"Death" in Gen. 2:17 and Rom. 5:12

[dysert]

I've been wondering lately about the concept of death as it is referenced in Gen. 2:17 and in Rom. 5:12. I've pretty much always thought that when Adam & Eve sinned, the death they experienced was a spiritual death because they obviously didn't physically die when they ate from the Tree of Knowledge. Assuming this is true, then wouldn't Rom. 5:12 also be referring to spiritual death instead of a physical death? For your reference, here are the two verses (NKJV):

Gen. 2:17
"but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Rom. 5:12
"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned"

Your thoughts?

 

[dysert]

Any takers?

 

[Christophercbm]

I used to think that it was only spiritual death too, but now I lean in favor of the idea that it meant physical death as well. Its true that they didn't die that very same day, but the Bible says that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and no one has lived to be a thousand. Methuselah came close, but he died at the age of 969.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

2Pet 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

 

[dysert]

I used to think that it was only spiritual death too, but now I lean in favor of the idea that it meant physical death as well. Its true that they didn't die that very same day, but the Bible says that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and no one has lived to be a thousand. Methuselah came close, but he died at the age of 969.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

2Pet 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

So I gather that you think Adam & Eve would have died a physical death on the "day", but the "day" was really 1000 years long?

 

[Christophercbm]

So I gather that you think Adam & Eve would have died a physical death on the "day", but the "day" was really 1000 years long?

Yes, that's how I see it. To me, its very difficult to reconcile Genesis 2:17 with a physical death any other way.

As far as the verse in Romans goes

Rom. 5:12
"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned"

I dont know if that necessarily means that death entered into the animal kingdom because of Adam and Eves fall, even though this could very well be the case. We know that sin was already in the "world" because the Serpent was being sinful when he pretty much called God a liar by saying "you shall not surely die" and this was before Adam and Eve had actually sinned. The word "world" in Romans 5:12 is "Kosmos", and here is scofields definition of "Kosmos."

world

The Greek word kosmos means "order," "arrangement," and so, with the Greeks, "beauty"; for order and arrangement in the sense of system are at the bottom of the Greek conception of beauty.

When used in the N.T. of humanity, the "world" of men, it is organized humanity-- humanity in families, tribes, nations--which is meant. The word for chaotic, unorganized humanity--the mere mass of man is thalassa, the "sea" of men (e.g.) Revelation 13:1 (See Scofield "Revelation[bless and do not curse]13:8") . For "world" (kosmos) in the bad ethical sense, "world system" John 7:7.

So I think all Romans truly says is that sin and death entered into the world as in "mankind", not necessarily the world as in "earth".

 

[dysert]

Yes, that's how I see it. To me, its very difficult to reconcile Genesis 2:17 with a physical death any other way.

As far as the verse in Romans goes

Rom. 5:12
"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned"

I dont know if that necessarily means that death entered into the animal kingdom because of Adam and Eves fall, even though this could very well be the case. We know that sin was already in the "world" because the Serpent was being sinful when he pretty much called God a liar by saying "you shall not surely die" and this was before Adam and Eve had actually sinned. The word "world" in Romans 5:12 is "Kosmos", and here is scofields definition of "Kosmos."

world

The Greek word kosmos means "order," "arrangement," and so, with the Greeks, "beauty"; for order and arrangement in the sense of system are at the bottom of the Greek conception of beauty.

When used in the N.T. of humanity, the "world" of men, it is organized humanity-- humanity in families, tribes, nations--which is meant. The word for chaotic, unorganized humanity--the mere mass of man is thalassa, the "sea" of men (e.g.) Revelation 13:1 (See Scofield "Revelation[bless and do not curse]13:8") . For "world" (kosmos) in the bad ethical sense, "world system" John 7:7.

So I think all Romans truly says is that sin and death entered into the world as in "mankind", not necessarily the world as in "earth".

Thanks, Christopher. Please believe me that I'm not arguing or debating -- I'm just posing questions that I'd pose to myself in order to more fully understand what's going on...

Re the Genesis verse, it sounds like you assume that the death spoken of was physical, and then you explain it by concluding that the "day" must have meant 1000 years. Do I understand your thinking?

Re the Romans verse, it sounds like you're thinking that it probably does not include animal death? (After all, animals are not capable of sinning.)

Thanks.

 

[Christophercbm]

Thanks, Christopher. Please believe me that I'm not arguing or debating -- I'm just posing questions that I'd pose to myself in order to more fully understand what's going on... Yeah, I'm not arguing either because I'm still not sure about it myself, but its something I have thought about so I was just throwing some food for thought out there

Re the Genesis verse, it sounds like you assume that the death spoken of was physical, and then you explain it by concluding that the "day" must have meant 1000 years. Do I understand your thinking? Yes, because it says that "in that day you shall surely day" and they didn't die that very same day, so in my mind, either it was only referring to a spiritual death, or "day" meant more than just a 24 hour day. Though I guess it could be that the spiritual death came first, and the much later physical death was a natural result of that

Re the Romans verse, it sounds like you're thinking that it probably does not include animal death? (After all, animals are not capable of sinning.) I have my doubts as to whether or not it includes animal death, because the word "world" doesn't necessarily mean planet earth, but it can just simply mean "humanity". Like if I were to say, "I'm no longer living out in the world", that doesnt mean I'm no longer living in the world, just that I'm not living in the ways of man. So I guess you could say it like this...."Through one man, sin entered into humanity"

Thanks.

My replies are above ^^^

 

[Clare73]

I've been wondering lately about the concept of death as it is referenced in Gen. 2:17 and in Rom. 5:12. I've pretty much always thought that when Adam & Eve sinned, the death they experienced was a spiritual death because they obviously didn't physically die when they ate from the Tree of Knowledge. Assuming this is true, then wouldn't Rom. 5:12 also be referring to spiritual death instead of a physical death? For your reference, here are the two verses (NKJV):

Gen. 2:17
"but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Rom. 5:12
"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned"

Your thoughts?

No, in context, Paul is addressing why there was physical death from Adm to Moses,
when death is caused by sin (Ro 6:23) and sin is lawbreaking (1Jn 3:4), but there was no law to break,
and therefore no sin was taken into account between Adam and Moses (Ro 4:15, 5:13).

And yet death reigned from Adam to Moses (Ro 5:14) over those who broke no law and, therefore, did not sin.
So whose sin was everyone guilty of that caused everyone to die?
All between Adam and Moses were guilty of the sin of Adam (Ro 5:18-19), which made them sinners and, therefore, they all died.

We are all born guilty of the sin of Adam.

Paul's purpose is to contrast the first Adam and the second Adam, Jesus (Ro 5:14), where by the first Adam sin was imputed to all, causing all to die, and by the second Adam righteousness is imputed to those who believe in Jesus Christ (Ro 5:18-19), causing them to overcome death.

In the faith,
Clare

 

[Radagast]

nm

 

[def]

The Spirit departed from Adam (spiritual death), and when there is no sustaining power from the Spirit, Adam's body eventually died. "Thus death spread to all men" because we are physically born without the Spirit.

God shows mercy, and introduced plan C. To those who believe Jesus is the Christ and that he was raised from the death, they are given the Spirit, who indwells believers. Thus, providing the life sustaining power for our spirit. They are born again!

Therefore, the death referred to in Romans 5:12 is spiritual.

 

[Louisanareason]

They are talking about the death of their innocents.

 

[Clare73]

I've been wondering lately about the concept of death as it is referenced in Gen. 2:17 and in Rom. 5:12. I've pretty much always thought that when Adam & Eve sinned, the death they experienced was a spiritual death because they obviously didn't physically die when they ate from the Tree of Knowledge. Assuming this is true, then
wouldn't Rom. 5:12 also be referring to spiritual death instead of a physical death? For your reference, here are the two verses (NKJV):

Gen. 2:17
"but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Rom. 5:12
"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned"

Your thoughts?

Spiritual death does not mean man's spirit dies, but that it loses Holy Spirit life.
Man's spirit is immortal, and does not die.

Adam's spirit lost Holy Spirit life (spiritual death) when he broke God's law, "Thou shalt not eat of it," which was shown by his physical death at the end of his life.

We are born with Adam's loss of Holy Spirit life (in spiritual death--Col 2:13; Eph 2:1) and likewise subject to physical death.

But the death being dealt with in Ro 5:12-21 is physical death, as is seen in v. 14.

 

[lewiley]

It must have been plan A since Christ was crucified before the foundation of the world.

Some commentators consider the death in Gen. 2:17 as a death sentence. I think it was spiritual death. Jesus didn't sin, therefore he was not under the curse. Other than his spiritual life he looked and grew like everyone else. Just a thought.

Notice also the Hebrew construction with the infinitive, "dying die" which is translated "surely die". Eve only says "die". Slightly different.

 

[twinc]

there was no sin or death before the Fall - sin and death,even that of animals, entered the world by one man via the serpent[the devil] - this is clearly stated but only in Catholic bibles - God and death are incompatible and death was not invented by God but entered the world via the devil - twinc

 

[random person]

The death both of these verses speaking about is spiritual death caused by sin.It is sin-death. Not physical death.

It is speaking solely of spiritual death. Spiritual death also equates eternal separation from God. Thus Adam and Eve were cast out of the garden.

Adam and Eve weren't ever immortal. Neither were the animals. Predators aren't the creation of the Devil. They are creations of God too. They have a role and a purpose.

Jesus raised us up back into fellowship with God. Jesus raised us back into the presence of God.

The Resurrection becomes our reality upon death Revelation 14:13.

 

[Johnnz]

there was no sin or death before the Fall - sin and death,even that of animals, entered the world by one man via the serpent[the devil] - this is clearly stated but only in Catholic bibles - God and death are incompatible and death was not invented by God but entered the world via the devil - twinc

That is not necessarily true. The couple had not eaten of the tree of life. They were not created immortal, nor was the rest of creation. Something had to die for them to eat.

Death as we know it now arose post-Fall. That will be abolished at the resurrection and death itself is destroyed. That terminology may suggest death relates to a spiritual reality which has some temporary dominion until Jesus returns. Paul certainly spoke of death reigning until Jesus broke its hold.

John
NZ

 

[ewq1938]

I've been wondering lately about the concept of death as it is referenced in Gen. 2:17 and in Rom. 5:12. I've pretty much always thought that when Adam & Eve sinned, the death they experienced was a spiritual death because they obviously didn't physically die when they ate from the Tree of Knowledge. Assuming this is true, then wouldn't Rom. 5:12 also be referring to spiritual death instead of a physical death? For your reference, here are the two verses (NKJV):

Gen. 2:17
"but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Rom. 5:12
"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned"

Your thoughts?

Yes, you are correct about what type of death sin brings. The more popular interpretation is of course that sin brought about mortality but mortality is natural for mortal beings with or without sin.

 

[orbiter]

Peace to my brothers and sisters in Christ.

I am thinking that it is physical death. Our bodies are already “dead” because of sin. We are the "walking dead" so to speak. Sin is what comes out of our mouths and defiles the whole body. Talk is certainly not cheap as the wages of sin is death to the mortal body.

Romans 8:6-14 KJV
(6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
(7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
(8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
(9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The mortal body is already “dead” because of sin…but if we live always according to the Spirit, then the Spirit of Him that raised Jesus from the dead shall also make alive our “mortal” (subject to death) bodies.

(10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
(11) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
(12) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

If we live after the flesh (envy and strife, hatred of one another, etc), then we shall die…our mortal bodies shall die.

(13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
(14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Death and life are in the power (hand) of the tongue and those that love it shall eat of the fruit thereof. But the tongue is the "weaker vessel" to the hidden man of the heart of which we are to rule over.

Proverbs 18:20-22 KJV
(20) A man's belly shall be satisfied with the fruit of his mouth; and with the increase of his lips shall he be filled.
(21) Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.
(22) Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD.

We are free to eat of every tree of the garden ….

Genesis 2:16-17 KJV
(16) And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

….that is, there is no law against the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance…..

Galatians 5:22-26 KJV
(22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
(23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
(24) And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
(25) If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

….but there is a law of “sin and death” in the eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil as we shall surely die from doing so. The woman in the garden desired to be seen as wise and provoked another by speaking evil of another. This is living after the flesh...the wisdom that is earthy, sensual, devilish and not of the wisdom that is above.

(26) Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

The woman that listened to the lie of the serpent added her own external commandment to the commandment of God. Men judge each other over their external commandments of men.

Genesis 3:1-5 KJV
(1) Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
(2) And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

She added the external commandment: “neither shall you touch it”.

(3) But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

The serpent then starts the lie with a “peace and safety” message: “you shall not surely die”. It should be literally translated as “dying, you shall not die”…or “killing, you shall not die”.

(4) And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Then adds “for God does know”….which is saying that you are doing God service (as a judge for Him in His name or authority) for practicing the lie.

The LIE continues: In the day you eat thereof, “your eyes shall be opened”…..that is, you shall be seen as “wise” and you shall be as “gods”….which in the Hebrew is “Elohim” which also means “JUDGES” who know what (and whom) is good and evil.

In other words, the lie deceives us into thinking that we are “wise” (as we know what is good and evil) when we judge another supposedly in God’s authority when we speak evil of another. Many call others “evil doers” because they don’t follow their particular denomination’s external commandments of men. "gods" = "judges" who know what is good and evil in their own eyes thinking that they are doing God service as His representatives. But this is not practicing love for one another which gives us His life.

(5) For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

When we speak evil of our brothers, we are acting as JUDGES (“you shall be as gods” …Elohim=judges). We are not then a DOER of the law of Christ who delivered unto us the holy commandment to have love for one another.

James 4:11-12 KJV
(11) Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

There is only ONE Lawgiver who is able to save and to destroy and that is God. Why should anyone judge another brother over an added external commandment of man which he has wrested out of the Scriptures to his own destruction?

(12) There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

Out of the same mouth proceeds blessing of God AND cursing of other men who are made in the similitude of God. This should not be so. We are not blessing God by cursing others. We are not acting as judges in His name when we do these things.

James 3:8-18 KJV
(8) But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
(9) Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
(10) Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
(11) Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

We can not be a "good tree" when we speak evil of others as "judges" supposedly for God. We are not judge, jury and executioner of others. There is only ONE Judge of others in heaven.

(12) Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

The woman in the garden desired to be seen as “wise” and partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. She spoke evil of another thinking that she was doing God “service” for doing so which is part of THE lie of the serpent.

Instead, the truly wise and endued with knowledge among us are to show out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom....not with pride and envy.

(13) Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

The woman in the garden was deceived by the devilish wisdom from the earth and spoke evil of another.

(14) But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.

(15) This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
(16) For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
(17) But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
(18) And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

“You shall surely not die” should be literally translated “dying, you shall not die”. That is, by “killing” another with the tongue that speaks evil, you shall have “peace and safety”…which is not true. Those who “kill” another with their judging think that they are doing God “service” for doing so….the lie.

John 16:1-3 KJV
(1) These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.
(2) They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
(3) And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit. Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. Death and life are in the power of the tongue and those who love it shall eat the fruit of it.

Matthew 7:15-23 KJV
(15) Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
(16) Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
(17) Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
(18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
(19) Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
(20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

“For God does know” is saying we have done all of these supposed “wonderful works” in His name…that is in His authority. We are not judges for God as there in only One Lawgiver. We must not cast out others names “as devils” just because we think we know what or who is good or evil. We are not doers of the Law of Christ (to have love for one another) when we judge/speak evil of our brothers by calling them “evil doers” or “devils”, etc . We must do the will of our Father which is in heaven and not hide behind the fig leaves of "Lord, Lord".

"in thy name"= doing these works of iniquity supposedly in His authority.


(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

“Touch not” was an added commandment by which the woman in her desire to be seen as wise partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and spoke evil of another (judging another), Men are perishing because of the commandments and doctrines of men that they are subject to and use them as a basis for speaking evil of each other which is not fulfilling the Law of Christ to have love for one another.

Colossians 2:20-23 KJV
(20) Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
(21) (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
(22) Which all are to perish with the using) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
(23) Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Peace.