• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Death...then what?

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by The Pilgrim, Feb 16, 2005.

  1. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim New Member

    Is this a reliable source? Any comments from the rest?:wave:
  2. Child of the Most High

    Child of the Most High Member

    My observation was that it mirrored much of what is taught on the Jehovah's witnesses watchtower site. No offense intended.
  3. Beth-el girl

    Beth-el girl Member

    They are nothing like JW's. Yes they are a reliable I have researched them for years. Ron Dart too they all have come out of the OLD wwcg's. They are christian's keeping God's days and ways. They are sabbath keeping holy day keeping clean meat keeping people. JWs aren't. Their doctrine is far differnt. JW's keep sunday and eat unclean animals extra I have JW's coming here all the time I take their stuff. It's nothing of the same as the the Chruch of God or Ron Dart. The UCG WWGS Ron DART all these do so much simular to Messianic except they don't go to the hebrew language and they keep the days as christians. So please do more research, they have had their issues just like all churches. The old WWCG under Armstrong had big problems. There is a wwcg that keeps sunday it's not the one I am talking about.
  4. Bon

    Bon Truth Seeker

    Here is an interesting comparison of eternal fire in scripture.

    Jude 1:7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

    Sodom and Gomorrah are set forth as an EXAMPLE. They suffered the vengeance of ETERNAL FIRE

    But are they still burning today?.....no they were completely destroyed by fire.

    NOTE: Abraham pleaded with Yahweh not to DESTROY Sodom, but to spare it for the sake of even ten righteous people.

    Genesis 18:24 Suppose there were fifty righteous within the city; would You also destroy the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous that were in it? 25 Far be it from You to do such a thing as this, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked; far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

    26 So the LORD said, "If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes."

    27 Then Abraham answered and said, "Indeed now, I who am but dust and ashes have taken it upon myself to speak to the Lord: 28 Suppose there were five less than the fifty righteous; would You destroy all of the city for lack of five?"

    So He said, "If I find there forty-five, I will not destroy it."

    29 And he spoke to Him yet again and said, "Suppose there should be forty found there?"

    So He said, "I will not do it for the sake of forty."

    30Then he said, "Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Suppose thirty should be found there?"

    So He said, "I will not do it if I find thirty there."

    31 And he said, "Indeed now, I have taken it upon myself to speak to the Lord: Suppose twenty should be found there?"

    So He said, "I will not destroy it for the sake of twenty."

    32 Then he said, "Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak but once more: Suppose ten should be found there?"

    And He said, "I will not destroy it for the sake of ten." 33 So the LORD went His way as soon as He had finished speaking with Abraham; and Abraham returned to his place.

    Genesis 19:27 And Abraham went early in the morning to the place where he had stood before the LORD. 28 Then he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain; and he saw, and behold, the smoke of the land which went up like the smoke of a furnace.

    All that remained was SMOKE, smoldering ashes.

    The LAKE OF FIRE is ETERNAL DEATH for the wicked and unrepentant.

    Shalom from Bon
  5. Beth-el girl

    Beth-el girl Member

    Mal 4
    3"You will (A)tread down the wicked, for they will be (B)ashes under the soles of your feet (C)on the day which I am preparing," says the LORD of hosts.
    Ezek 32
    18"By the multitude of your iniquities,
    In the unrighteousness of your trade
    You profaned your sanctuaries.
    Therefore I have brought (A)fire from the midst of you;
    It has consumed you,
    And I have turned you to (B)ashes on the earth
    In the eyes of all who see you.
    3Therefore they will be like the (A)morning cloud
    And like dew which soon disappears,
    Like (B)chaff which is blown away from the threshing floor
    And like (C)smoke from a chimney
    REv 14
    11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”

    The smoke rises not the tornment is forever. The reason there is not rest is because they can't enter God's rest they're just burnt up.
    We see from Rev 14 :10-11 & Mark 9:47-48 that any human being thrown into the lake of fire will be destroyed. He will perish His punishment will be eternal. But he will not be tormented for eternity. Satan a spirit being will suffer torment long after the wicked are burnt to ashes. The evil angels & demons will share Satan's torment. Mat 25:41 Psalms 37:20 Into smoke they shall vanish away. The smoke of their torment will rise forever meaning nothing can stop it. The Greek word translated forever doesn't always mean eternity.It can mean something that will not be stopped.
    Gahanna is reference to in Mat 10:28 And do not fear them who kill the body but cannot kill the soul But rather fear him who is able to destroy both in Gahanna (hell) Jesus said God can destroy both body & soul in Gahanna. There is no resurrection from this. People will reap their destruction in the lake of fire and the end of the age. They will be consumed.
    The book of Malachi 4:1 For behold the day is coming burning like a oven and all the proud yes all who do wicked will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up! "that will leave them neither root nor branch.
    You shall trample with wicked for they will be ashes under your feet on the day that I do this. vs3
  6. Iollain

    Iollain Jer 18:2-6

    In Relationship
    I think the dead in Yeshua are asleep, but i think they have probably had a meeting with God, because of Rev 6 , they seem to be woke up and given white robes,then told to rest awhile longer, and Rev 7, i would say is the Rapture because i think all the Church is here praising God forever. But then Revelations is not as easy as that. Could they have been given white robes after Yeshua's ressurection? They are in heaven under the altar.
  7. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim New Member

    I can actually say the same things about them. Although, I am not too familiar about their doctrines, the messianic congregation I attend (if I have the time and money to travel 2 hours) has leaders which were former members of that church. The only difference, they say, is that although they celebrate the Feasts, eat kosher, keep shabbat, etc, they consider themselves separate from judaism. And, they celebrate Pesach on the 14th rather than on the 15th. ;)
  8. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim New Member

    And since we're talking about hell, I would like to ask: Before the cross, was there such a place? In my Thompson's I find that only Sheol is mentioned in the Bible during the times before Yeshua.

    With the exception of Sodom and Gomorrha (since their punishment was an example), has anyone ever been to hell yet? Is it correct to claim that souls will only go to hell after the 2nd resurrection?:confused:
  9. Child of the Most High

    Child of the Most High Member

  10. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    No one has been to hell yet...and souls will only go to hell after the second resurrection. And all this controversy started from one little lie...

    What was the first lie Satan told?

    What did God say?

    As a consequence of sin, what happened to man?

    Will all men only die once?

    Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire

    The righteous dead will be resurrected and taken to heaven when Yeshua comes the second time. The wicked will all be left dead upon this earth.

    What does the Bible call death?

    There is an appointed time when Michael will stand up and the resurrection will occur.
    In first and second Kings and first and second Chronicles there are many verses that refer to the death of a person by saying that he “slept with his fathers.” Matt. 27:52,53 speaks of the “saints which slept,” who were resurrected at the death of Jesus, when there was an earthquake that opened graves.

    What happens when a person dies?

    Do the dead know anything?
    Job 14:21 His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them.

    When God created man from the “dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” Gen. 2:7. But when man dies, we read in Ps. 104:29 and Eccl.. 12:7 the breath goes back to God Who gave it, and man returns to dust as God told Adam and Eve in Gen. 3:19. Then without the breath, man dies (Ps. 104:29) and man becomes a dead soul.

    Is death the end of everything?

    So what happens when you walk up from the dead...
    2 Tim. 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

    How long will the righteous dead sleep?

    There will be the elect at the end who do not die but live to see Yeshua return, and they will see the ressurection of the righteous dead..
    Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

    How long will the wicked be dead upon the earth after the righteous are taken to heaven?

    What will happen to even death and hell at the end of this time?

    But if the dead are already enjoying the bliss of heaven or writhing in the flames of hell, what need of a future judgment? That concept just doesn't make sense. The teaching of God’s word on these important points are neither obscure or contradictory; they may be understood by common minds, but what candid mind can see either wisdom or justice in the current theory?

    Will the righteous, after the investigation of their cases at the judgment, receive the commendation, “Well done, thou good and faithful servant:....enter thou into the joy of thy Lord,” when as some propose, they have been dwelling in His presence, perhaps for long ages?

    Will the wicked be summoned from the place of torment or pergatory to receive a sentence from the Judge of all the earth: “Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire.”? Please note that the everlasting fire was prepared for the devil and his angels...God wants us all to come to repentence and receive His offering of eternal life.

    Matt. 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

    How does the Bible describe this second death prepared for the evil ones?

    Ps. 37:20 expresses it another way when it says, “they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.”

    Malachi 4:1 says, “it shall leave them neither root nor branch.” Verse 3 says, “they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet.”

    How does Yeshua describe the end of the wicked?

    This fire is called “everlasting” because God is a everlasting consuming fire. It also describes the character of the work it does; just as it is called “unquenchable” because it cannot be put out, not because it will not go out when its work is done. Remember God is a consuming fire.

    Deuteronomy 9:3 Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.

    Even the righteous have the eternal fires to walk through....

    Daniel 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
    Satan, the root of every sin, and all evil workers, who are his branches, shall be utterly cut off.

    An end will be made of sin, with all the woe and ruin that have resulted from it. Says the psalmist, “Thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name forever and ever, O thou enemy, destruction are come to a perpetual end.” Ps. 9:5,6.
  11. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim New Member

    Thank you so much vis!:thumbsup:

    This helps alot and places some of my thoughts in order. Slowly the "jigsaw puzzle" is starting to make sense.

    This is exactly one area I can't truly comprehend. Yeshua's "story" on the sheeps and the goats wherein both the wicked and righteous will be judged at the same time, does not really make sense to this human mind of mine. Can it be that Yeshua was referring to those generations which arose during the 1000 Year Kingdom? After the first resurrection, the righteous will become judges and priests over those who survived the Tribulation and Wrath. After the Millennium, HaSatan will be released and will deceive many. Is it possible that the judgement Yeshua spoke of is the judgement of the last generation at the end of the millennium?

    What about Hebrews 9:27:
    "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"

    What judgement does the author refer to?:confused:

    And another question just came up...something I never really thought about until this very moment:
    What about those who live during the 1000 Year Kingdom? Will they experience physical death? And if they die....will they sleep until the 2nd resurrection and "judgement"?:scratch:

  12. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    The way that I understand it.....At the first ressurection all the righteous will hear His voice and rise unto everlasting life and join those who were alive at Yeshua's second coming and go with Him for the Wedding Supper. Those who roll over and do not rise when they are called the first time will not get another call until after 1000 years ...
    When the Lord calls then from the grave the second time, they that rise from the grave are of the same mind that they were when they went into the grave....

    When they rise... they are still where they left off, a little confused at the changes...probably Satan will continue to deceive them into believing that their beloved city of God has been stolen from them and they must attack.

    Now while they are close enough where you could have a conversation over the wall of the camp, is when I believe this conversation takes place.

    Remember how deceived this person is... thinking that the fiery torment is at death not at the end of the thousand years ... thinking that he is in some kind of livng dead torment .... and wanting to have someone from the dead warn his family..."who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?"

    There are several phases to judgement.... there is the investigative, which is called discovery... this is where we get tested... just like Job.... there is the court date, where all men stand before God and that is from the Feast of Trumpets to the DAy of Atonement for those who are alive.

    I believe that there will be a day when the Lord will enter every mind on earth....and the light will shine in all its glory and reveal all the corners of the mind... whether for good or evil... Mans mind will condemn himself by comparison... Only those who know the Lord will see the mercy beyond the unworthy comparison. All the verses of offered salvation will come to mind and bring peace and praise from the repentant...all the verses to those who have resisted will be like hot coals upon the head... and they will harden their heart completely.

    I want you to understand that when the Lord comes to His temple it will be fast, suddenly. For those that are prepared for it , this will be a time of great rejoicing, for those who are unprepared it will be the judgement that they so feared.

    So what is the experience like... for those who are alive on this Day of Atonement...

    The Day of Atonement is an appointed time when the Lord will come for His bride...How would you like to have your mind totally united with Yeshua's forever?

    This whole event will be suddenly and it will be mind blowing experience.

    This is what will separate the sheep and the goats forever....

    For those that have died, they will be resurrected according to their faith...if they are His sheep and hear His voice they will rise on the first call....
    If they do not rise and roll over until the second call and resurrection, then it will be too late...for Yeshua said..

    They condemn themselves by their life, actions and beliefs....

    Yeshua's purpose is not to judge but to save... kind of hard to save those who refuse the offer....

    It will be the Word of God that does pierce the heart and man will condemn himself...
    Just as it was in the days of Noah, we must come into the ark of safety for the next thing to cover the earth will be fire and we will need to be in the camp of God as it will burn up the whole earth.

    Psalm 50:3
    Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

    Nahum 1:6
    Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.
  13. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter