 4th one.

    Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

    Where did Peter changed his belief between Acts 5 and Acts 15? I say he didn't. And that it isn't Peter who is in Error here, but those religious philosophers who has influenced you regarding God's Commandment. But if you think Peter changed his mind, please show me where?


    Answer this question please. Who did the gentiles "Turn to"? So who have they believed? God or the religions of the land they were born into?

    It is clear these Gentiles who "turned to God" already knew abut repentance, and Loving God, and they knew about His Sabbaths as the Scriptures i showed you clearly show. But they were still engaged in these iniquities.

    How is my understand here opposed to the Scriptures. Please show me.

    So then, if you are judging righteously, and are no respecter of persons, then Peter must also be obsessed with fornication and strangled animals, Yes? I mean, he didn't mention loving our neighbors, Loving God with all our hearts, committing Adultery. So in your religious philosophy, because he pointed out to them their iniquity, and instructed them to "Go and commit these sins no more", he must be obsessed with drinking blood or fornication.

    What if you were cheating on your spouse, in Christ's Name? If I saw this, should I not point this out as well? Would you then also accuse me of "Loving my belief" because I pointed out a Transgression of God's Law? Would I then be accused of obsessing over adultery?

    We are discussing God's Command regarding His Holy Sabbath. Why would I talk about adultery if we are discussing God's Sabbath? If you also believe that thou shall not commit adultery "doesn't fit" your religion, then I am glad to have a Biblical conversation about that as well. But I thought we were discussing God's Sabbath Commandment. That is why I am talking about it.

    Show me this inconsistency? You keep making these accusations, but do not give me examples of my doing what you accuse me of doing. I want to understand Biblical Truth. If I am sinning, then you are obligated, by law, to show me. Not with your lips, by with evidence that I can be corrected and reproved with. So far, it is you who have omitted scriptures, changed words, taken verses out of context, to justify your belief. As I have clearly shown you in love of the brethren. Love me back please.

    In Romans 14 Paul is speaking about the weak in faith. Not unlike those Gentiles who had just "turned to God" in Act's 15. Once these "Weak in Faith" have listened to Moses and the Disciples of Jesus, in obedience, as Peter instructed those in Acts 15, they will become persuaded regarding what day, if any, is regarded by God as different than others. Then they will choose to "believe" or "follow the examples of unbelief" which we are also instructed not to do.

    Those in Colossians were not weak in faith. "To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse:"

    The men were Faithful Saints that Paul is telling not to let the religions of this world, through religious philosophy, vain deceit, and the traditions of men, judge them for their "voluntary Humility" in Yielding themselves to God. You can't understand Paul here, because the Truth is, you have never been in the place these Faithful Brethren were in.

    So you are trying to Link Paul's message regarding the weak in faith, to those who are "Grounded in Faith".

    23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

    The men in Colossians have already been convinced about what Day God sanctified above another. And Paul is telling them not to let the religious philosophers of this world judge them.


    How does this not agree with the rest of the Bible? Please show me.

    Religious men can judge the Holy Scriptures before Acts as irrelevant if they want to. God will let them make that choice. But Jesus taught salvation from the Law and Prophets, and so did Peter, and so did Paul who both died before their letters, including Acts, were even added to the Scriptures. The preaching that somehow only the verses of the Bible after Acts are relevant is foolishness, really.

    Both Paul and Jesus promoted the Gospel of Christ without Paul's letters. Israel was shown the Gospel of Christ but didn't believe in it. How you can read the Gospel of Christ given to Israel first, and not recognize the importance of God's Commandments, including the 4th one, is astounding.

    You post excellent advice from somewhere, but you are not following it when you try and isolate the Scriptures after Acts from the Scriptures before Acts. And why would anyone do such a thing? To justify your religious philosophy? So then who is it whose belief is so precious to them, that they would erase entire Books from the Bible to preserve it?

    So far, between the two of us, it is you who are disregarding scriptures.. Personally I don't just believe that one part of God's Word is Truth and the rest is irrelevant. But this practice is very prevalent in the religions of this world.

    "Requiring the Sabbath law be observed just doesn't fit"


    This is what the "Examples of unbelief" we were told not to follow also believed. If you were interested in Biblical Truth you could go back to these examples and see for yourself. But to do so would expose the popular religious tradition of rejecting God's Holy Sabbath as from man and not from God.

    God's Sabbaths, that the Jesus of the Bible said was "Made for man" has never "Fit" in with the religions of this world. It never will. This is simply Biblical fact. The religions of this world will never accept the "Way of the Lord".

    John 17:
    14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

    15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

    16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

    17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

    But men don't believe God's Word is Truth. They create their own religions, their own High Days, their own images of God in the likeness of some handsome, long haired men's hair shampoo model.

    I may be a Caleb surrounded by the religious men of this world.

    But I'm sticking with the Christ of the Bible anyway. Even where His 4th Commandment, that this world's religions reject, is concerned.


    There is surely a cost to accepting the Christ of the Bible. My perspective is from a man who left mainstream religions 30 years ago. Over time I have come to understand why Jesus said His Sabbath was made for man. Why the "Shadows" of what is yet to come is important to keep in our minds, and why Jesus and Paul followed them through out their whole life, even teaching us to "Keep the Feast". But this perspective comes from a man who has rejected the religious philosophies of this world, not the Instructions of the God of the Bible.

    That is the main difference between us.

    Heb. 5:
    8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

    9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec. (Not Aaron)

    11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

    12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

    13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

    14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

    If you are really seeking Truth, then answer my questions honestly, with no religious bias. And then we can see the Truth of God according to Scriptures, not the religious philosophies of the religious men of this world.

    Thanks for this discussion by the way. There are good to have in this evil time.

     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2021
  8. EmethAlethia

    EmethAlethia Newbie

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    1.) There are 3 passages that even refer to the Sabbath after acts. Your favorite Hebrews passage, and


    Rom 14:1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. 2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. 3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.


    We all knew which group within the church was all into holding fast to the Jewish law and which day they were arguing about keeping during the week. We are not supposed to judge ANYONE over these things. Something that was obviously going on at the time. The question is, Why shouldn’t we judge? If there is still a commandment we are supposed to obey, “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.”, right? “Why do you call Me Lord, Lord, and do not do as I say.”, Right? Obedience results from faith “Teach My disciples to Obey All that I have commanded you.” Is a part of the great commission. If it is still commanded, is Paul disobedient here? And #2…


    Col 2:6 Therefore, as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude. 8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; … 16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.


    This is the second time Paul says not to let anyone else be your judge with regards to food and drink or keeping the Sabbath or not. And, of course, if we shouldn’t let anyone do it, we shouldn’t be doing it either, right? These things are considered the traditions of men now, not those of Christ and Christianity. Sure, be firmly convinced in your own mind … and do it that way. That’s for you to judge … for yourself. Not for anyone else. These are the things we have complete liberty in now that we are under Christ. I get that they are important to you. But if they are important enough that you judge others based on this one standard, on which side of these passages are you.


    There are 3, count them, 3 places where the Sabbath is discussed after Acts. That’s it. 2 of them pertain to not being judged and not judging based on the foods we eat or Sabbaths. If they are important or essential now, how could these passages have been written? I am not judging you for your desire to keep the O.T. Sabbath. That’s great. I celebrate the Feast of First fruits from the dead, Jesus, who rose early on the first day of the week on Saturday at dusk. Do you judge me? Do you not judge the other servants of Christ based on their keeping of the Sabbath or not? I feel this is majoring in the minors … but still … feel free to do as you please, but God commands not to judge based on eating or drinking or keeping the Sabbath. Do you obey Him. Then find something else to judge based on.
     
  9. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member

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    It was you who first posted the Hebrews verse. I was replying to your use if it to justify your transgression of God's commandment. I have no "Favorite" passage.

    James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;

    20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

    You are confusing showing someone their sin, or error, with Judging. This is why I asked you questions regarding this verse. But you refused to answer.

    I'll ask again: Did God treat every day alike? Or did HE regard some days above others?

    So then have you been Convinced the ONE True God is Lord?

    What is Jewish Law? Was Jesus considered Perfect because HE followed God's Law, or Jewish Law?

    What did Jesus mean when HE said:

    Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

    8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

    9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

    Where is Paul instructing the "Weak in Faith" to reject God's Word? All Paul is saying is to not pass judgment on a believer who has not yet learned what Sin is? If he is truly seeking God, then God is capable to directing him into all Truth. AS HE did for Paul.

    1 Cor. 7:19 Circumcision (Jew) is nothing, and uncircumcision (Gentile) is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

    You are trying to bend this verse to fit your own religious philosophy. I have asked you before, but you refuse to even address the question. Shall we base the foundation of our belief in the regards of a person weak in Faith? Or shall we all Cling to the One Master who has given us the Holy Scriptures "For instruction in righteousness".


    Col 2:6 Therefore, as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude. 8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

    Did Jesus walk in God's Commandments, or did HE follow the traditions of the religions of the world HE as born into? It's a simple question.



    9
    For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

    "
    Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"

    What is the "body of the Flesh"?

    16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.


    This is the second time Paul says not to let anyone else be your judge with regards to food and drink or keeping the Sabbath or not.

    Why must you continue to twist Paul's Sentences to fit your narrative? This is a wicked practice. There is not one place where Paul said not to let religious philosophers of this world judge you for "NOT" obeying God. This verse is speaking to those who Respect God instruction, those who DO CARE, "What God Commandments say".

    According to the Religious philosophers of this world, this is true, but not according to the God of the Bible. The things you preach to the world are "NOW" traditions of men, were also rejected by the people who were first given the Gospel of Christ. They also, like the religions of this world, reject God's commandments, including His Holy Sabbath. This is why we are directed to examine the "Examples of unbelief" so we don't follow them.

    These things are Truth.


    You keep trying to make this about me. But I never have. I simply post scriptures and ask questions that offend you to the point where you must completly ignore them as if I didn't even ask.

    I must certainly be able to "Judge" what the Scriptures are saying.

    2 Tim. 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

    And again;

    2 Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

    First it is disrespectful and rude to completely ignore another person in a discussion. To blow off their questions as if they don't exist, or matter, and to continue on as if the other person has nothing to say. I have not done this to you, but you have to me from the start of our conversation.

    I am not interested in the religious philosophies of Calvin, or the Pope.

    But I am interested in a conversation about Scriptures where we exchange understandings and ask and answer questions. I answered your questions, and I asked several of you, but you refuse to answer. I can only assume it is because the honest answer can not be used to further your religious philosophy. You may have another reason for ignoring my questions, if you do, you have not shared it with me.


    I'm not saying you are wrong or right at this point. I am posting Scriptures, asking questions about them, answering your questions in Love as I did in the post you just replied to.

    While you are ignoring my questions, and accusing me of Judging you.

    Think about this friend. You are willing to erase ALL of the Word's of God, the 4 Gospels, Acts, everything before Romans, so you can make the argument that God's Holy Sabbath was only mentioned 3 times. And then you still have to twist Paul's Words in order to make them fit the popular religious philosophy of those "Examples of Unbelief" given us in the Part of the Bible you have been convinced is irrelevant.

    Even after the Jesus you call "Lord, Lord, flat out tells you;

    "Man shall Live by Every Word which Proceeds from the mouth of God" and "God's Sabbath was made for man".

    If you didn't know these Word's of the Christ existed, it would be one thing. But to know, and ignore them anyway, is a completely different matter.

    It is written that God's word doesn't return void. So I am hoping that in the confines of your own home, when no one is watching, you might actually answer the questions I asked and consider the Word's of God I presented to you.

    If you are truly Seeking, you will hear Him. But if you are simply here to promote Calvin, or other popular religious philosophers of this world, well this will be made known as well.
     
  10. EmethAlethia

    EmethAlethia Newbie

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  11. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member

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    I don't have to lie about my intentions as many do. I have told you what I want. And that is an honest, unbiased examination of Scriptures that at first you claimed to also believe in.

    But you have no such interest it seems, as even after I asked you several times, kindly, to answer my questions, you still refuse.

    Your implication that Paul rebuked Peter because Peter was obeying God is another popular lie vomited out by the prince of this worlds religions. Paul did not rebuke Peter because Peter was obeying God, Paul rebuked Peter because Peter was Transgressing God's Commandments by choosing to live by the religious traditions of the mainstream religions of his time.

    I started this Thread that you said was a good thread, to expose the many, many deceptions that are believed on as truth by the religious masses. Sadly, most men are really only here to justify their religion, their religious philosophy which is most precious to men. And so far, you too, have proven unwilling to even engage or discuss any Scriptures which might shed Light on the darkness of your mind. But who knows if you might actually do the study yourself, or maybe some one else is following along. So I will show you why your use of Paul in this issue is a deception anyway, knowing you will probably ignore it just as you have everything else I have posted..

    7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

    8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles) (Uncircimcision)

    So Paul called the Mainstream Religions of his time, that is the Jews, or Pharisees, "the Circumcision". And those who were not part of the Mainstream Religion of his time, he called the "Uncircumcision". Peter was to share the Gospel of Christ with the Jews, (Uncircimcision) Paul with the Gentiles. (Circumcision)

    9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, (Gentiles, uncircumcision)) and they unto the circumcision. (Jews, Circumcision)

    10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

    11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

    12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they (Mainstream religious Jews) were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. (Peter didn't want the Jews to see him fellowship (Eat) with the uncircumcision. (Gentiles)

    13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

    14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

    The Mainstream religions of the world they were born into rejected God's Commandments. They Transgressed God's Commandments by their own religious traditions. They taught for doctrines the Commandments of men, not God. Jesus called the "Circumcision" Children of the devil.

    It was a "Commandment of Men" of the religious Jews not to fellowship with Gentiles. Paul also speaks to this Jewish Fable in Ephesians 2.

    11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called "the Circumcision" in the flesh made by hands;

    So Paul is saying that the Gentiles, who were called the "Uncircumcision" BY THE
    Mainstream Preachers of his time, who was also known by Paul as "the Circumcision".

    12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

    But according to the Law and Prophets, or Gospel of Christ as it is also known, Gentiles/Strangers/the Uncircumcision were never "without Christ" with no hope and without God in the World. And the "Gospel of Christ" always taught not to "Vex" or be a respecter of persons towards these "Gentiles/Strangers/the Uncircumcision". It's in the Gospel of Christ.

    Lev. 19:9 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest. 10 And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God. (Remember the poor, as Paul also believes)

    15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

    33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.

    34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

    Paul rebuked Peter to his face because Peter was transgressing God's Commandments. The Gospel of Christ clearly shows His People are to use Righteous Judgment to both the Jew and the Gentile.

    But the Mainstream religions of the world Paul was born into, omitted these important instructions, and created their own Commandments, as the Jesus of your own Bible tells you of you were to believe in Him.

    Thus the reason also for Paul's teaching "For Circumcision (Jew) means nothing, Uncircumcision (Gentile) means nothing, but keeping the Commandments of God.

    Jesus also touched on this which angered the Mainstream Preachers of His Time.

    Luke 4:25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;

    26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.

    27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.

    28 And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,

    29 And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.

    Rehab was also another of several examples of the "uncircumcised" not being without Christ, not without hope and not without God in the world. Jesus used His Gospel to expose their Hypocrisy. This is the pattern I use when confronting mainstream preachers of my time. And the Anger is still there.

    You don't know these things because you have been "carried away" by the wicked influence of the religions of this world.

    I am trying to show you, not by just preaching to you, as all the others in the religions of this world do, but by posting God's Word for examination, like Jesus Did, examining and asking questions about the actual scriptures. This way you can be convinced, not by any other voice in the garden, but by the Christ of the bible.`
     
  12. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member

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    There are at least 30 verses in the Gospel of Christ, that was first preached to the Children of Israel in Egypt, in which God instructs His People to Keep His Commandments. If I posted them all I would have two pages of scriptures. Jesus also said to Keep God's Commandments, Paul also said to Keep God's Commandments, and Peter also.

    Jesus even separated one Commandment of God out and said it was "Made for man".

    So you are not being honest here. The reason why you judge one of God's Commands as unworthy of your respect, is because this is what is taught in the Mainstream Religions of this world. The Bible doesn't even suggest anywhere that men should reject, despise, pollute or omit God's Commandments. Religions of this world, however, have always taught to omit some of God's commandments.

    I asked you once, but as is your religious tradition, you never answered, "what were the "works of the Law" for justification/forgiveness in the Law and Prophets.

    Why is it modern religious men can not, or will not answer simple questions regarding Scriptures?
     
  13. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member

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    Yes, Eve was also convinced by the "other voice" in the garden to reject God's Word, and use her own logic, reason and rational thinking. Would you accept this reasoning from your two year old child? Shall we then call God a Liar, or "unreasonable" or "irrational" because we have been convinced by the religious voices of this world to place our Faith in religions instead of the "One True God"? So then, you must also think the Christ of the Bible is also a fool.

    John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    Look, I get it. Religions of this world have always believed God was illogical, unreasonable, irrational.
    It's right there in the "examples of Unbelief" you posed that we are not to follow.

    why are you following them then?



    Transgressing God's Commandments is a Sin, at least according to the Christ of the Bible.. You may have been convinced you have power over God to Judge His Commandments. But I am not convinced, given your religious philosophies, that you have power over God to make void His Commandments. And why would you even want to, unless you are the enemy of God. Are you an enemy of God?

    So who is the wicked man in your religious philosophy? A man who hears the Words of the Christ of the Bible, and "does them"? Or the man who hears the Word's of the Christ of the Bible, and "does them not"?
     
  14. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member

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    Of course the Law is Holy. without it we can't know what Sin is. What the Mainstream Preachers of Jesus time did, was reject God's definition of Sin and created their own. In their definition of sin, they considered fellowship with a non Jew a Sin. When it was not according to the God they didn't trust. They also considered walking in a corn field in fellowship on God's Sabbath and picking a raspberry to eat along the way was also a Sin against the Commandment of God. But it was not a Sin according to God.

    We are not "Under the Law" because we have been forgiven our trespasses, if we repent. But do you not listen to Paul?

    Rom. 6:15 What then? shall we transgress God's Commandments, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. (That means NO!)

    16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of transgression of God's Commandments, unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

    Remember, the God of the Bible Purchased me with the Blood of Christ. I am no longer my own. I, therefore, "Yield myself" to the ONE TRUE GOD that Jesus reconciled me to.

    I am now a Faithful servant of God's Righteousness. No longer a servant to the Doctrines and Traditions of the religions of the world i was born into.


    Oh my goodness. How can you possibly be talking about the God of the Bible?

    Ex. 16:26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.

    27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.

    28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

    29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day. 30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

    Ex. 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

    Lev. 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings. 4 These are the feasts of the LORD, (The Christ) even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

    Duet. 5:12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.

    13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:

    14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

    15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

    Neh. 9:13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments: 14 And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:

    15 And gavest them bread from heaven for their hunger, and broughtest forth water for them out of the rock for their thirst, and promisedst them that they should go in to possess the land which thou hadst sworn to give them.

    16 But they and our fathers dealt proudly, and hardened their necks, and hearkened not to thy commandments, 17 And refused to obey, neither were mindful of thy wonders that thou didst among them; but hardened their necks, and in their rebellion appointed a captain to return to their bondage: but thou art a God ready to pardon, gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and forsookest them not.

    Is. 56:1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.

    2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

    3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

    4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

    5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

    Jer. 17:21 Thus saith the LORD; Take heed to yourselves, and bear no burden on the sabbath day, nor bring it in by the gates of Jerusalem;

    22 Neither carry forth a burden out of your houses on the sabbath day, neither do ye any work, but hallow ye the sabbath day, as I commanded your fathers.

    23 But they obeyed not, neither inclined their ear, but made their neck stiff, that they might not hear, nor receive instruction.

    24 And it shall come to pass, if ye diligently hearken unto me, saith the LORD, to bring in no burden through the gates of this city on the sabbath day, but hallow the sabbath day, to do no work therein;

    25 Then shall there enter into the gates of this city kings and princes sitting upon the throne of David, riding in chariots and on horses, they, and their princes, the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: and this city shall remain for ever.

    Ez. 20:10 Wherefore I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt, (SIN) and brought them into the wilderness.

    11 And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them.

    12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.

    13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.

    MY point is that your religious philosophy regarding the Sabbath doesn't come from the God of the Bible, rather, from the religions of the prince of this world. If you believed as Jesus and Paul believed, you couldn't possible have made the statement you just made. You don't believe this because you are deceived into believing God didn't repeat the importance of His Commandments over and over again.. Deceived means to believe something that is a lie.

    You Said;

    "I try not to make major doctrines out of a single verse or passage ... I try to shout where God shouts, i.e. the word of God says it over and over again, repetitively."

    What Commandment did the God of the Bible repeat more than His Holy Sabbath? Who has convinced you of this insidious falsehood?

    My friend, to say that God didn't repeat, define, plead, and repeat again the importance of His Commandments, including His Holy sabbath is simple not true, as the verses I posted clearly show. So if you aren't getting your information about God from HIS Own Word, then where are you getting it? Calvin, Gameliel, Luther, the Pope?

    All I'm saying is what Paul is saying.

    Rom. 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

    2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

    And what Jesus is saying;

    Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    My friend, take a leap of Faith in the God of the Bible, Trust in Him as Jesus and Paul instructs us. Not the Religious philosophies of this world, but the Christ of the Bible. It's a Narrow path and few are on it. Trust the God of the Bible, not the god of this world.

    Is. 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

    14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

    You are either persuaded the Mouth of the Lord speaks Truth, or you are not. As Jesus Himself says.

    Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
     
  15. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member

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    I know what Sin is according to the Holy Scriptures. It is Transgression of God's Commandments. That is my belief, not because Calvin or some other voice in the garden says so, but because that is what the Bible says, both yours and mine. So in what way is my belief different than God's Word regarding sin? If you are going to correct me, shouldn't you have some evidence, something other than I disagree with this worlds religious philosophies. I mean, what if God's Word is True, and it is you who are mistaken.

    If you came in Christ's Name, preaching it was perfectly fine for a man or woman to cheat on their spouses, making it an optional Commandment, then I would be speaking to you about the Sin of Adultery. I would post the Word's of the Father of Jesus where HIS Commandment against Adultery was spoken. I would post Jesus and Paul's Word about the dangers of Transgressing God's Commandment where Adultery is concerned.

    But you are not advocating the rejection of God's commandment against Adultery, you are advocating against God's Commandment of Keeping the 7th Day of the Week Holy, making it an optional Commandment.

    Same God, Same set of Laws, but you are judging one as worthy of your respect, and one as unworthy. That makes you a Judge of God's instruction, not a servant.

    Just as Eve was also Convinced by other religious voices to Judge God's instruction as unworthy of her respect. This was all written for our admonition so we wouldn't follow the "Same example of unbelief".
     
  16. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member

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    No, this is simply false. I do not use my Judgment. I am simply pointing out the Judgment of God as it appears in the Holy scriptures. You are free to cheat on your spouse while cooking pork, that you stole for profit, from the local butcher on Saturday, in Christ's Name if you want. I will post the Scriptures where God makes known HIS Judgment of those who would do such things. That is not my judgment, it is His.

    I am not pointing out "MY" Judgment of those who reject, rebel against and Pollute God's Commandments. I am pointing out God's Judgment. If you don't "Believe" in His Judgment, that is fine. The Judgment is HIS, not mine.
     
  17. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member

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    You are deflecting from your own rudeness and disrespect you display for refusing to answer my questions. Whether or not you agree with my understanding of the scriptures is irrelevant to this point. What I said was true, and you don't deny it. Perhaps you might deal with that "beam" first, by apologizing for being rude, and answering my questions. Who knows what might be gained by the practice of common courtesy.
     
  18. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member

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    2 Tim. 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

    This is the very reason why I am speaking to you.

    No, that is something you heard from the "other voice" in the garden.

    Paul doesn't teach this. Instead HE teaches;

    Rom. 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

    12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

    13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

    And again;

    1 Cor. 7:19 Circumcision (Jew) is nothing, and uncircumcision (Gentile) is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

    Paul said, in addition to his other statements above;

    16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

    17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

    Your religious philosophy makes no sense. Paul tells us how important Keeping God's Commandments are, and Col. 2 is Paul following the same line of Thought as he has throughout his letters.

    1 Cor. 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

    8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

    WHY is Paul still promoting the Feast of Unleavened Bread all these years after Jesus ascended? Because they are Shadows of things Yet to come.

    Shall I let you or the religious philosophers of this world Judge me for obeying God rather than man? Paul says no. Shall I let religious men "beguile me of my reward in a voluntary humility"? Paul says no. Shall I not beware of the religious philosophers of this world, who promote the traditions of man and Rudiments of this world? Paul says Yes.

    So I would ask you, can I believe "ALL" that Paul and Jesus tell me, or only the Verses used by the religions of this world to justify their religious philosophy?
     
  19. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member

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    Love your neighbor as yourself is a Commandment of God... in the OT. Do not hate your brother in your heart is a Commandment of God... in the OT. Do not commit Adultery is a Commandment of God... in the OT.

    Do not muzzel the OX which treadeth out the Grain in a Commandment of God...in the OT.

    1 Cor. 9:8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?

    9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

    10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

    God's Commandments were written for our, that is, modern believers, Sake's no doubt. You don't believe this, and either did the "Examples of unbelief" we are told not to follow. But Paul does believe "ALL" that is written in the Law and Prophets. To deny this is to reject him outright.



    I will ask you some questions here, and of course you will not answer.

    Where does rebellion, unbelief, distrust, hatred, lying, disobedience come from? From within, or without?

    Did Jesus eat animals that HIS Father didn't create for food? Or did HE use them to cast demons into? Did Jesus say not to cast your pearls unto Sheep? Or Swine? Why do you believe HE said this?

    All "Food" is clean, but not all animals are clean for food. It's in the Gospel of Christ, all you need is Faith.
     
  20. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member

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    Why on earth would I rely on the religions of the land I was born into, to define Adultery for me? You do this, "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, do this. But I don't. According to the Holy scriptures, it is the Lusting after the voice of other religions that the Adultery Commandment was created for. Like lusting after another man's Wife, or a wife lusting after another woman's husband.

    Unlike you, who refuse to even acknowledge my questions, I will Address yours.

    Jer. 3:6 The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.

    7 And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.

    8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

    9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.

    10 And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

    11 And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.

    David had so many freedoms in Christ, he had many wives, he had wealth and power given him by the God of the Bible, but he lusted after those few things he didn't have.

    This is like those who call Jesus Lord, Lord, but refuse to do as HE says. they have so much freedom in Christ. Their debt to God paid, Free to eat almost every animal created, excepting Pork and Camels and shellfish. Free do build vineyards, businesses and create homes and families. We are living in a land of plenty, where we want for nothing. And God gave you 6 days to pursue "Your work" instructing only that you honor Him in reverence to this ONE Day a week, and not seek your money, your desires, rather, that you fast from this world just one day a week and dedicate this day to God apart from the activities of this world.

    But as the example of David that God had written for our admonition, that isn't enough for you. Even though God Purchased you with His Own Son's blood, you still Lust after the few things of this world that God instructs us not to lust after.

    It's no wonder God got so angry with the Examples of unbelief in the Law and Prophets. And yet, even this Anger didn't phase the Mainstream religions of Jesus Time, and it still doesn't phase the religions of the world we were born into.

    David's sin was committed the day he lusted after a woman God did not give him, just like the sin of lusting after the one day a week God Sanctified and made Holy, "for man".

    Ez, 23 is the same. These scriptures align with Paul's teaching. Don't lust after the religious philosophies and traditions of this world religions. As it is written;

    Rev. 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

    4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

    5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

    You don't understand this because you are lusting after the religions of this world. I am hoping you might actually consider the Scriptures you post, and really study them, as they are condemning your religious philosophy.
     
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