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Featured Debating the Existence of the Pre-Trib Rapture

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Matisyahu8898, Oct 19, 2017.

  1. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    I can not blame you for thinking this, for it is widely reported and believed, and you seem to be relatively new to this forum, so have not seen, or at least have not responded to, the many posts on this subject that have been made in the past. So I do not accuse you of willful deception, as another who is well aware of all this and continues to post his disinformation, along with phrasing his complaints in language intended to deceive.

    A pre-trib rapture was taught in the very oldest Christian commentary on Bible prophecy (of any signficant length) that has survived to the present day. That is the last twelve chapters of the very famous five volume work by Irenaeus, titled "Against Heresies." This is believed to have been published between the years 186 and 188 A.D. We know about older Christian comments on prophecy, but all of them that have survived to the present day are only a few sentences long, at most. The only older one of any significant length that we now about, which was by Papias, has been completely lose, except for ten short quotations published by later writers. So our knowledge of the history of Christian interpretation of Bible prophecy begins with Irenaeus.

    As we begin to examine this document, we first find the words:

    “Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons ‘as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance—in fact, as nothing;’ so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’ For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.” (“Against Heresies”, Book V, chapter 29, paragraph 1)

    Here we find a clear teaching of a pre-tribulation rapture. But Irenaeus also wrote:

    “For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule;” (“Against Heresies”, Book V, chapter 35, paragraph 1)

    Here we see this same ancient writer just as explicitly saying that “the resurrection of the just” “takes place after the coming of Antichrist.” This appears to flatly contradict his other statement. But is this correct? First, we need to notice that Irenaeus did not say that “the resurrection of the just” takes place after the reign of Antichrist. He only said it “takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule.” To see the significance of this, we need to consider another statement from this same ancient document:

    “But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 30, paragraph 4)

    Here we find first, a distinct statement that Antichrist would reign for three years and six months. But also a distinct statement that this three years and six months would be after “this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world.” Thus we see that Irenaeus placing “the resurrection of the just” “after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule,” was not saying the rapture would be after the three and a half year reign of Antichrist. Rather, he placed the rapture at the beginning of that three and a half year reign. That is, he was saying that the time of “tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be” was the three and a half year reign of Antichrist.

    Irenaeus very clearly put the church in at least the first part of the time of Antichrist, as we can see in the following:

    “‘And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall receive power as if kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords and the King of kings.’ It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord.” (“Against Heresies”, Book V, chapter 26, paragraph 1)

    This is the only place Irenaeus used the word “church” in regard to these events, other that the place where he explicitly said “the Church shall be suddenly caught up” before the “tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” But he used the word “we,” which certainly seems to have the same meaning, here:

    “But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: the name, however, is suppressed, because it is not worthy of being proclaimed by the Holy Spirit.” (“Against Heresies”, Book V, chapter 30, paragraph 4)

    These last two statements make it very clear that Irenaeus placed the rapture at least after “the coming of Antichrist.” We have already noticed that in statements about events before the three and a half year reign of Antichrist, he used the words “the church” and “we.” But in his statements about persecutions during the three and a half year reign of Antichrist, he changed this terminology. We remember that in his statement about the church being “suddenly caught up,” he called the tribulation “the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.” He used the term “the righteous” again when he spoke of the faithful in that time in this statement:

    “For that image which was set up by Nebuchadnezzar had indeed a height of sixty cubits, while the breadth was six cubits; on account of which Ananias, Azarias, and Misaël, when they did not worship it, were cast into a furnace of fire, pointing out prophetically, by what happened to them, the wrath against the righteous which shall arise towards the [time of the] end. For that image, taken as a whole, was a prefiguring of this man’s coming, decreeing that he should undoubtedly himself alone be worshipped by all men.” (“Against Heresies”, Book V, chapter 29, paragraph 2)

    We remember that Irenaeus used this same term in speaking of the beginning of the kingdom, saying, “bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom.” He also used a second term for these faithful ones during that time, calling them “saints” in the following statements:

    “Daniel too, looking forward to the end of the last kingdom, i.e., the ten last kings, amongst whom the kingdom of those men shall be partitioned, and upon whom the son of perdition shall come, declares that ten horns shall spring from the beast, and that another little horn shall arise in the midst of them, and that three of the former shall be rooted up before his face. He says: ‘And, behold, eyes were in this horn as the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things, and his look was more stout than his fellows. I was looking, and this horn made war against the saints, and prevailed against them, until the Ancient of days came and gave judgment to the saints of the most high God, and the time came, and the saints obtained the kingdom.’ Then, further on, in the interpretation of the vision, there was said to him: ‘The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall excel all other kingdoms, and devour the whole earth, and tread it down, and cut it in pieces. And its ten horns are ten kings which shall arise; and after them shall arise another, who shall surpass in evil deeds all that were before him, and shall overthrow three kings; and he shall speak words against the most high God, and wear out the saints of the most high God, and shall purpose to change times and laws; and [everything] shall be given into his hand until a time of times and a half time,’ that is, for three years and six months, during which time, when he comes, he shall reign over the earth.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 25, paragraph 3)

    “And then he points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: ‘And in the midst of the week,’ he says, ‘the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete.’ Now three years and six months constitute the half-week.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 25, paragraph 4)

    We need to notice that both of these statements are about the three and a half year reign of Antichrist, and thus speak of a time after Irenaeus placed the “resurrection of the just.”

    Why are the exact words Irenaeus used significant? Because a doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture requires words like “the church” or “we” in statements about the godly during events up to and through the time “the Church shall be suddenly caught up.” But when speaking of times after the rapture, the proper (and scriptural) terms for godly people are “the righteous” or “saints.” Again, the doctrine requires a different term for those who are resurrected at the time of the rapture, for that resurrection includes Old Testament believers who were thus not members of the church. And this is exactly what Irenaeus did, calling the resurrection by its scriptural name of “the resurrection of the just.”

    Now some will want to discount any claim that Irenaeus was intentionally using well selected terminology in these statements. But he used the same precision in his comments about recognizing the Antichrist when he appeared. For, as we have already noticed, when he was speaking of true believers he said “But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him” But when he was speaking of men who might be deceived by the Antichrist, he stuck strictly with the scriptural terminology by referring to them as “those,” “these,” “they,” and “them,”
    as we see in the following statements:

    “Moreover, another danger, by no means trifling, shall overtake those who falsely presume that they know the name of Antichrist. For if these men assume one [number], when this [Antichrist] shall come having another, they will be easily led away by him, as supposing him not to be the expected one, who must be guarded against.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 30, end of paragraph 1)

    “These men, therefore, ought to learn [what really is the state of the case], and go back to the true number of the name, that they be not reckoned among false prophets. But, knowing the sure number declared by Scripture, that is, six hundred sixty and six, let them await, in the first place, the division of the kingdom into ten; then, in the next place, when these kings are reigning, and beginning to set their affairs in order, and advance their kingdom, [let them learn] to acknowledge that he who shall come claiming the kingdom for himself, and shall terrify those men of whom we have been speaking, having a name containing the aforesaid number, is truly the abomination of desolation.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 30, beginning of paragraph 2)

    Thus we see that Irenaeus used precise terminology that clearly distinguished between these two groups. He again used the scriptural words “those,” along with “ye” and “he,” rather than his own words, when speaking of the need for the inhabitants of the land of Judea to flee when they see the abomination of desolation.

    “But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, which has been spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand), then let those who are in Judea flee into the mountains; and he who is upon the house-top, let him not come down to take anything out of his house: for there shall then be great hardship, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall be.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 25, paragraph 2)

    Finally, Irenaeus made one more statement that touches this matter, saying:

    “Has the Word come for the ruin and for the resurrection of many? For the ruin, certainly, of those who do not believe Him, to whom also He has threatened a greater damnation in the judgment-day than that of Sodom and Gomorrah; but for the resurrection of believers, and those who do the will of His Father in heaven.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 27, paragraph 1)

    In this passage Irenaeus implies a simultaneous judgment-day for unbelievers and resurrection of believers. Some will assume that this proves he was not saying that the rapture will be before the tribulation. But this is in full accord with the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture. For there will be people who turn to God during the time of the tribulation, and they will be persecuted and slain for their faith. These will be resurrected at approximately the same time as when Christ comes in power and glory to judge the world. (The scriptures do not say their resurrection happens when He comes. But Revelation 20:4 says “they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” So we know that their resurrection takes place at least approximately the same time as He comes.


    So now we are faced with two choices. We can either assume that Irenaeus was exceedingly careless as to his wording, and simply did not mean what he said. Or we can assume that the precision of his wording was not a mere coincidence, but that he chose his exact words carefully and with intent. In that case, we are forced to conclude that Irenaeus meant exactly what he said when he wrote:

    "And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’"

    So we see that the history of Christian interpretation of Bible prophecy begins with a rapture before the great tribulation. This has been identified by modern scholars in the writings od at least four ancients, one medieval and almost two dozed post-reformation Christian writers, many of which van be easily read in the relatively new book titled "Dispensationalism Before Darby, by William C. Watson, Lampion Press, ISBN # 978-1-942614-03-6 . And Watson missed several other writers whom I have previously posted in this forum, at places such as:

    The Margaret MacDonald Lie The Margaret MacDonald lie.
    What the early church actually taught What the early church actually taught. part 1
    Dispensationalism in Ancient Christian Writings
    Dispensationalism in Ancient Christian Writings
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017
  2. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    You should learn why Jesus descended , - to receive Abraham's bosom into the eternal presence of Christ where they all are right now.
    Again I was not speaking of the rapture in that post , it was proving you wrong in your error that no one is in heaven with Christ , Christ Himself is telling you that the same day that they died that man on the cross will be with Christ that same day and for all of eternity , simple factual truth from God himself that you deny

    42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

    Scripture plainly teaches that people who accept Christ , their spirit/soul goes to be with Jesus immediately after death and their body "sleeps"
    Those who do not accept Jesus their spirit/soul goes to a place of torment upon death because the spirit/soul separates from the body upon death

    Regardless if you believe it is a true real life event or just a parable the FACT is that Lu ke 16 :19-31 is a teaching that when you die your spirit/soul does NOT sleep as it is fully awake and experiencing awareness ,consciousness after death of the body!!
    As the rich man is asking for it to be communicated to his family to not come to the place where he is as he is in torment ,,,IF he was asleep he would not be speaking at all , nor he would be asking that his brothers be told not to come to the place he is at which is Hades!!
    Luke 16: 19-31
    24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

    But you deny truth in favor of a falsehood that you prefer.
    You have been infected with the false teaching _
    You say there is no escape plan , but yet Noah was given an escape plan , Lot was given an escape plan and we are given an escape plan, not only that but Jesus himself speaking directly of the Great Trib is telling you to pray that you will be worthy to "ESCAPE" the Great trib that is going to come in the future Jesus uses the word ESCAPE !! :)
    Luke 21:36
    "pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, "

    dozens of translations all use the words -worthy to ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, "

    It is Only the false teaching that says there is no escape which post tribbers teach
    It is why no post tribber is willing to offer the full layout of their false teaching as there is no scripture support for it
    You have gone the way of Cain-and like Joseph's brothers who hated their brother for they had been infected with the lie of satan
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017
  3. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    The doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture is inextricably linked to the doctrine of Dispensationalism. So what did Irenaeus say about that doctrine?

    He taught the essence of dispensationalism in the following statements:

    “Therefore the Son of the Father declares [Him] from the beginning, inasmuch as He was with the Father from the beginning, who did also show to the human race prophetic visions, and diversities of gifts, and His own ministrations, and the glory of the Father, in regular order and connection, at the fitting time for the benefit [of mankind]. For where there is a regular succession, there is also fixedness; and where fixedness, there suitability to the period; and where suitability, there also utility. And for this reason did the Word become the dispenser of the paternal grace for the benefit of men, for whom He made such great dispensations, revealing God indeed to men, but presenting man to God, and preserving at the same time the invisibility of the Father, lest man should at any time become a despiser of God, and that he should always possess something towards which he might advance; but, on the other hand, revealing God to men through many dispensations, lest man, failing away from God altogether, should cease to exist.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book IV, chapter XX, section 7.)

    Before we go on, we need to notice certain key parts of this statement. Irenaeus said that God has “from the beginning” shown “to the human race prophetic visions” “in regular order and connection, at the fitting time,” and in “a regular succession,” with “suitability to the period.” And we particularly need to notice his statement that the Word was “revealing God to men through many dispensations.”

    A little further on in the same chapter, Irenaeus clarified this by saying, “The only-begotten God, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared [Him];’ and He does Himself also interpret the Word of the Father as being rich and great); not in one figure, nor in one character, did He appear to those seeing Him, but according to the reasons and effects aimed at in His dispensations, as it is written in Daniel.” And further down in the same section, he added, “Thus does the Word of God always preserve the outlines, as it were, of things to come, and points out to men the various forms (species), as it were, of the dispensations of the Father, teaching us the things pertaining to God.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book IV, chapter XX, section 11.)

    And a few chapters later, Irenaeus further said, “There is one and the same God the Father, and His Word, who has been always present with the human race, by means indeed of various dispensations, and has wrought out many things, and saved from the beginning those who are saved, (for these are they who love God, and follow the Word of God according to the class to which they belong,) and has judged those who are judged, that is, those who forget God, and are blasphemous, and transgressors of His word.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book IV, chapter XXVIII, section 2.)

    We already noticed in the first quotation we examined that Irenaeus said that the Word was “revealing God to men through many dispensations,” and that he said that this was done “at the fitting time,” in “a regular succession,” with “suitability to the period.” Now we see that he added that the Word “has been always present with the human race,” and saved various individuals “according to the class to which they belong.”

    All of this was about past dispensations, but Irenaeus not only spoke of past dispensations, but of future ones as well, saying, “Inasmuch, therefore, as the opinions of certain [orthodox persons] are derived from heretical discourses, they are both ignorant of God’s dispensations, and of the mystery of the resurrection of the just, and of the [earthly] kingdom which is the commencement of incorruption, by means of which kingdom those who shall be worthy are accustomed gradually to partake of the divine nature; and it is necessary to tell them respecting those things, that it behoves the righteous first to receive the promise of the inheritance which God promised to the fathers, and to reign in it, when they rise again to behold God in this creation which is renovated, and that the judgment should take place afterwards.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXXII, section 1.)

    In this short summary, I have included only a few statements that summarized his thoughts on the matter. But he spoke of these things many times, using the word dispensation, or its plural form dispensations, well over eighty times. He explicitly named a few of these dispensations, namely “the dispensation of the law,” (book III, chapter XI, section 7, and again in book III, chapter XV, section 3) which he also called “the Levitical Dispensation,” (book IV, Title of chapter XVII.) “the Mosaic dispensation,” (book IV, chapter XXXVI, section 2.) and “the legal dispensation.” (book III, chapter X, section 2 and the title of book V, chapter VIII.) He used this last term a third time, contrasting it with “the new dispensation of liberty” in book III, chapter X, section 4. Finally, he referred to “the future dispensation of the human race.” (book III, chapter XXII, section 3.) We should also note that he used the term the “dispensations of God,” eight times, in book I, chapter X, section 1, book I, chapter XVI, section 3, book II, chapter XXV, section 3, book III, chapter XI, section 9, book IV, chapter XX, section 10, book IV, chapter XXI, section 3, book IV, chapter XXIII, section 1, and book IV, chapter XXXIII, section 1.

    Irenaeus insisted that his doctrine of the dispensations was what the church had always taught, saying, ““The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents...” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book I, chapter X, section 1.) He said again that “Where, therefore, the gifts of the Lord have been placed, there it behoves us to learn the truth, [namely,] from those who possess that succession of the Church which is from the apostles, and among whom exists that which is sound and blameless in conduct, as well as that which is unadulterated and incorrupt in speech. For these also preserve this faith of ours in one God who created all things; and they increase that love [which we have] for the Son of God, who accomplished such marvellous dispensations for our sake: and they expound the Scriptures to us without danger, neither blaspheming God, nor dishonouring the patriarchs, nor despising the prophets.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book IV, chapter XXVI, section 5.)

    We know from the writings of John Nelson Darby that he read the early church fathers, so is it any surprise, then, that when he began to write about how God works in various ways at different times, he should have chosen the word “dispensations” to describe these various periods of time? In so doing, he was not only using the very words of scripture, but the same word used by Irenaeus to describe these same ideas.

    But we need to be cautious in overstressing this, because Irenaeus also taught the essence of Covenant Theology in other places in his writings. To those of us in the present age, this seems contradictory. But we need to remember that neither of these doctrines was formalized as a system of doctrine until more than a thousand years after the end of the period we call "the ancient times." Covenant Theology was first formalized as a doctrine in the fifteen hundreds, and Dispensationalism in the 1800s.
     
  4. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    I need to stress that I do not point out the history of any doctrine with the thought that its age lends it some ind of credence. I point it out for the sole reason of disproving false allegations about the history of Christian thinking.

    Some people use these false allegations in an attempt to bolster their own interpretations by claiming they were taught by so-and-so. While others use them in an attempt to tear down interpretations made by others by claiming that they were never taught before such-and-such a time.

    I write about the history of ideas to disprove both of these claims. But I need to stress that I reject, and completely reject, Any and every concept that the history of an idea has any bearing whatsoever on its truth or falsehood. I hold, and rigidly and absolutely hold, that the only thing that counts is what the Bible actually teaches.

    I have posted the scriptural basis for believing in a pre-tribulation rapture in places such as:

    A Scriptural Precedent A Scriptural Precedent
    Why I believe the rapture will be before the tribulation
    Why I believe the rapture will be before the tribulation.
    Why the rapture is before the Tribulation
    Why the rapture is before the Tribulation, part 1
    OH NO! Another thread about the timing of the rapture! Oh NO! Another Thread About the Timing of the Rapture!


    And I have posted the scriptural basis for Dispensationalism in places such as:

    Scripture prophesies a future temporary earthly kingdom. Scripture prophesies a future temporary earthly kingdom.
    The physical descendants of the ancient nation of Israel. The physical descendants of the acient nation of Israel.
    New Testament Promises of Israel’s Restoration
    New Testament Promises of Israel’s Restoration
    The unfulfilled promise of Israel’s repentance The unfulfilled promise of Israel's repentence.
    The unfulfilled promise to David The unfulfilled promise to David
    The unfulfilled promise to Abraham The unfulfilled promise to Abraham.
    The True Meaning of Romans 9-11 The True Meaning of Romans 9-11
    What Happens When Messiah Comes What happens when Messiah comes.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017
  5. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Your post found below twists the scriptures to make the Two Peoples of God doctrine work.
    It is the ultimate in "Replacement Theology".


    New Testament Promises of Israel’s Restoration

    It replaces the One Seed with the many seeds in Galatians 3:16.

    It replaces the children of the promise, with the children of the flesh in Romans 9:8.

    It replaces the word "so", with the word "then" in Romans 11:26.

    It claims "the times of the Gentiles" ends 7 years before the Second Coming, instead of reading Luke 21:24-28, which reveals that it ends at the Second Coming of Christ.

    Its most obvious error is the attempt to ignore the fact that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

    On the Day of Pentecost Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel" in Acts 2:36.
    The Church as a whole has never been a "Gentile Church".


    .
     
  6. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There is nothing wrong with the Scripture you point out, but your exegesis is out of order, together with flawed hermeneutics as I previously revealed to you in my posts #289 and #290.


    Quasar92
     
  7. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    In your haste to denounce the post you linked, you did not bother to actually read it, for you are claiming it says things it does not even say.

    And you insist that the standard translations of Romans 11:26 are incorrect, substituting your interpretation of how the Greek word "houtos" should be translated in this passage.

    The truth is, that in the KJV this Greek word is translated "so" 164 times and "even so" 9 times, for a total of 173 such translations, while it is translated "thus" only 17 times, "on this wise" 6 times, "likewise" 4 times, and "after this manner" 3 times, for a total of 30 times. That is, it is translated as in the standard translations of this verse well over five times as often as it is translated the way you want it translated here.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017
  8. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In God's New Will and Testament, all promises are fulfilled in Christ.

    The OT promises are the promissory clauses of God's Old Will and Testament, and they are both revoked and fulfilled in the promissory clauses of His New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator.

    If you have made your own Will and Testament, you will see that the very first clause states the following, or its equivalent:

    "I HEREBY REVOKE all former Wills and other testamentary dispositions by me at any time therefore made and declare this to be my Last Will and Testament."

    This means that all former wills and testaments, and all of their promissory clauses, are completely null and void. In their place, the promissory clauses of the current last new will and testament are the only ones in force and effect. Any promissory clause which appeared in the old will and testament, but does not appear in the new will and testament, is irrevocably null and void unless another new will and testament is made which re-includes it.

    We see the new promissory clauses of God's New Will and Testament in:

    Matthew 21:33-45
    In this parable, the son, who is identified as the heir, typifies Christ.

    Galatians 3:16
    Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

    2 Corinthians 1:20
    For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

    Hebrews 1:1,2
    1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    and other scriptures. In them, we see that the Heir and Beneficiary is Christ alone, that all of the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Him, and that He is Heir of all things. All includes the OT land promises, the restoration promises, the blessings promises, and all else. There are no exceptions.

    Additional promissory clauses in:

    Romans 8:16-17
    16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
    17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    Galatians 3:29
    And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    make us who are in Christ joint heirs with Him.


    But there are no promissory clauses for anyone who is not in Christ
     
  9. Servant232

    Servant232 Active Member

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    Gen 48:19
    And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed (Ephraim) shall become fulness of the nations.

    melo ha goyim

    melo - 1. fulness, that which fills

    goyim - 1. nations, people

    Rom 11:25
    For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the nations be come in.

    Plērōma - fulness, that which fills

    Ethnos - people, nations

    Eze 37:22

    And I will make them One goy in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and One King shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two goyim, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

    ~

    Say unto them, Thus saith Adonai YHWH; Behold, I will take The stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with The stick of Judah, and make them One stick, and they shall be One in mine hand. Eze 37:19


    The Fulness of the people = Israel - When the stick of Joseph comes in.

    ~~

    Gal 3:29
    And if you be Messiah's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    Isa 41:8
    But thou, Israel, are My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham My friend.

    In Messiah the believer is Israel.

    Eph 2:11
    Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past (Ethnos) *People in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the *Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

    12
    That at that time ye were without Messiah, being aliens from the Citizenship of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

    ~~~~~~~

    Isa 44:5

    One shall say, I am YHWH'S; and another shall call by the name of Jacob; and another shall subscribe his hand unto YHWH, and surname by the name of Israel.
    [​IMG]

    Rather than Gather, the dispensationalist pastors have been scattering His Sheep into their replacement theology, unadulterated heresies, in that they have somehow manage to convince the majority of His Sheep that they belong to a flock, A People with whom YHWH has made Covenant that is Not Israel. OY VEY

    Robbing His people of their Heritage, keeping them captive, feeding only themselves, Woe unto them.​
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017
  10. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    To claim that any promise of God could be revoked, is to deny that any promise of God can be relied upon.

    You are right that the promises are only to those who are in Christ. But God has promised to bring thdm to repentance, so He can justly keep that promises He made.
     
  11. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You seem incapable of understanding the nature and operation of wills and testaments.

    A New Will and Testament is of significance not only for what it contains, but also for what it does not contain.

    If a promissory clause in an Old Will and Testament does not re-appear in the New Will and Testament, it is null and void.

    Do the Old Will and Testament land and other carnal promises to national Israel re-appear in the New Will and Testament?

    They do not.

    They are therefore null and void under the New Will and Testament, which is the only will and testament now in force and effect.

    Its promises and bequests to Israel have been replaced by the New Will and Testament promises and bequests in and to Christ the Heir:

    Luke 22:20
    Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

    2 Corinthians 1:20
    For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

    Hebrews 1:1,2
    1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


    If you do not believe that a New Will and Testament completely revokes, nullifies, and voids an Old Will and Testament, then you should contact your lawyer or attorney without delay to determine the ultimate fate and destiny of your own temporal estate.

    He or she will set your mind at ease.
     
  12. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    You are attempting to use human reasoning to escape the explicit statements of scripture. It does not work.

    16 For men indeed swear by the greater, and an oath for confirmation is for them an end of all dispute. 17 Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath, 18 that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us. 19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, 20 where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek. Hebrews 6:16-20

    Here, the God of heaven instructs Christians to base their present confidence on the fact that His counsel is immutable, that every promise he has made will most certainly be kept.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017
  13. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    Maybe you could expand on your intent?
    If Israel had not rejected Christ Yesuha as their Messiah Gentiles would not likely have been offered. The fact is now anyone Jew and Gentile alike are now privileged to spend eternity with YHWH , Israel can still receive all the promises given in the OT if they will accept Christ Yeshua as their Messiah.

    1 Corinthians 2:
    7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:

    “What no eye has seen,
    what no ear has heard,
    and what no human mind has conceived”—
    the things God has prepared for those who love him

    10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
     
  14. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    And how many times is the Greek word "houto" translated as "then", which is the change Dispensationalists often make to Romans 11:26?

    I have heard John Hagee change the word "so" to the word "then" during a television sermon.

    Dr. David Jeremiah left out the word "so", when quoting the verse during a television sermon.

    Both are a corruption of the text, intended to make the Two Peoples of God doctrine work.

    .
     
  15. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    What do you mean when you use the word "Israel"?

    Are you referring to a whole modern nation of people?

    Or, are you referring to a group of modern people based on a sample of their DNA?
    If you are, how much of Jacob's DNA is required to make a modern person a part of what you consider to be "Israel"?


    .
     
  16. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    The charge that we make this change "often" is blatantly false. In well over fifty years of constant interaction with them, I cannot recall of ever having heard this done a single time.

    You know perfectly well that Dispensationalists in general do not even recognize John Hagee as one of ourselves, but condemn him as an heretic. And if David Jeremiah omitted this word intentionally, with a thought to pretend the sentence says something it does not say, this would indeed be wrongdoing. But have you never, even once, left out a word in a sentence you were quoting?
     
  17. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    I will let God sort that out. For it applies to a time after He has come.
     
  18. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The following is typical of Dispensational preaching on Romans chapter 11.

    If you have never heard anyone change the text of Romans 11:26, then listen up.
    How many times is the word "so" omitted, during the discussion?
    How many times is the word "then" used during the discussion?







    He also fails to mention that the "covenant" in Romans 11:27 is the New Covenant, fulfilled for all races of people at Calvary.

    .
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017
  19. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There is not a word of contradiction between what that passage asserts, and what I've said and cited. God's immutable promise to Abraham appears in Hebrews 6:14. It is fulfilled in Christ, and those who are in Christ. (Romans 8:16-17, Galatians 3:7,9,16,26,28-29, 2 Corinthians 1:20, Hebrews 1:1-2).

    Christ confirms, “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.” (John 8:56)

    God cannot and did not lie.

    There's more.

    Hebrews 9
    15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
    16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
    17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

    Here Scripture is declaring that the New Testament is more than a testament between two living parties; it is a Will and Testament, or Testamentary Will, which, upon the death of the testator, comes into full force and effect, operating according to the principles of revocation, nullification, and voidance described earlier.

    Here is the definition of a Testamentary Will:

    A testamentary will is a traditional will, sometimes referred to as just a will. A will is a legal document that is used to transfer an estate to beneficiaries after the death of the testator (the person that makes the will).

    Scripture describes it thus:

    Hebrews 8
    6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
    13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

    The New and better is come; the old is vanished.

    Get with the program.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017
  20. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    The fact remains that unconditional promises were made in the Old Testament, not only to Abraham, but to the physical land of Israel, to the nation of Israel, to the sub-nations of Judah and Ephraim, to each of the twelve tribes of Israel, to the sons of Zadok, and to the families of the houses of David, Nathan. Levi, and Shimei. And God stressed the absolute reliability of His promises as the basis for our faith.

    The fact that the Old Covenant was replaced by a new one, did not and can not nullify even one promise made to people who lived before that change was made. Every one of these promises still stands inviolate. Otherwise, God would be a liar. For at the time He made these promises, He knew that He would change the covenant. So if He did not intend these promises to continue to stand under the New Covenant, He would have been lying when he promised to do these things.

    Your reasonings cannot do away with or eliminate even one of these promises. When you claim that God cancelled them, you are denying the only basis for our faith, the only hope for our salvation.
     
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