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Featured Debating the Existence of the Pre-Trib Rapture

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Matisyahu8898, Oct 19, 2017.

  1. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    2Ti 4:1  I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 


    1Pe_4:5  Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.


    Rev 11:18  And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 

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    Last edited: Nov 12, 2017
  2. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    It is called that simply because it is the only time in history that satan is locked in chains in the abyss for 1000 years not being able to deceive anyone ,
    For 1000 years humans will be ruled by Christ without the interference of satan , You should find a good church and enroll in a bible study course

    Revelation 20
    2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 13, 2017
  3. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    I have been studying scripture for nearly 40 years and continually investigating what is happening in the world that lines up with end times prophecy and everyone I have met that favors preterism tried to tell me that the antichrist has already been and will not be coming in the future,Jesus has come and gone , millennium has been completed and a whole bunch of nonsense . I can agree with some of your statements but they don't come together to make a point ,
    It would be easier to see what you are trying to say if you would just say it outright without using scripture , after you point out clearly what your end game point is it would be easier to see how the scriptures ties into it .
    I ask what is he driving at? Nero was not THEE antichrist just one of the many that have come through the ages
     
  4. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    Amen!

    Appearance, Resurrection Of All/ Quick Righteous, Dead Wicked, Final Judgment, Eternal Punishment, Eternal Life "Simple"!

    Matthew 25:31-46 is a favorite, cant be disputed, Jesus Return with angels, Nations Gathered Before The Throne, Eternal Final Judgment In Verse 46, Wicked To "Eternal Punishment, Righteous "Eternal Life"

    Earthly Millennial Kingdom Destroyed! :)
     
  5. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    This is 100% pure interpretation. And it is erroneous. "The nations, are not "the dead." They are the living. Those still living are brought before Jesus at that time, and the wicked are destroyed and the righteous are brought into the kingdom. Your doctrine completely ignores the very many explicitly stated prophecies abut this kingdom, and the passage you are citing now most certainly does not say what you claim it means.
     
  6. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    Your respone in disraction has nothing to do with the facts presented in Matthew 25:31-46 that shows Jesus Christ Returns to the final judgment, verse 31-32 Jesus returns with the holy angels, the nations are gathered before the throne, verse 46 "wicked judged to "Eternal Punishment" the righteous "Eternal Life"

    You can run from this scriptural truth :)

    Your Proclaimed Earthly Millennial Kingdom At The Return Of Jesus Christ Is Gone! :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 13, 2017
  7. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    Appears you ignore the very clear teaching of scripture in Matthew 25:31-46, read it again and again.

    The Final Judgment To Eternal Punishment and Eternal Life takes place in verse 46

    Your distraction does not delete the clear presentation of scripture. There is one future final judgment to eternal punishment, eternal life, do you teach otherwise. :)

    Of course you dont want to see the word "Eternal" in verse 46, you have a false earthly kingdom to build, where humans will be born, live, and die physical death :)

    Scripture states "Eternal Life" in verse 46 and the kingdom seen in Matthew 25:34 is the "Eternal Life Kingdom" Simple:)
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2017
  8. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Saying anything without using scripture is how we most often get ourselves into trouble when trying to understand eschatology.
    Twisting scripture or leaving out some passages to make our doctrine work produces tremendous confusion.


    I never said Nero is the end-time antichrist, although he may have been a type for it.

    Although I cannot be sure of this, it appears that the future one world government may be ruled by one of the globalist money changers.

    It is their goal to produce a global government, whose capital will be Jerusalem.

    Rev 2:9  I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. 

    Rev 3:9  Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
     

    Rev 11:8  And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

    What is the great city where our Lord was crucified, which will be spiritually like Sodom and Egypt, near the time of the 7th trumpet? 








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    Last edited: Nov 13, 2017
  9. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    Just because you choose to remove Gods Word from your view does not make it true , Final judgment happens 1000 years AFTER Jesus returns , not immediately when he appears -Jesus says that man shall live "On EVERY WORD that comes form the mouth of God"
    You be like a typical post tribber removing Gods Word to suit your preference )
    Revelation 20:2-5
     
  10. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    You made my point but yet do not understand it?
    All preterists I have met used some historical event to try to say their prophetic view is accurate even though it be easy to prove it is not , the standard of accurate prophecy is to be 100% accurate nothing less. They all claim the the person called Thee Antichrist has come and gone -regardless of what name they offer as to who it was. They claim the 1000 year reign of Christ has either passed or will not happen among the folly they speak .They did not say if they are partial , half full , 3/4 or full preterists. If someone came to you and gave you a screwdriver , you would know what it is for but be wondering why the person gave it to you-

    When I was studying preterism it was so far fetched and wrong I set it aside and focus on what can be proven to be true, Since you will not state in a clarified manner just exactly what your point/message is -you cause the door for people to misunderstand you to be open. As they say in the courtroom of law -State your case - then support with evidence that has no flaw
    It is possible that globalist money changers be involved with the NWO , it is also possible the Son of Perdition would simply commandeer an existing global monetary system and when it is all controlled by computer driven technology it will make it easy for that to take place.
    There are many very advanced technologies being brought forward that will change the whole system that are being tested right now before being implemented .
    IIRC when I read about the Rothschild empire that the name Rothschild was not a given birth name but a chosen name so that many people could be regarded under that name It could well be Jerusalem be the capital of global government
     
  11. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    It truly makes me sad to see such gross wresting of scripture, in a desperate attempt to avoid what they so very explicitly state in so very many places.

    You keep saying that this is the final judgment and insist that the scriptures tell of only one such final judgment.

    The scriptures detail several different specific judgments. The one in Matthew 25:31-46 is specifically one of "all the nations." "the nations" does not mean the dead. it means the living.

    There is another one in Ezekiel 20:35-38, where we read, "33 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'surely with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out, I will rule over you. 34 I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out. 35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will plead My case with you face to face. 36 Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you,' says the Lord GOD. 37 'I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; 38 I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD.'" Ezekiel 20:33-38

    Verses 37-38 describe a judgment, not of "all the nations," but specifically of those Israelites which had just been brought back from "the countries where" they had been "scattered" in verses 34-35. And the last chapter of Isaiah very clearly teaches that this will take place after Messiah has returned, not before.

    Again, there is another judgment which is called "the judgment seat of Christ," which is mentioned in Romans 14:8-13 and 2 Corinthians 5:9-10 and described in 1 Corinthians 4:3-5. At the time of this judgment, we are explicitly told that everyone (ἕκαστω in the Greek text, which literally translates "as to-each") will have praise from God. This cannot even possibly be the same judgment one in which some are condemned and some rewarded.

    And finally the judgment of the dead which is described in Revelation 20:1-15 is clearly described as taking place after the end of the earthly kingdom, which is explicitly stated to be after the resurrection of the righteous.

    This judgment is indeed final, and indeed has eternal consequences, for all those judged at this time. But you have zero scriptural basis for assuming either that this is "the final" judgment, or for assuming that there is only one such judgment.

    You are the one that is willfully ignoring a very large number of explicitly stated scriptures, in a desperate attempt to make your amil system work. For although Revelation 20 is the only passage that states the length of time the future earthly kingdom will last, (And it says, six times over, that it will last a thousand years,) many other scriptures describe this future earthly kingdom. Even if you could possibly be correct in claiming that the term "a thousand years," was only typical of a very long time, this would not in any way eliminate the conclusive nature of the very many scriptures that explicitly say that when the long awaited Messiah finally comes, He will set up a kingdom on this earth, with a human ruler sitting on a throne in Jerusalem, and with a system of worship that is neither like that under the law of Moses or like that we have today.

    All this is explicitly stated, and this is just a very small fraction of the very many explicit statements abut this future earthly kingdom. Aside from simple ignorance of the scriptures, which I doubt that you could plead, denying that God will actually keep the very many explicitly stated promises He made, is nothing but rank unbelief.
     
  12. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    2Ti 4:1  I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 




    Joh 5:27  And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 

    Joh 5:28  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 

    Joh 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 


    Joh 5:30  I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. 



    Rev 11:18  And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 


    We find both the nations and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18, right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.

    This one verse kills the premill doctrine, not to mention the other verses found above.



    It is completely illogical for a pretrib proponent to claim that the "first resurrection" in Revelation chapter 20 is the first bodily resurrection.
    You cannot have it both ways.


    The problems disappear once we realize that the "first resurrection" in Revelation 20 is the same first resurrection found in John chapter 5 (John 5:24) and that the word "thousand" is used as it is in Psalm 50:10.

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    Last edited: Nov 13, 2017
  13. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    The wrath is the Judgement. In the great white throne judgement those who are not in the book of life will suffer the wrath of God, but that those that are, will not suffer wrath.
     
  14. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    A whole lot of avoiding the direct subject again :)

    Matthew 25:31-46 shows the return of Jesus Christ with the angels, the nations are gathered before the throne for judgment.

    In verses 34 the kingdom is presented to the righteous.

    In verse 46 we see this is the "Final Judgment" as the righteous enter "Eternal Life" into the "Eternal Life Kingdom"

    Writer you need to respond to the fact of "Eternal" seen in verse 46, your earthly Millennial Kingdom Disappears in the word "Eternal", how long will you run in denial of this fact :)

    "Eternal Life" In The "Eternal Kingdom"
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2017
  15. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    This clever dodge does not get rid of the hundreds of explicitly stated prophecies about a coming kingdom on this earth, not in heaven.
     
  16. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    The saints will be raised on the last day, Jesus said:
    • John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
    • John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    • John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    • John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
    He must have taught that to his disciples because
    • John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

    There can only be one last day and that is also the day of Judgement:
    • John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
     
  17. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    Your in error, Final judgment takes place at the return of Jesus Christ with the angels, as Matthew 25:31-46 describes,as in verses 46 the eternal judgment of the righteous and wicked are seen "Eternal Life", "Eternal Punishment" Very Simple And Easy To Understand. :)
     
  18. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    There is no future kingdom "On This Existing Earth" presented in the scripture as you claim.

    However there will be a New Creation in the New Heaven, Earth, And Jerusalem, After This Earth Is Dissolved By The Lords Fire In Judgment 2 Peter 3:10-13
     
  19. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    This is absolutely false. I have posted many scriptures, and could post many more, that explicitly say this kingdom will indeed take place on this earth. And you and the other amils keep posting scriptures that you interpret to mean this cannot happen.

    The difference is, that the scriptures I post explicitly say these things will happen, and not even one of the scriptures you people keep posting actually says what you claim it means.
     
  20. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    A Jewish kingdom with "memorial" animal sacrifices, where we exist like supermen in immortal bodies while mortals continue to live in a world where sin and death remain.

    A place where these mortals will live to great age, but some will still die.
    A place where the Son of God, who defeated sin and death at Calvary, will still have to preside over funeral services.


    A place where the Son of God, who said He is the temple of God, must dwell in a temple made with human hands.

    A place where we help Christ teach the mortals and do such a tremendous job that they rebel against Christ and us supermen at the end of this 1,000 years of teaching.

    Does it sound like a scene from one of Tim LaHaye's "Left Behind" movies?




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