Death Penalty

[Anovah]

I doubt anyone would want people who have been shown to be innocent to be put to death. Shouldn't better technology which leads to increased accuracy of conviction be something in favour of the death penalty if anything?

Key words were "would have"

And no it just proves advancments will continue to bring new light to old cases.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Opposed to death penalty

 

[CSMR]

No it doesn't prove that, and if true the number of cases cast doubt on by new advances will diminish to zero eventually. (If the advances are really advances.)

 

[Anovah]

Maybe my choice of words were wrong but I was actually referring to absolute fact of someones guilt in committing murder.

Assuring it's an absolute fact is impossible. I believe the "without a shadow of a doubt" to be a good philosophy, and as a part of that the DP should not be included.

BTW, do you think the man who murdered John Lennon was wrongly convicted? As far as I'm concerned, he should have been put to death 25 years ago. Here it is 25 years later and he thinks he deserves to be allowed back into society. Give me a break. Are you one of those bleeding hearts who thinks he should?

Bleeding hearts? Common...admit it...you want to call me a liberal so bad. (and 1. it would be extreamly unlikely and 2. no)

Oh I know it proves nothing but not according to the religious group that preaches/teaches that doctrine. According to that belief it's as if a person never committed any crime at all and are totally innocent and should be pardoned. Get the picture?

k

The same for you too partner.

Thanks!

Actually I think you're just a little bothered of the fact a fellow atheist has no problem with the death penalty.

Dude, I promise you it has NOTHING to do with you being an athiest. I didn't even bother checking.

To be honest about all this bleeding heart

There it is again. Say it...SAY IT!

mentality I keep hearing for all these murderous thugs, I'm kind of sick and tired of all the softness towards these dregs in our society and how they demand they get away with murdering others who didn't deserve it.

I don't see it as being soft at all. And you still don't seem to address the deaths of the murderous thugs and dregs who turn out to be innocents. Did they deserve it? Is that just the price we pay for not being soft?

I'm glad to see at least one other atheist agrees with me. Lasercool

Atheist brotherhood unite! Or something.

Maybe you should read his excellent post on the subject in the previous page in this thread. I think he nails it pretty good.

Good post Laser if you're out there.

I'm afraid your mistaken. I already did. What an odd thing to say.

Thanks for your time Franklin

 

[Anovah]

No it doesn't prove that, and if true the number of cases cast doubt on by new advances will diminish to zero eventually. (If the advances are really advances.)

close to zero you mean

 

[Beastt]

Arguments against the death penalty from a non-Christian.

1) If one innocent person is killed, that should be enough to not have the death penalty

In the history of capital punishment in the United States, 5% of those executed are later found to be innocent of the crime for which they were executed. That means that in Texas alone, on an average year, 5 or 6 innocent people are put to death by the state. Of course this only considers those who are actually proven to have been innocent after the execution. The correct number is likely much higher as, in most cases, once the execution is carried out, the investigative process into the case ceases.

One probable reason for this high error rate was revealed in the number of appellate cases which uncovered serious procedural errors in the original trial while non-capital cases showed a serious error rate of 15%, capital cases showed a serious error rate of over 60%. This is likely due to the high pressure applied to county attorneys and district attorneys to win a conviction in such cases. Unfortunately, the public's view of those who are aquitted of capital crimes is that the perpetrator of a capital crime beat the system and is back out on the street. In the collective mind of the public, a charge of wrong-doing is as good as a conviction. Public prosecutors buckle to this pressure and often begin to take unfair advantage in order to win their case.


Statistics courtesy of Scientific American

 

[CSMR]

close to zero you mean

I did mean zero - I said the number of cases cast doubt on by further advances, not the number of cases that are wrongly decided.

 

[Ryal Kane]

I'm an atheist, opposed to the death penalty.

I can only see it being valid in the case of violent sociopaths, who present a clear danger to thers, even behind bars. People who kill, confess and show no remorse.
Obviously we can't tell what goes on in peoples heads.
I for one believe in redemption. No if only we could work out a penal system that actually rehabilitated criminals.

 

[Anovah]

I did mean zero - I said the number of cases cast doubt on by further advances, not the number of cases that are wrongly decided.

But then this would go against your earlier statement of advancements being in favor of the death penalty as the cases that are wrongly decided could not become 0.

Are you saying there would be some sort of acceptable number? When would it become wrong? 1 innocent for every 100 guilty? 10 innoccent to 1 guilty?

 

[franklin]

Assuring it's an absolute fact is impossible. I believe the "without a shadow of a doubt" to be a good philosophy, and as a part of that the DP should not be included.

The lady pic ax murderer from Texas was an absolute fact. That's what I'm referring to.

Bleeding hearts? Common...admit it...you want to call me a liberal so bad. (and 1. it would be extreamly unlikely and 2. no)

I'm not calling you a liberal, it seems like you have yourself convinced you are already. I consider myself liberal on some issues as well as conservative on others. So what's your point?

I don't see it as being soft at all. And you still don't seem to address the deaths of the murderous thugs and dregs who turn out to be innocents. Did they deserve it? Is that just the price we pay for not being soft?

I'm not referring to those who are innocent. I'm referring to the brutal murderers as in the example above.

Atheist brotherhood unite! Or something.

Not a bad idea. Not necessarily to agree totally either.

I'm afraid your mistaken. I already did. What an odd thing to say.

Thanks for your time Franklin

Thanks for your time too Anovah.

 

[CSMR]

But then this would go against your earlier statement of advancements being in favor of the death penalty as the cases that are wrongly decided could not become 0.

An advance which makes conviction more accurate would reduce the number of wrong convictions and so would be a point in favour of the death penalty or at least not against it: a person would be unlikely to support the death penalty when the convict is more likely to be innocent and be against it when he is more likely to be guilty.

Are you saying there would be some sort of acceptable number? When would it become wrong? 1 innocent for every 100 guilty? 10 innoccent to 1 guilty?

No I am not saying this although now that you ask my answer would be a qualified yes. I was only questioning your argument. If you believe that any chance of being wrong makes the death penalty wrong then you are welcome to believe that.

 

[anunbeliever]

secondly, as a Christian, i do believe that murder is wrong. do we need to constantly make justified exscuses for taking the life of another? if murdering a murderer is right, then we need to just say that evil is nesseccary in this world but yet i thought evil was something that was bad.

The Bible is clear that God sanctions capital punishment. Paul, in particular, warns believers to be wary of the state as they "carry the sword" as Gods servant to punish the evil doer.

On a secular level - of course our courts should be as fair and just as possible. I believe the benefit of executing the worst murderers is worth the risk of an innocent man being wrongly killed. And yes, i'd still think the same if it were me or someone close to me.

 

[Anovah]

The lady pic ax murderer from Texas was an absolute fact. That's what I'm referring to.

I'm not wanting to be rude, but you have no way of knowing every detail and fact in the world that could possibly surround any given case.

I'm not calling you a liberal,

Okay, but then you say something like this...

it seems like you have yourself convinced you are already.

...and that doesn't seem so clear. But I totally believe you if you say otherwise.

I consider myself liberal on some issues as well as conservative on others. So what's your point?

Only reason I said it is because it's been my experience that %90 of the time someone says bleeding heart, liberal follows.

I'm not referring to those who are innocent. I'm referring to the brutal murderers as in the example above.

Not a bad idea. Not necessarily to agree totally either.

You're not a bad guy Franklin.

So I should probably chill on this the rest of the night. I'm obviously passionate about it and I don't want to come off like I'm attacking anyone (which happens when I get passionate about something) I'm gonna go play some WOW Thanks (CSMR too) for puttin up with me.

Thanks for your time too Anovah.

Have a good night dude

 

[Magnus Vile]

Despite all the arguments that claim otherwise, I will never believe that the death penalty is anything other than revenge. I have, what I consider to be, proof of this too.

It's a simple thing which I feel totally disproves all the claims of "Protecting the public"

What is it?

Suicide watch on Death Row.

 

[Btodd]

Despite all the arguments that claim otherwise, I will never believe that the death penalty is anything other than revenge. I have, what I consider to be, proof of this too.

It's a simple thing which I feel totally disproves all the claims of "Protecting the public"

What is it?

Suicide watch on Death Row.

They also swab your arm before giving you a lethal injection. Well, we wouldn't want you to get an infection! (George Carlin paraphrasing)


Btodd

 

[Magnus Vile]

They also swab your arm before giving you a lethal injection. Well, we wouldn't want you to get an infection! (George Carlin paraphrasing)


Btodd

Those two second infections can be fatal...

 

[MQTA]

interesting question, tough to answer

 

[Ryal Kane]

(EDIT) Double post.. see. .I told you I'd mess it up!

 

[Ryal Kane]

Despite all the arguments that claim otherwise, I will never believe that the death penalty is anything other than revenge. I have, what I consider to be, proof of this too.

It's a simple thing which I feel totally disproves all the claims of "Protecting the public"

What is it?

Suicide watch on Death Row.

I always considered that to be absurd too.
But I wonder if there is a correlation between people supporting the death penalty but also being opposed to euthenasia. Someone want to run a poll for the four options? I'd just stuff it up.

 

[quantumspirit]

where they executed someone every two weeks and bragged about it. Be more like Nebraska, where they execute someone once every 40 years, and go through a mile of red tape and protesters to do it.

I believe that the death penalty should be reserved for people like Nazi war criminals and Timothy McVeigh.

I really think now that some clemency should have been granted to Tookie Williams. While on death row, he did make a turnaround and help efforts against gang violence. Sure, there's the risk that if you take the threat of death off him, he won't feel the need to secure eternity for himself by helping authorities. In which case, somehow keep the possibility of death hanging over his head, and when you get some breakthrough of assistance from him, ease off...