Debating the Existence of the Pre-Trib Rapture

[Truth7t7]

You are incorrect in saying that I disregarded your response. I answered it by pointing out that I had alrready treated that objection in my post to which you were responding. So in truth, you are the one that disregarded my response. But that is a detail.

Your alleged "facts" are interpretations, not facts. And your claim that Justyn Martyr, Irenaeus, and Hippolytus, and all the other early Christian writers were amillennial is exactly the opposite of the truth.

The earliest Christian commentator on Bible prophecy known to modern scholars was Papias, who is thought to have written between 110 and 140 A. D. All of his writings have been lost, but Eusebius said concerning him:

“The same writer gives also other accounts which he says came to him through unwritten tradition, certain strange parables and teachings of the Saviour, and some other more mythical things. To these belong his statement that there will be a period of some thousand years after the resurrection of the dead, and that the kingdom of Christ will be set up in material form on this very earth.” (“The Church History,” by Eusebius, book III, chapter XXXIX, sections 12-13.)

The next Christian commentator on prophecy that we know about was Justyn, who is called Justin Martyr, because he died as a martyr. He said:

“And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place.” (“Dialogue With Trypho,” by Justin Martyr, chapter LXXXI.)

Again, Justyn said:

“And Trypho to this replied, ‘I remarked to you sir, that you are very anxious to be safe in all respects, since you cling to the Scriptures. But tell me, do you really admit that this place, Jerusalem, shall be rebuilt; and do you expect your people to be gathered together, and made joyful with Christ and the patriarchs, and the prophets, both the men of our nation, and other proselytes who joined them before your Christ came? Or have you given way, and admitted this in order to have the appearance of worsting us in the controversies?’
“Then I answered, ‘I am not so miserable a fellow, Trypho, as to say one thing and think another. I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion, and [believe] that such will take place..." ((Dialogue with Tyrpho, by Justin Martyr, chapter LXXX.)

The next one we know about was Irenaeus, who said concerning “the resurrection of the just:”

“It behoves the righteous first to receive the promise of the inheritance which God promised to the fathers, and to reign in it, when they rise again to behold God in this creation which is renovated, and that the judgment should take place afterwards. For it is just that in that very creation in which they toiled or were afflicted, being proved in every way by suffering, they should receive the reward of their suffering; and that in the creation in which they were slain because of their love to God, in that they should be revived again; and that in the creation in which they endured servitude, in that they should reign.” (“Against Heresies,” by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXXII, section 1.)

And in another place, Irenaeus said:

“‘And he will cause a mark [to be put] in the forehead and in the right hand, that no one may be able to buy or sell, unless he who has the mark of the name of the beast or the number of his name; and the number is six hundred and sixty-six,’ that is, six times a hundred, six times ten, and six units. [He gives this] as a summing up of the whole of that apostasy which has taken place during six thousand years.
“For in as many days as this world was made, in so many thousand years shall it be concluded. And for this reason the Scripture says: ‘Thus the heaven and the earth were finished, and all their adornment. And God brought to a conclusion upon the sixth day the works that He had made; and God rested upon the seventh day from all His works.’This is an account of the things formerly created, as also it is a prophecy of what is to come. For the day of the Lord is as a thousand years; and in six days created things were completed: it is evident, therefore, that they will come to an end at the sixth thousand year.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXVII, sections 2-3)

Tertullian said:

“But we do confess that a kingdom is promised to us upon the earth, although before heaven, only in another state of existence; inasmuch as it will be after the resurrection for a thousand years in the divinely-built city of Jerusalem... We say that this city has been provided by God for receiving the saints on their resurrection, and refreshing them with the abundance of all really spiritual blessings, as a recompense for those which in the world we have either despised or lost; since it is both just and God-worthy that His servants should have their joy in the place where they have also suffered affliction for His name's sake... After its thousand years are over, within which period is completed the resurrection of the saints, who rise sooner or later according to their deserts there will ensue the destruction of the world and the conflagration of all things at the judgment:” (“Against Maricon,” by Tertullian, book III, chapter XXV.)

Hippolytus said:

"And so it is absolutely necessary for six-thousand years to be fulfilled, so that the Sabbath rest may come, the holy day, in which God rested from all his works which he began to do. The Sabbath is a model and an image of the coming kingdom of the saints, when the saints shall coreign with Christ, when he arrives from heaven, as also John in his Apocalypse describes. For a day of the Lord is as a thousand years. And so since in six days God made all things, it is necessary for six thousand years to be fulfilled. For they are not yet fulfilled, as John says, ‘Five have fallen, but one is,’ such is the sixth millennium, ‘the other has not yet come,’ saying ‘the other’ he describes the seventh millenniumnin which there shall be rest.” (“Commentary on Daniel,” by Hippolytus, 23.4-23.6.)

Commodianus said “Of the First Ressurection:”

“They shall come also who overcame cruel martyrdom under Antichrist, and they themselves live for the whole time, and receive blessings because they have suffered evil things; and they themselves marrying, beget for a thousand years. There are prepared all the revenues of the earth, because the earth renewed without end pours forth abundantly... he who is evil is hedged up in torment, for the sake of the nourishment of the righteous. But from the thousand years God will destroy all those evils.” (“The Instructions of Commodianus,” by Commodianus, chapter 24.)

Lactantius, in speaking of “the Almighty,” said:

“But He, when He shall have destroyed unrighteousness, and executed His great judgment, and shall have recalled to life the righteous, who have lived from the beginning, will be engaged among men a thousand years, and will rule them with most just command... Then they who shall be alive in their bodies shall not die, but during those thousand years shall produce an infinite multitude, and their offspring shall be holy, and beloved by God; but they who shall be raised from the dead shall preside over the living as judges... About the same time also the prince of the devils, who is the contriver of all evils, shall be bound with chains, and shall be imprisoned during the thousand years of the heavenly rule in which righteousness shall reign in the world, so that he may contrive no evil against the people of God.” (“The DivineInstitutes,” by Lactantius, chapter 72.)

And the "Epistle of Barnabas," whose true author and dat are not known with certainty, said:

“The Sabbath is mentioned at the beginning of the creation [thus]: ‘And God made in six days the works of His hands, and made an end on the seventh day, and rested on it, and sanctified it.’Attend, my children, to the meaning of this expression, ‘He finished in six days.’ This implieth that the Lord will finish all things in six thousand years, for a day is with Him a thousand years. And He Himself testifieth, will be as a thousand years. Therefore, my children, in six days, that is, in six thousand years, all things will be finished. ‘And He rested on the seventh day.’ This meaneth: when His Son, coming [again], shall destroy the time of the wicked man, and judge the ungodly, and change the-sun, and the moon, and the stars, then shall He truly rest on the seventh day. Moreover, He says, ‘Thou shalt sanctify it with pure hands and a pure heart.’ If, therefore, any one can now sanctify the day which God hath sanctified, except he is pure in heart in all things, Behold, therefore: certainly then one properly resting sanctifies it, when we ourselves, having received the promise, wickedness no longer existing, and all things having been made new by the Lord, shall be able to work righteousness. Then we shall be able to sanctify it, having been first sanctified ourselves.” (Epistle of Barnabas, chapter XV)

In addition to these, Jerome said that Apollinaris follows “this view,” (“Lives of Illustrious Men,” by Jerome, chapter XVIII.) and Dionysius said many thought that “a certain composition by Nepos,” “demonstrated incontestably that there will be a (temporal) reign of Christ upon the earth.” In the following paragraph Dionysius added that “in the Arsinoitic prefecture... this doctrine was current long ago, and caused such division, that schisms and apostasies took place in whole churches.” (“On the Promises,” by Dionysius, part 1, paragraphs 1 and 2.)

This last statement is proof that the doctrine of a temporal “reign of Christ upon the earth” was not only taught, but widely circulated, “long” before the mid third century. (Dionysius is thought to have been Bishop of Alexandria from about 247-265.)

Justin Martyr Saw The Christian Present On Earth, As The Antichrist Was Going To Do "Unlawful Deeds On The Earth, "AGAINST US THE CHRISTIANS" "Fact"!

Justin Martyr 100-165AD

Dialogue With Trypho The Jew, (Chapter 110)


O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonoured, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, who, having learned the true worship of God from the law, and the word which went forth from Jerusalem by means of the apostles of Jesus, have fled for safety to the God of Jacob and God of Israel;

Dialogue with Trypho (Chapter 110)

Iranaeus Saw The Church Present On Earth, To See The Antichrist Revealed, "FACT"!

Irenaeus of Lyons, 202AD

Irenaeus, Against Heresies Book V, Chapter XXV

Chapter XXV.-The Fraud, Pride, and Tyrannical Kingdom of Antichrist, as Described by Daniel and Paul.

1. And not only by the particulars already mentioned, but also by means of the events which shall occur in the time of Antichrist is it shown that he, being an apostate and a robber, is anxious to be adored as God; and that, although a mere slave, he wishes himself to be proclaimed as a king. For he (Antichrist) being endued with all the power of the devil, shall come, not as a righteous king, nor as a legitimate king, [i.e., one] in subjection to God, but an impious, unjust, and lawless one; as an apostate, iniquitous and murderous; as a robber, concentrating in himself [all] satanic apostasy, and setting aside idols to persuade [men] that he himself is God, raising up himself as the only idol, having in himself the multifarious errors of the other idols. This he does, in order that they who do [now] worship the devil by means of many abominations, may serve himself by this one idol, of whom the apostle thus speaks in the second Epistle to the Thessalonians: "Unless there shall come a failing away first, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself as if he were God." The apostle therefore clearly points out his apostasy, and that he is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped-that is, above every idol-for these are indeed so called by men, but are not [really] gods; and that he will endeavour in a tyrannical manner to set himself forth as God.

2. Moreover, he (the apostle) has also pointed out this which I have shown in many ways, that the temple in Jerusalem was made by the direction of the true God. For the apostle himself, speaking in his own person, distinctly called it the temple of God. Now I have shown in the third book, that no one is termed God by the apostles when speaking for themselves, except Him who truly is God, the Father of our Lord, by whose directions the temple which is at Jerusalem was constructed for those purposes which I have already mentioned; in which [temple] the enemy shall sit, endeavouring to show himself as Christ, as the Lord also declares: "But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, which has been spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand), then let those who are in Judea flee into the mountains; and he who is upon the house-top, let him not come down to take anything out of his house: for there shall then be great hardship, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall be."

Hippolytus Of Rome Also Saw The Church Present During The Tribulation, "He Shal,l Stir mUp Tribulation And Persecution Againbst The Saints" Fact!

HIPPOLYTUS OF ROME 170-235AD

TREATISE ON CHRIST AND ANTICHRIST.

5) But as time now presses for the consideration of the question immediately in hand, and as what has been already said in the introduction with regard to the glory of God, may suffice, it is proper that we take the Holy Scriptures themselves in hand, and find out from them what, and of what manner, the coming of Antichrist is; on what occasion and at what time that implores one shall be revealed; and whence and from what I tribe (he shall come); and what his name is, which is indicated by the number in the Scripture; and how he shall work error among the people, gathering them from the ends of the earth; and (how) he shall stir up tribulation and persecution against the saints; and how he shall glorify himself as God; and what his end shall be; and how the sudden appearing of the Lord shall be revealed froth heaven; and what the conflagration of the whole world shall be; and what the glorious and heavenly kingdom of the saints is to be, when they reign together with Christ; and what the punishment of the wicked by fire.

64) These things, then, being to come to pass, beloved, and the one week being divided into two parts, and the abomination of desolation being manifested then, and the two prophets and forerunners of the Lord having finished their course, and the whole world finally approaching the consummation, what remains but the coming of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ from heaven, for whom we have looked in hope? who shall bring the conflagration and just judgment upon all who have refused to believe on Him.

The Early Apostolic Church Fathers Saw The Church Present In The Great Tribulation, To See The Antichrist Revealed, Darby & Scofield's Secret Rapture Is Unseen, "Fact"!

Justin Martyr Associated The Eternal Tree Of Life With The Thousand Years, Also The New Heaven And Earth.

Justin Martyr 100-165AD, Dialogue With Trypho The Jew

CHAPTER LXXXI -- HE ENDEAVOURS TO PROVE THIS OPINION FROM ISAIAH AND THE APOCALYPSE.

"For Isaiah spake thus concerning this space of a thousand years: 'For there shall be the new heaven and the new earth, and the former shall not be remembered, or come into their heart; but they shall find joy and gladness in it, which things I create. For, Behold, I make Jerusalem a rejoicing, and My people a joy; and I shall rejoice over Jerusalem, and be glad over My I people. And the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, or the voice of crying. And there shall be no more there a person of immature years, or an old man who shall not fulfil his days. For the young man shall be an hundred years old; but the sinner who dies an hundred years old, he shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and shall themselves inhabit them; and they shall plant vines, and shall themselves eat the produce of them, and drink the wine. They shall not build, and others inhabit; they shall not plant, and others eat. For according to the days of the tree of life shall be the days of my people; the works of their toil shall abound. Mine elect shall not toil fruitlessly, or beget children to be cursed; for they shall be a seed righteous and blessed by the Lord, and their offspring with them. And it shall come to pass, that before they call I will hear; while they are still speaking, I shall say, What is it? Then shall the wolves and the lambs feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox; but the serpent[shall eat] earth as bread. They shall not hurt or maltreat each other on the holy mountain, i saith the Lord.' Now we have understood that the expression used among these words, 'According to the days of the tree[of life] shall be the days of my people; the works of their toil shall abound' obscurely predicts a thousand years. For as Adam was told that in the nay fie ate of the tree he would die, we know that he did not complete a thousand years. We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, 'The day of the Lord is as a thousand years,' is connected with this subject. And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place. Just as our Lord also said, 'They shall neither marry nor be given in marriage, but shall be equal to the angels, the children of the God of the resurrection.'

Truth7t7

 

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[Biblewriter]

Justin Martyr Saw The Christian Present On Earth, As The Antichrist Was Going To Do "Unlawful Deeds On The Earth, "AGAINST US THE CHRISTIANS" "Fact"!

Justin Martyr 100-165AD

Dialogue With Trypho The Jew, (Chapter 32 & 110)

Christ ascended to heaven, after He rose again from the dead, the times now running on to their consummation; and he whom Daniel foretells would have dominion for a time, and times, and an half, is even already at the door, about to speak blasphemous and daring things against the Most High. But you, being ignorant of how long he will have dominion, hold another opinion.

Dialogue with Trypho (Chapter 32)

O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonoured, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, who, having learned the true worship of God from the law, and the word which went forth from Jerusalem by means of the apostles of Jesus, have fled for safety to the God of Jacob and God of Israel;

Dialogue with Trypho (Chapter 110)

Iranaeus Saw The Church Present On Earth, To See The Antichrist Revealed, "FACT"!

Irenaeus of Lyons, 202AD

Irenaeus, Against Heresies Book V, Chapter XXV

Chapter XXV.-The Fraud, Pride, and Tyrannical Kingdom of Antichrist, as Described by Daniel and Paul.

1. And not only by the particulars already mentioned, but also by means of the events which shall occur in the time of Antichrist is it shown that he, being an apostate and a robber, is anxious to be adored as God; and that, although a mere slave, he wishes himself to be proclaimed as a king. For he (Antichrist) being endued with all the power of the devil, shall come, not as a righteous king, nor as a legitimate king, [i.e., one] in subjection to God, but an impious, unjust, and lawless one; as an apostate, iniquitous and murderous; as a robber, concentrating in himself [all] satanic apostasy, and setting aside idols to persuade [men] that he himself is God, raising up himself as the only idol, having in himself the multifarious errors of the other idols. This he does, in order that they who do [now] worship the devil by means of many abominations, may serve himself by this one idol, of whom the apostle thus speaks in the second Epistle to the Thessalonians: "Unless there shall come a failing away first, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself as if he were God." The apostle therefore clearly points out his apostasy, and that he is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped-that is, above every idol-for these are indeed so called by men, but are not [really] gods; and that he will endeavour in a tyrannical manner to set himself forth as God.

2. Moreover, he (the apostle) has also pointed out this which I have shown in many ways, that the temple in Jerusalem was made by the direction of the true God. For the apostle himself, speaking in his own person, distinctly called it the temple of God. Now I have shown in the third book, that no one is termed God by the apostles when speaking for themselves, except Him who truly is God, the Father of our Lord, by whose directions the temple which is at Jerusalem was constructed for those purposes which I have already mentioned; in which [temple] the enemy shall sit, endeavouring to show himself as Christ, as the Lord also declares: "But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, which has been spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand), then let those who are in Judea flee into the mountains; and he who is upon the house-top, let him not come down to take anything out of his house: for there shall then be great hardship, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall be."

Hippolytus Of Rome Also Saw The Church Present During The Tribulation, "He Shal,l Stir mUp Tribulation And Persecution Againbst The Saints" Fact!

HIPPOLYTUS OF ROME 170-235AD

TREATISE ON CHRIST AND ANTICHRIST.

5) But as time now presses for the consideration of the question immediately in hand, and as what has been already said in the introduction with regard to the glory of God, may suffice, it is proper that we take the Holy Scriptures themselves in hand, and find out from them what, and of what manner, the coming of Antichrist is; on what occasion and at what time that implores one shall be revealed; and whence and from what I tribe (he shall come); and what his name is, which is indicated by the number in the Scripture; and how he shall work error among the people, gathering them from the ends of the earth; and (how) he shall stir up tribulation and persecution against the saints; and how he shall glorify himself as God; and what his end shall be; and how the sudden appearing of the Lord shall be revealed froth heaven; and what the conflagration of the whole world shall be; and what the glorious and heavenly kingdom of the saints is to be, when they reign together with Christ; and what the punishment of the wicked by fire.

64) These things, then, being to come to pass, beloved, and the one week being divided into two parts, and the abomination of desolation being manifested then, and the two prophets and forerunners of the Lord having finished their course, and the whole world finally approaching the consummation, what remains but the coming of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ from heaven, for whom we have looked in hope? who shall bring the conflagration and just judgment upon all who have refused to believe on Him.

The Early Apostolic Church Fathers Saw The Church Present In The Great Tribulation, To See The Antichrist Revealed, Darby & Scofield's Secret Rapture Is Unseen, "Fact"!
Truth7t7

In my post on Irenaeus, I explained what Irenaeus was actually saying, by a thorough analysis of ALL he said on the subject, not of part of it. You obviously did not even bother to read this, for you keep ignoring it and continue to post your erroneous information. I have not made a similar thorough analysis of what was said by the other ancient writers you have quoted.

But you are using a familiar dodge, when you receive HARD PROOF that what you have said is incorrect, you just ignore that and bring up a new subject.

You claimed that ALL the ancient writers were amillennial, and I PROVED that they were all chilists.

 

[keras]

You claimed that ALL the ancient writers were amillennial, and I PROVED that they were all chilists.

This argument about what the Early Church leaders wrote, is nonsense. As though they were Apostles or Prophets, no: they were just good men, who wrote what they believed.
Next thing you will be promoting as gospel, the writings of Calvin, Luther, and all the people who have filled libraries and made a mint from their own interpretation of what will happen, like Tim La Haye and John Hagee.
Not one of them since John the Revelator have all the truth, so using them to prove a theory, is just a waste of space. ONLY the Bible has the truth, but as the truth doesn't suit some people, then we see all these screeds of mis information. It's just another example of the father of lies leading people down the wrong path.

 

[keras]

Future second advent, resurrection, final Judgment book of life open, eternity begins for all, lake fire wicked, eternal kingdom righteous?

do you agree with the this?

No.
The Millennium reign of Jesus comes between Jesus' Return and the GWT Judgement.
There is no resurrection to immortality until then. Only the martyrs who will be killed during the Great Tribulation are brought back to life at the Return, Revelation 20:4 They may die again, but the second death has no power over them. Revelation 20:6

 

[seventysevens]

The marriage plan based on what Gods Word shows us the what is acceptable unto God concerning marriage and is laid out in scripture what is acceptable as even those who will be with Christ for eternity is called the Bride of Christ. The marriage process for Israel is patterned in line with what Gods Word; if people can read with an open mind and put aside your bias for your post trib view. Notice that the process for the ancient thousands of years old marriage is almost a perfect match to the pre trib harpazo. With this nearly identical match of the process of thousands of years ago .

Now this is Not meant to prove anything cept to show the parallels of pre trib view matches the marriage process and no other rapture view is even close


God tells us that we should remain married until death , which shows the extreme high level of importance that marriage is unto God Almighty. In fact marriage is so highly regarded by God that he calls us His Bride and He is the Bridegroom. There will be an extremely high level of importance on the event called the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
It was the culture custom of the Jewish people that when a man wanted a woman to be his bride he had to pay a price for her hand in marriage.
A man had to buy/purchase/pay a ransom sum for his bride in order to marry her .(Jesus paid the ransom for you whom is called His bride) A man known as Jacob who God had given the name of Israel who is the man that the nation Israel is named after. When Jacob met Rachel he agreed to pay the price of working labor to her father for the term of 7 Years and then when Lavin her father deceived him as at the wedding he discovered it was not Rachel but her sister because of the veil on the bride.
Jacob truly loved Rachel and agreed to work another 7 Years of labor to pay for the price to have Rachel as his bride . Notice the 7 years theme

Jacob the bridegroom had to wait 7 years before he could have his bride living with him as his wife ..study what a Dowry price is regarding marriage.
The following is from an email I received a few years ago written by a biblical scholar and author and I copied the contents but noticed afterward I did not copy his name , so credit to him

Jesus made the following comforting promise:

Let not your heart be troubled: you believe in God, Believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there you may be also. (John 14:1-3.)

The first major step in a Jewish marriage was betrothal.


1. Betrothal involved the establishment of a marriage covenant. By Jesus' time it was usual for such a covenant to be established as the result of the prospective bridegroom taking the initiative.
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2. The prospective bridegroom would travel from his father's house to the home of the prospective bride. There he would negotiate with the father of the young woman to determine the price (mohar) that he must pay to purchase his bride.
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3. Once the bridegroom paid the purchase price, the marriage covenant was thereby established, and the young man and woman were regarded to be husband and wife.
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4. From that moment on the bride was declared to be consecrated or sanctified, set apart exclusively for her bridegroom.
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5. As a symbol of the covenant relationship that had been established, the groom and bride would drink from a cup of wine over which a betrothal benediction had been pronounced.
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6. After the marriage covenant had been established, the groom would leave the home of the bride and return to his father's house. There he would remain separate from his bride for a period of twelve months.
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7. This period of separation afforded the bride time to gather her trousseau and to prepare for married life.
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8. The groom occupied himself with the preparation of living accommodations in his father's house to which he could bring his bride. At the end of the period of separation the groom would come to take his bride to live with him. The taking of the bride usually took place at night. The groom, best man and other male escorts would leave the groom's father's house and conduct a torch light procession to the home of the bride.
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9. Although the bride was expecting her groom to come for her, she did not know the exact time of his coming.
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10. As a result the groom's arrival would be Preceded By a Shout.
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11. This shout would forewarn the bride to be prepared for the coming of the groom. After the groom received his bride together with her female attendants, the enlarged wedding party would Return From the bride's home to the Groom's Father's House.
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12. Upon arrival there the wedding party would find that the wedding guests had assembled already. Shortly after arrival the bride and groom would be escorted by the other members of the wedding party to the bridal chamber (huppah). Prior to entering the chamber the bride remained veiled so that no one could see her face.
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13. While the groomsmen and bridesmaids would wait outside, the bride and groom would enter the bridal chamber alone. There in the privacy of that place they would enter into physical union for the first time, thereby consummating the marriage that had been covenanted earlier.
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14. After the marriage was consummated, the groom would announce the consummation to the other members of the wedding party waiting outside the chamber (John 3:29). These people would pass on the news of the marital union to the wedding guests.
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15. Upon receiving this good news the wedding guests would feast and make merry for the next seven(7) days.
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16. During the seven(7) days of the wedding festivities, which were sometimes called "the seven(7) days of the huppah," the Bride Remained Hidden in the bridal chamber.
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17. At the conclusion of these seven(7) days the groom would bring his bride out of the bridal chamber, now with her veil removed, so that all could see who his bride was.
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The Examination of this
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Earlier it was stated that in His promise in John 14 Jesus drew an analogy from Jewish marriage customs in biblical times. Now that the marriage customs have been considered, it is essential that the analogy be examined. In what ways was Jesus' promise analogous with Jewish marriage customs? In the examination of the analogy the first thing that should be noted is the fact that the Scriptures regard the Church to be the Bride of Christ (Eph. 5:22-23). In addition, just as the Jewish bridegroom took the initiative in marriage by leaving his father's house and traveling to the home of the prospective bride, so Jesus left His Father's house in heaven and traveled to earth, the home of His prospective Church, over 1900 years ago.
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In the same manner as the Jewish bridegroom came to the bride's home for the purpose of obtaining her through the establishment of a marriage covenant, so Jesus came to earth for the purpose of obtaining the Church through the establishment of a covenant
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On the same night in which Jesus made His promise in John 14 He instituted communion. As He passed the cup of wine to His disciples, He said: "This cup is the new covenant in my blood" (1 Cor. 11:25). This was His way of saying that He would establish a new covenant through the shedding of His blood on the cross.
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Parallel to the custom of the Jewish groom paying a price to purchase his bride, Jesus paid a price to purchase His bride, the Church. The price that He paid was His own life blood. It was because of this purchase price that Paul wrote the following to members of the Church: "know ye not that...ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and your spirit, which are God's" (1 Cor. 6:19-20).
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Analogous with the Jewish bride being declared to be sanctified or set apart exclusively for her groom once the marriage covenant was established, the Church has been declared to be sanctified or set apart exclusively for Christ (Eph. 5:25-27; 1Cor. 1:2; 6:11; Heb. 10:10; 13:12).
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In the same way that a cup of wine served as a symbol of the marriage covenant through which the Jewish groom obtained his bride, so the cup of communion serves as the symbol of the covenant through which Christ has obtained the Church (1 Cor. 11:25).
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Just as the Jewish groom left the home of his bride and returned to his father's house after the marriage covenant had been established, so Jesus left the earth, the home of the Church, and returned to His Father's house in heaven after He had established the new covenant and risen from the dead (John 6:62; 20:17).
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Corresponding with the period of separation between the Jewish groom and bride, Christ has remained separate from the Church for over 1900 years. The Church is now living in that period of separation.
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Parallel to the custom of the Jewish groom preparing living accommodations for his bride in his father's house during the time of separation, Christ has been preparing living accommodations for the Church in His Father's house in heaven during His separation from His Bride (John 14:2).
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In the same manner as the Jewish groom came to take his bride to live with him at the end of the period of separation, so Christ will come to take His Church to live with Him at the end of His period of separation from the Church (John 14:3).
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Just as the taking of the Jewish bride was accomplished by a procession of the groom and male escorts from the groom's father's house to the home of the bride, so the taking of the Church will be accomplished by a procession of Christ and an angelic escort from Christ's Father's house in heaven to the home of the Church (1 Thess. 4:16).
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Analogous with the Jewish bride not knowing the exact time of the groom's coming for her, the Church does not know the exact time of Christ's coming for her.
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In the same way that the Jewish groom's arrival was preceded by a shout, so Christ's arrival to take the Church will be preceded by a shout (1 Thess. 4:16).
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Similar to the Jewish bride's return with the groom to his father's house after her departure from her home, the Church will return with Christ to His Father's house in heaven after she is snatched from the earth to meet Him in the air (1 Thess. 4:17; John 14:2-3).
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In the same manner as the Jewish wedding party found wedding guests assembled in the groom's father's house when they arrived, so Christ and the Church will find the souls of Old Testament saints assembled in heaven when they arrive. These souls will serve as the wedding guests.
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Parallel to the custom of the Jewish groom and bride entering into physical union after their arrival at the groom's father's house, thereby consummating the marriage that had been covenanted earlier, Christ and the Church will experience spiritual union after their arrival at His Father's house in heaven, thereby consummating their relationship that had been covenanted earlier.
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Corresponding with the Jewish bride remaining hidden in the bridal chamber for a period of seven(7) days after arrival at the groom's father's house, the Church will remain hidden for a period of seven(7) after arrival at Christ's Father's house in heaven. While the seven(7) year Tribulation Period is taking place on the earth, the Church will be in heaven totally hidden from the sight of those living on the earth.
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Just as the Jewish groom brought his bride out of the bridal chamber at the conclusion of the seven(7) days with her veil removed, so that all could see who his bride was, so Christ will bring His Church out of heaven in His Second Coming at the conclusion of the seven(7) year Tribulation Period in full view of all who are alive, so that all can see who the true church is (Col. 3:4).
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During the time of separation between the establishment of the marriage covenant and the coming of the
bridegroom to take his bride, it was possible for the Jewish bride to commit adultery by giving herself to another man. In like manner it is possible for believers today to commit spiritual adultery against Christ before He returns to take His Church.

Paul expressed concern over this possibility when he wrote the following to Christians:
"For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ" (2 Cor.11:2-3).

 

[Truth7t7]

In my post on Irenaeus, I explained what Irenaeus was actually saying, by a thorough analysis of ALL he said on the subject, not of part of it. You obviously did not even bother to read this, for you keep ignoring it and continue to post your erroneous information. I have not made a similar thorough analysis of what was said by the other ancient writers you have quoted.

But you are using a familiar dodge, when you receive HARD PROOF that what you have said is incorrect, you just ignore that and bring up a new subject.

You claimed that ALL the ancient writers were amillennial, and I PROVED that they were all chilists.

Im responding via my cell phone, I will respon briefly, unable to copy/paste

In my previous citation of Hippolytus he saw the second advent, conflagration that is the whole world burned up, the heavenly kingdom for the saints, and the wicked punished by the eternal fire.

"The Final Judgment" Eternity!

Hippo didnt see your literal earthly millennial kingdom

 

[Truth7t7]

No.
The Millennium reign of Jesus comes between Jesus' Return and the GWT Judgement.
There is no resurrection to immortality until then. Only the martyrs who will be killed during the Great Tribulation are brought back to life at the Return, Revelation 20:4 They may die again, but the second death has no power over them. Revelation 20:6

When Jesus returns, its the final judgment, Matthew 25:31-46, verse 31 Jesus returns with the Holy angels, verse 46 eternal punishment for the wicked, eternal life for the righteous?

 

[keras]

When Jesus returns, its the final judgment, Matthew 25:31-46, verse 31 Jesus returns with the Holy angels, verse 46 eternal punishment for the wicked, eternal life for the righteous?

That passage does seem like Judgement is at the Return, but we know from other prophesies, mainly Revelation, that the only judgement/punishment at His Return is the destruction of the Anti-Christs army and his chaining up.
Eternal life is conferred to those whose names are written in the book of Life, which is only opened at the GWT Judgement, after the Millennium.

 

[Truth7t7]

That passage does seem like Judgement is at the Return, but we know from other prophesies, mainly Revelation, that the only judgement/punishment at His Return is the destruction of the Anti-Christs army and his chaining up.
Eternal life is conferred to those whose names are written in the book of Life, which is only opened at the GWT Judgement, after the Millennium.

Matthew 25:31-46 is a parallel teaching of the GWT judgment seen in Revelation 20:11-15

verse 31-32, Jesus retutns with the holy angels in his glory, sits on the throne, all nations before him, verse 46 the final judgment is seen, wicked to eternal punishment, the righteous to eternal life, "Simple"

Keras you can deny this fact of scripture, very clear and simple.

There is one time when eternal life will be given as seen in verse 46, at the GWT judgment, when the book of life is open.

You choose to deny this truth, because it disproves your millennial kingdom.

At the return of Jesus Christ, the Final GWT judgment takes place, plain and simple

Matthew 25:46
"And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life."

"The Eternal Kingdom"!

 

[jgr]

You claimed that ALL the ancient writers were amillennial, and I PROVED that they were all chilists.

The word is "chiliasts".

Justin Martyr was one, but he acknowledged that "many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise". He was referring to amils. His words are a condemnation of contemporary dispensationalism's frequent characterizations of amillenialism as heresy.

 

[keras]

Matthew 25:31-46 is a parallel teaching of the GWT judgment.

verse 31, Jesus retutns with the holy angels in his glory, sits on the throne, all nations before him, verse 46 the final judgment is seen, wicked to eternal punishment, the righteous to eternal life, Simple"

Keras you can deny this fact of scripture, very clear and simple.

There is one time when eternal life will be given as seen in verse 46, at the GWT judgment, when the book of life is open.

You choose to deny this truth, because it disproves your millennial kingdom.

At the return of Jesus Christ, the Final GWT judgment takes place, plain and simple

Matthew 25:46
"And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life."

"The Eternal Kingdom"!

I agree that Matthew 25:31-36 is about the GWT Judgement.
But the plain words and sequence of Revelation 20 places the GWT AFTER the 1000 year reign of Jesus and His saints.
Why deny the provable fact of the last 1000 years being the 'Sabbath' of the 7000 years allotted to mankind?

 

[Truth7t7]

I agree that Matthew 25:31-3angels, bout the GWT Judgement.
But the plain words and sequence of Revelation 20 places the GWT AFTER the 1000 year reign of Jesus and His saints.
Why deny the provable fact of the last 1000 years being the 'Sabbath' of the 7000 years allotted to mankind?

Matthew 25:31-46 clearly teaches that Jesus Christ will come with the holy angels "Second Advent", at this time the nations will be gathered for the "Final Judgment", verse 46 eternal punishment, eternal life.

You will closely note this does not include a temporary earthly 1000 year kingdom to follow, eternity has started, there is no chronological order in the book of revelation, they are parallel teachings, Revelation 20:11-15

Once again, Jesus returns with holy angels "Second Advent", Nations are gathered for judgment, eternal punishment, eternal life.

You can't deny verse 46, eternal judgment asthe book of life is open, GWT judgment at the "Second Advent" no millennial kingdom on earth to follow, "Eternal Kingdom"

Will you continue to claim a 1000 year kingdom follows the "Second Advent" seen, Jesus will come with all the angels?

Keras your millennial kingdom is gone, read it again and again.

 

[Biblewriter]

This argument about what the Early Church leaders wrote, is nonsense. As though they were Apostles or Prophets, no: they were just good men, who wrote what they believed.
Next thing you will be promoting as gospel, the writings of Calvin, Luther, and all the people who have filled libraries and made a mint from their own interpretation of what will happen, like Tim La Haye and John Hagee.
Not one of them since John the Revelator have all the truth, so using them to prove a theory, is just a waste of space. ONLY the Bible has the truth, but as the truth doesn't suit some people, then we see all these screeds of mis information. It's just another example of the father of lies leading people down the wrong path.

It may surprise you to know that I completely agree with you, that what these men said is actually meaningless. The only thing that counts is what the Bible says. The only reason I post what these men wrote, is to disprove false claims that these men did not teach such things.