Debunking the population debunkers

There are several creationist analyses of world population growth that show it is perfectly reasonable for 8 people (Noah and family) to have produced today's population. Estimated average population growth rates to produce today's population from Noah's family are between 0.44% and 0.5%, depending on the site and the article. This is more than reasonable, since current world population growth is about 1.4%, and was recently as much as 2%.

I've seen these estimates "debunked" by evolutionists who point out that if the growth rate were constant, there would have been too few people around the time of Christ.

The problem with this "debuking" is that it starts with 8 people and then applies the average growth rate right at the start, immediately after the flood. If you do that, you get far too few people at the time of Christ. Our current estimates are about 200-300 million people living at that time, and the smooth curve would force the figure to be much, much smaller.

But if you estimate growth based on simple information from the Biblical account, you get an entirely different picture of early population growth. The people who lived immediately following the flood had much greater longevity than we do today, and had children at later ages. These lengths decreased over the next few hundred years. But even by the time Abram (Abraham) was born, the ages of parents begetting children and the ages at death were significantly higher than they are today. For example:


Genesis 11
10 This is the account of Shem. Two years after the flood, when Shem was 100 years old, he became the father [4] of Arphaxad. 11 And after he became the father of Arphaxad, Shem lived 500 years and had other sons and daughters.
12 When Arphaxad had lived 35 years, he became the father of Shelah. 13 And after he became the father of Shelah, Arphaxad lived 403 years and had other sons and daughters. [5]
14 When Shelah had lived 30 years, he became the father of Eber. 15 And after he became the father of Eber, Shelah lived 403 years and had other sons and daughters.
16 When Eber had lived 34 years, he became the father of Peleg. 17 And after he became the father of Peleg, Eber lived 430 years and had other sons and daughters.
18 When Peleg had lived 30 years, he became the father of Reu. 19 And after he became the father of Reu, Peleg lived 209 years and had other sons and daughters.
20 When Reu had lived 32 years, he became the father of Serug. 21 And after he became the father of Serug, Reu lived 207 years and had other sons and daughters.
22 When Serug had lived 30 years, he became the father of Nahor. 23 And after he became the father of Nahor, Serug lived 200 years and had other sons and daughters.
24 When Nahor had lived 29 years, he became the father of Terah. 25 And after he became the father of Terah, Nahor lived 119 years and had other sons and daughters.
26 After Terah had lived 70 years, he became the father of Abram, Nahor and Haran.

There's no way to know for certain what the population growth was, of course. But it is logical, based on the above information, that population growth would have been considerably higher than average for at least the first few hundred years after the flood. That's what happens when you have long life spans and people having children well into their 70s and beyond!

As the environment moved toward equilibrium after the flood, lifespans decreased, and the growth rate would have slowed down. That means the world population would have spiked early, and then settled into a lower rate.

So the "debunking" doesn't work. It depends entirely on a smooth exponential growth rate to come up with fewer people than we are confident were alive at the time of Christ. And it's clear that the Bible does not describe conditions that would infer a smooth exponential growth rate, but instead infers a growth rate that would more likely produce a large population quickly, after which growth would slow down significantly. It's perfectly logical for there to be more than enough people around at the time of Christ by simply taking into consideration all the details and not just the estimated average growth rate. If anything, the average growth rate would have to have dropped below 0.5% after the early spike in order to avoid coming up with more people than currently inhabit the earth.
 

kaotic

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where do you get your information. There isn't any evidence that noah and this family lived 100+ years, and you do know that if there was a world flood there would be evidence of it. And would have had scientific evidence already. The only evidence of a really major flood is in the black sea area.
 
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More nonsense.

But lets give you a chance. I want numbers. First of all give us your estimate of when the Noachian Deluge occured. From this try to give an estimate for population of Earth when the pyramids were made. Are they reasonable?

And population is more than the mere number of people. It also involves genetics. These eight humans (mom, pop, 3 kids, 3 kids wives) should have a lot more genetic diversity (2.5 times) than two animals. And yet humans have extremely low genetic diversity. There are family groups of chimpanzees with greater genetic diversity than the entire human race.
 
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Pete Harcoff

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I'm willing to concede that it could be possible for 8 humans over 4000 years to eventually reach 6 billion or so people (I did go through that link you provided awhile back on the subject).

But like ardipithecus says, the bigger problem is with genetics. I'm still waiting for someone to address this.
 
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Originally posted by ardipithecus
More nonsense.

But lets give you a chance. I want numbers. First of all give us your estimate of when the Noachian Deluge occured. From this try to give an estimate for population of Earth when the pyramids were made. Are they reasonable?

And population is more than the mere number of people. It also involves genetics. These eight humans (mom, pop, 3 kids, 3 kids wives) should have a lot more genetic diversity (2.5 times) than two animals. And yet humans have extremely low genetic diversity. There are family groups of chimpanzees with greater genetic diversity than the entire human race.

The pyramids were made around 2700 BC, I believe. Also, the first recorded Chinese dynasties were around 3,000 BC.
 
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excreationist

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npetreley:
When do you think the Flood happened? AiG says it happened at about 2304 BC +/- 11 years. Are they wrong? If they're wrong, how are they wrong?

In Genesis 11, it seems that the whole world came together to build the Tower of Babel... is that right? How many people do you think were making a city out of stone that would reach the heavens? More than 100? You would have to allow some time for Noah's descendents to reach that population size.... then what about when the people were scattered across the earth...? Did they walk to their new homes or did God magically transport them there? If they walked, that would push the date for the Chinese civilization forward.
 
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Nathan Poe

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Let's not forget that apparantly people lived MUCH longer than 100+ years. The Bible lists many of them (all men) by name. The real recordbreakers are as follows:

Methusulah: 969 years (Gen 5:27)

Noah: 950 years (Gen 9:29)

Adam: 930 years (Gen 5:5)

AiG, of course, takes these seemingly outlandish figures as literal truth, and had a page "explaining" how it was scientifically possible: http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4082.asp. I highly reccomend this for a laugh.

Anyway, we can assume that these men kept their sex drive well into the triple digits of their ages, since Noah didn't father his sons until he was 500 years old(Gen 5:32)! Any one of these men therefore had plenty of time to singlehandedly (no pun intended) father a small country, albeit with a whole lot of incest along the way. So it is possible to jump start a population with a few very old breeders.

And if you believe that, I'm selling a piece of the Cross on eBay.
 
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Morat

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  Nick, didn't you get enough humiliation when you brought this up last time? The "population argument" is almost as thrillingly stupid as the "Moon Dust" argument.

   You used to bring up the occasionally interesting point. Generally wrong, in some exciting and stereotypically Nickish way, but different.

   But now you seem to be embarking on the World Tour of Arguments So Horribly and Blatantly Wrong That Even Most Creationists Cringe.

    Sure. 8 people can become 6 billion in a few thousand years. If everyone has kids. If no one dies in childbirth (or as an infant). If there are no wars, no plagues, and most of all no enviromental limits.

    Nick, under your "logic" (and I use the word loosely, here), we'ld all be up to our hips in rabbits. We're not. It's almost as if they're some sort of...limiting factor preventing excess population growth.

   Jeez. I wonder what that could be? Tiny rabbit condoms? A rabbit religion based on chastity? Rampant rabbit homosexuality? Recent generations of rabbits too inbred to figure out how to breed?

   Oh wait. It's food. Access to food is the same thing that limits every population, including our own. We grow to the limits of our food supply, then stop until we can increase it. (And by stop I mean "If you don't have enough food, it's bloody hard to get pregnant and the old and really young start croaking off)

  So, you're argument is horribly, horribly wrong because of one, tiny, obvious fact of biology: People are made of food. If you don't have extra food, you can't make more people.

 
 
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JohnR7

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Originally posted by npetreley
I've seen these estimates "debunked" by evolutionists who point out that if the growth rate were constant, there would have been too few people around the time of Christ. 

I can not remember the exact story, but it has to do with a chess board. There was a man who had a very nice one, made out of the finest natural materials. He decided to try and sell it to the king. The king thought it was wonderful, and he wanted to know the price. So the salesman took out a grain of rice. He put the grain of rice on one square on the chess board. Then he took out two grains of rice, and put them on the second square. On the third square he put four grains of rice. On the fourth square he put eight grains of rice. Then he turned to the king. He said if you keep doubling the rice all the way up to square 64, that is the price I want for my chess board. Now, like I said, I do not remember the exact story if the king jumped at the offer or not. But I do know that by the time you get to square 64, it adds up to all the rice in the world. In fact, I did the math on it myself, and it adds up to just about exactly the amount of rice being produced in the world today.

There just happens to be 64 generations from Adam to Jesus.  It is a good thing that not every family had 4 kids as the Noah's family did. Becasue then it would have only taken 24 generations to reach 8 billion people and there are only 6 billion people in the world today.

Matthew 1:17  So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations, from David until the captivity in Babylon are fourteen generations, and from the captivity in Babylon until the Christ are fourteen generations.


 
 
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Morat

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There just happens to be 64 generations from Adam to Jesus.  It is a good thing that not every family had 4 kids as the Noah's family did. Becasue then it would have only taken 24 generations to reach 8 billion people and there are only 6 billion people in the world today.

   Do me a favor. Go buy a large cage, and two rabbits (one of each sex). Each day, place in enough food to feed 20 rabbits. Each night, remove the excess. (This gets rid of building up excess food when you have less than 20 rabbits, and simplifies the problem).

    Now, let the rabbits do what rabbits do. After 5 years, how many rabbits do you have in the cage?

   Now, given the average reproduction time (and litter size) of rabbits, how many should you  have based on your "doubling" method?

   Are the numbers even close?

 

 
 
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Nathan Poe

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Originally posted by JohnR7
I can not remember the exact story, but it has to do with a chess board.


*Ancient Islamic parable of the Vizier and the chessboard snipped*

There just happens to be 64 generations from Adam to Jesus.  It is a good thing that not every family had 4 kids as the Noah's family did. Becasue then it would have only taken 24 generations to reach 8 billion people and there are only 6 billion people in the world today.

Matthew 1:17  So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations, from David until the captivity in Babylon are fourteen generations, and from the captivity in Babylon until the Christ are fourteen generations. 


*RANT MODE ON*
All this would work IF raising families was just a function of simple arithmatic, which of course, it's not. But let's play along...

IF every generation has just so many children,

IF none of those mothers or children died in childbirth (a miracle for ancient times! Just 150 years ago, a woman had about a 1 in 4 chance of dying due to complications of childbirth. In ancient times, a child had about a 50/50 chance of making it out of infancy),

IF each succeeding generation mates, breeds and repeats the cycle exactly (which would require an exact male/female ratio and a heavy dose of inbreeding),

IF enough food, water, and shelter can be provided to nurture this ever-growing family (hope those kids learn farming at a really young age!),

IF there are no plagues, famines, droughts, or natural disasters to thin out the gene pool (natural disasters? In Biblical times? NAH!),

THEN, of course, it could, in theory, be possible for 8 people to grow to 6.5 billion in a few short millenia.

How could this all be possible? That's right! "Goddidit!"

*RANT MODE OFF*
 
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