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Featured Dear pretribber, what makes Israel so important?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by ByTheSpirit, Jul 15, 2017.

  1. ByTheSpirit

    ByTheSpirit Pray always!!

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    Those of you who hold unswervingly to the unbiblical doctrine of the pretribulation rapture, I have a question for you:

    What makes the Tribulation generation of Israel/Jews so important that God saves them by the return of Jesus and not the millions of Jews that lived before?

    What I mean is the doctrine teaches the church is raptured, the antichrist comes and makes a 7 yr pact with Israel that he breaks halfway then starts a terrible persecution against Jews, they are only saved by the return of Jesus and the church at which time he will pardon all Israel's sin. Right?

    So my question is what makes that generation of Jews so important that God grants them forgiveness and salvation while the millions who died before get no such favor?
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2017
  2. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Not my faulty.

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    Do you have the same concern about the Gentiles? What makes the post-resurrection Gentiles so important that God sent countless Christians from Jerusalem among them so that they might hear the gospel and untold millions/billions are saved through the centuries as a result? It's certainly not something He did pre-resurrection.

    What's your obsession with that set of Jews anyway? It's at that time He'll be setting up His kingdom on earth. The unsaved won't be there at the beginning. The Jews that enter that kingdom will also be believers, by default.
     
  3. dysert

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    You've posed a philosophical question and not a biblical one, but I'll take a stab anyway. There are favored generations and unfavored generations sometimes. What made Abraham favored to the point where God chose him to eventually raise up the nation of Israel? And what about the generation of Hebrews who were freed from Egyptian bondage? Why didn't God favor the previous generation of slaves? While we're at it, why did God favor the Twelve? Why didn't He wait until now to come to earth so that more people could get to see Him?

    I hope you get my point. There's really no answer to the "why" questions about God's timing. He is sovereign. He chooses the generations He wants for certain times that He wants. I doubt we'll know why until His return and we can ask Him.
     
  4. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    You have asked two distinct questions, and made an unprovable assertion.

    Your first question (in importance) is why would God favor "the Jews." In the first place, the term "the Jews" is not quite accurate, although many state it in that way. The correct term is "Israel." And our reason for insisting on this favor and eventual blessing of that nation is that God has explicitly declared it, in plain, clear language, and in more ways and places that can be easily counted.

    This promise of favor and an eventual blessing, was first promised to Abraham, then, later to the nation of Israel, and then to the two sub-nations of Judah and Ephraim. And finally, it was explicitly repeated by name to each of the twelve tribes of Israel. This promise was made in such clear plain language that it is simple unbelief to deny it.

    Associated with this question is one you seemed to imply, even though I do not remember your explicitly stating it. And that is, why would God favor this nation above others? You seemed to imply that such a favoring of one articular nation would be unfair. God's own answer to this accusation is "He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?' But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, 'Why have you made me like this?' " Romans 9:18-20

    So God's basic answers to this is, "Shut up. You have no say in this matter."

    Your next question is, why that particular generation, and not any other generation? First, the answer about the timing is the same. God has His own timetable, and when He decides to keep his promises is nobody's business except His own.

    But this question shows not only unbelief and rebellion against the explicitly stated word of God, but a profound lack of understanding of what it says. For this blessing is not for a single generation, but for all generations after it is finally kept. Nor is it for a single nation, but for the entire world, once the time has come.

    God has explicitly told us the reason for his delay in keeping these promises. And that is "But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:8-9

    When God comes to bless Israel, He will also come to judge the world. and His delay on keeping his promises is due to the fact that He is continuing the time in which He offers all man a free and full pardon. But in the same passage I just quoted, God goes on the say, " But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up." 2 Peter 3:10

    Finally, you allege that the doctrine of the pre=tribulation rapture is unscriptural. But the only way you can "prove" this claim, is to assume that certain words in scripture have certain meanings. ALL positions on the timing of the rapture are based on such assumptions about the meanings of certain words used in scripture. If one set of assumptions about the meanings of these words is used, one conclusion is obvious. But if another set of conclusions about the meanings of these same words is used, a different conclusion is obvious. So your claim about this is unprovable.
     
  5. inquiring mind

    inquiring mind associate with those you can learn from Supporter Angels Team CF Ambassadors

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    I agree, the Bible is more of an unfolding story regarding future events (of what happens and not so much a complete explanation of God’s why), but I guess just in the context of the unfolding story Jesus comes back then because the antichrist is about to annihilate the remnant of Jews (the last of God’s chosen people) and He doesn’t want that to happen. At this point the remnant finally turns to and accepts Jesus as the Messiah. That’s what God wants all along and contextually speaking it is that moment in time when Jesus returns. I don’t guess it has anything to do with favoring that particular group, it’s just that point on His timeline.
     
  6. LastSeven

    LastSeven Veteran Supporter

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    To summarize all the answers so far: "I dunno dude".
     
  7. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Ethnic Judah, the Jewish State of Israel, is not a body of God's people in addition to the Church, as if God had two separate bodies of saints. The non-Christian Jewish people, are not at present a people of God at all.

    On the other hand, God is not forever done with them, and does not treat or view the ethnic, unbelieving Jews, as He does all other ungodly peoples. He treats them much more severely, because they have the Law and the Prophets, while rejecting the Messiah. Yet at the end of this age, God will take some of the Jews and bring them into the one Body of Christ, with subsequent special blessings to them and their children for one thousand years.

    We can view true believers as Israel while not supporting Replacement Theology.

    Pre-tribbers making this accusation, do so to protect their Two People, Two Promises position, vital for supporting their pre-trib rapture theory. That is: when God’s holy people are depicted in the Bible as living on earth during the final 7 years of this era; Danil 7:25 & Revelation 13:7, pre-tribbers must see them as ethnic Israel, rather than Church saints. Why? In order to believe that Church saints are not on earth during the Week. Thus, they wrongly proclaim two separate bodies of saints, and that each one is treated differently according to their different dispensations. So now you know why pre-tribbers invented yet another error, their Dispensation Theology: to accommodate the TP-TP view.

    It is not enough for pre-tribbers to prove what we already know, that the Jewish people will be dealt with by God in the last days, and that Jesus will then set up a Kingdom of Israel on earth that He will rule for 1000 years. That being true, it doesn't make the ethnic Jews a Body of God's people between the Crucifixion and the Return of Jesus. Jews not joining the Church by faith in Jesus, are not to be viewed as a second Body of God, and ethnic Jews destined to be saved are now and will be, incorporated into the one Body of God: the true Christian Church.

    I do not espouse Replacement Theology, because I acknowledge that God still has plans for ethnic Israel. According to numerous prophesies, the overall Plan will first begin with God's wrath against the Jews, which plainly shows they are not saints or the elect, as pre-tribbers wrongly maintain and it is only a remnant who will change. Now, for pointing out this forthcoming judgement/punishment of Judah, Luke 19:27, Ezekiel 21:1-8, Amos 2:4-5, the pre-tribbers will accuse me, for being anti-Semitic, a false and extremely unchristian accusation!



    The wrong and unscriptural belief in a rapture removal to heaven before the wrath of God comes, teaches the Christian people not to prepare for life in the last few years of this age, so the rapture lie will be responsible for much suffering in the Church.

    Do not be deceived. God did not "replace" Israel with the Church, but Old-Testament Israel and the New-Testament Church are one, and have always been one. It was the leadership of Israel that was replaced at the Cross, given to the Apostles when taken away from the Sanhedrin/Pharisees, but this in no way means that Jesus started a new Body called the "Church." Old-Testament Israel was the Church, Acts 7:38

    Indeed, the "church of Israel" is a phrase found throughout the Old Testament...over a hundred times...but usually translated into our English Bibles as "congregation or assembly of Israel"

    The simple and obvious truth, is that the Christian Church is the one, true Israel of God and they remain on earth to fulfil their God given tasks and destiny.
     
  8. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    Because they REPENT and TURN to God by Accepting Jesus as the Messiah.

    THIS QUESTION WAS ASKED ME ONCE.........Can a person be a child of God just because they are a direct descendant of Abraham, but have rejected Christ? Isn't Israel and the church one and the same? So I did an in depth Exegesis on the Subject and this was my finding.

    EXEGESIS ON THE CHURCH AND ISRAEL (My answer to the question included)

    No, but you can be a child of Abraham and there is Spiritual Abraham and Physical Abraham, both can be spoken of in various ways. So when Paul speaks of BLIND ISRAEL.........Is he speaking of Abraham's descendants or not? Those who believe Israel and the Church are one and the same infer their is no Israel, but Paul says they are Israel, but that they are JUST BLIND, in part..

    Paul is trying to point something out by using a demonstration, and its not being picked up on by the Israel and the Church is one and the same crowd. He is pointing out ISRAEL HAS BEEN BLINDED for an appointed time. Then he speaks about Israel's true seed being of the BELIEVERS LIKENED UNTO ABRAHAM..............Well, OK, we all understand this. But where does it say that Israel are not descendants of Abraham, the chosen people of God? Oh, I get it, the Israel and the Church are one and the same crowd think because Paul said not all Israel is Israel that they are not Gods chosen people, BUT....... they missed something right in front of their very eyes, that should be evident.


    Romans 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: (You see, they are still ISRAEL IN THE FLESH....This seems to not be understood.) 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises.....

    We have always understood that not all Jew go to Heaven. Why do the Israel and the Church are one guys not understand that this is a forgone conclusion? Many of Israels Kings were wicked and are in hell or will be in hell shortly. So....that's abundantly clear, not all who are born unto the SEED of Abraham are GODS PEOPLE, but those who live by FAITH and OBEY God are His true SEED. That has always been understood. BUT...........Israel is still the chosen people of God, and He will call them to repentance before the Day of the Lord, thus ALL ISRAEL will be Saved. Not every Jew, but Israel as a Nation will be preserved. This is EASILY PROVED. Follow along here for a brief time:

    As a matter of fact, there is an inference here in Romans ch. 9 that seems to be missed by the people who follow this line of logic. Paul is speaking of Jacob, he says the ELDER shall serve the YOUNGER. Do people not understand that in this very chapter Paul is telling Israel that God is taking the mantle away from the ELDER (Israel) and making him sever the YOUNGER (GENTILE CHURCH) !!

    Paul talks to the Romans, trying to tell them not to get the big head, thinking that they are special in comparison with the Jewish peoples, for it is Gods will being done, it is not that the GENTILES ARE SPECIAL. Then he points out what Hosea says in verse 25.....

    Romans 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her (Gentiles/Church) beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

    27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved.

    30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

    32 Wherefore?(WHY) Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

    I Wonder if they see the error of their ways? Paul is calling the UNBELIEVING nation of Israel....ISRAEL in verse 31 !! It seems the Israel & the Church are one crowd are confused as to what Paul is speaking about here, he is speaking about the ELDER (Israel) serving the YOUNGER (Gentile/Church) because God elected them to serve Him, just like he elected Jacob instead of Esau !!


    Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. (AGAIN, Paul calls them ISRAEL.)

    Then the next 10 or so verses speaks about Faith in Christ, and then Paul says this in verse 12:

    Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

    Nowhere is Paul saying that the Jews and the Gentiles/Greeks are the same, only that they ALL COME TO GOD/CHRIST VIA FAITH in like manner, Paul still called Israel ISRAEL in verse one in this very Chapter. In the previous chapter Paul is pointing out that the ELDER will serve the YOUNGER. Israel's mantel is given to the Gentiles.

    The next few verses, Paul speaks about how hearing the word creates faith, and we have to have preachers sent to preach to hear, and that whosoever shall call upon the name of Jesus will be saved etc. etc. Then Paul says this:

    Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

    19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

    This is Paul, saying the MANTLE has been passed from Israel, to the Gentiles, the ELDER is serving the YOUNGER because God chose it that way, because He saw unbelief in the ELDER, and the YOUNGER BELIEVED God. Thus God will use them to PROVOKE ISRAEL....There it is again, Paul is differentiating the TWO right here. He is saying that God will use the Gentiles to provoke ISRAEL TO JEALOUSY !! There is a Gentile Church and an Israel Nation.


    Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. { Paul is not talking about the CHURCH HERE !! }

    2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot (know) ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

    4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. {God isn't speaking about the CHURCH HERE}

    5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. {The Church does not have a Spirit of Slumber but Israel does. DIFFERENT ENTITIES.}

    11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. { Paul is speaking about TWO ENTITIES, the Gentile Church and ISRAEL how can everyone not see this !! }

    12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? (ISRAEL'S)

    13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

    {{ Paul is still speaking about ISRAEL in a SINGULAR MANNER vs the Gentile World or Gentile Church. Israel as a Nation, not Israel as the Church and the JEWS !! People have to dig out these fast truths and quit listening to MEN WHO DECEIVE WITH LYING TONGUES, it is right here in scriptures, dig it out. }}

    17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

    19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

    22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. {THEY = Israel}

    24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? {Paul is speaking of TWO ENTITIES again, the Church and Israel, the Olive Tree is their own Olive tree, the Gentiles are the Wild Olive tree that has been GRAFTED IN.}

    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    {{ Paul is saying here, hey Gentile/Roman Church, do not get the BIG HEAD thinking you are better than my Brother Jews, blindness IN PART has come upon them, only until the fullness of the GENTILES IS COME IN, or until the time of the YOUNGER (Gentile Church) is finished. There are some Messianic Jews and will always be, thus Israel is blinded IN PART, but there will come a time, when the Gentile Church's mission is finished, Then God WILL LIFT Israels blindness, [there will be 144,000 Jewish Men of God that follow Jesus everywhere he goes, and Elijah will turn Israel BACK TO GOD, Before the Day of the LORD !! Amen.] and ALL ISRAEL will be Saved. Meaning Israel as a Country comes back to God, and God blesses them and protects them, because they accept Jesus as THEIR MESSIAH !! The word of God never fails. Amen. }}

    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: ..... Jacob !!! NOT CHURCH.

    27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

    {{ Notice the TWO ENTITIES AGAIN ? Its a trend gentlemen..............If people just take notice, its there. They are/ISRAEL/JACOB and YOUR SAKE/The Gentile Church of Rome, its a plain as day my friends. }}


    29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

    31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through YOUR mercy THEY also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

    Via the Gentile Churches MERCY, God will thus ultimately have Mercy upon Israel. They will remember the Church's sayings, and they will remember that Jesus was THE CHURCHES GOD, and that they said all of these things will come to pass, and when Paul's writings start coming to pass, and Revelation comes to pass, and when the Church is Raptured via 100's of millions of Christian's dying at once, Israel/Jews will understand, and when Elijah comes back preaching this same Gospel (Jesus Crucified), Israel will understand in full the error of their ways, it will hit them like a ton of bricks........BOOM, Jesus is our Messiah, the scales will be lifted off of their eyes, and ALL ISRAEL (As a Nation) will be Saved. Or turn to God. (Zechariah 12:10 and 13:1 and Malachi 4:5-6).

    This whole idea of taking a verse here or there out of context is a NO NO in how we are to observe the Scriptures. Its here a little, there a little, line upon line and precept upon precept. We see Paul speaking throughout Romans chapters 9-11 about the Gentile Church and Israel as SEPARATE ENTITIES continually, yet some try to force THE CHURCH IS ISRAEL false doctrine on the world. It is a documented FALSEHOOD, and anyone that studies it just a little bit will understand that, I call it Christians being lackadaisical.

    The Church is not ISRAEL..........And Paul never says this, he is ONLY SHOWING how all men must come to God via FAITH ALONE, after all, it is by Faith in Christ Jesus that we are SAVED, not by Works, lest any man should boast.

    We all come to Christ by Faith. The Church and Messianic Jews who are Raptured. Also the REMNANT of the Church who come to Christ after the Rapture as well as the Jewish peoples who turn unto their Messiah after the Rapture must all do so by accepting Jesus Christ as the Messiah and Savior. Through his Blood all parties are saved. So THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE.........That is true, but there is a Church and an Israel. That is just a fact of life.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2017
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  9. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Yes R.T., your good post #8, makes the point that a remnant of ethnic Israel will be saved. Romans 9:27
    This proves that the bulk of the new Israel, will not be Jewish, but as scripture plainly says: people from every tribe, race, nation and language, Isaiah 66:18b, Revelation 5:9-10
    And they are all the One people of God. There is no special salvation for the current inhabitants of Israel, so as to allow the 'church' to flit off to heaven!
     
  10. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    Hi ByTheSpirit,

    All people, who do not know of Jesus, will be judged upon how they acted according to their conscience.

    `Then O saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and the books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the book of life.

    And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.` (Rev. 20: 11 & 12)

    Those in the OT who believed God, came under Israel`s promises, but were often tortured etc for their belief. (Heb. 11: 35 - 38) Those in the Body of Christ, born in the last 2 centuries, have also been tortured, killed, alienated from families etc for their belief.

    Part of what you are thinking has to do with when we were born, then how we responded to the revelation given to us, or conscience, and what part of God`s purposes in time, we are in.

    `...the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one`s work,....` (1 Peter 1: 17)

    Marilyn.
     
  11. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    Rev. 4, 5, 7 and 19 is the Raptured Church in Heaven.

    Then there is a REMNANT Church on he Earth for the Tribulation. And There are Messianic Jews that were Raptured as a part of the Church and there will be an Israel that Jesus resides with in Jerusalem for the 1000 year reign. They came to accept the Messiah after the Rapture just like the Remnant of the Church.

    And they all come to the Messiah via the Blood. But they do not come at the same time, AND its very evident God has different plans, the REMNANT of the Church is NOT PROTECTED but the Jews that FLEE unto the Wilderness ARE PROTECTED.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2017
  12. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    Hi Revealing Times,

    There is no such thing as a remnant Church, separated from the rest of the Body.

    `...till we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.` (Eph. 4: 13)

    This is a complete, mature, Body of Christ, with each member set in place by the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor.12: 18)

    Marilyn.
     
  13. imsaneru

    imsaneru New Member

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    The prophet Daniel was told that he would stand in his lot at the end of days , and this was pre Jesus so we might want to think about that.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2017
  14. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.
    Therefore, the Church and Israel cannot be separated, no matter what Dispensationalists say in an attempt to make their Two Peoples of God doctrine work.



    On the Day of Pentecost Peter addressed the crowd as "men of Judea", then as "men of Israel", and in Acts 2:36 as "all the house of Israel". On that day about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant of Christ.
    When the Church first began almost all of its members were Israelites.

    All of the Israelites were not partially blinded.
    Part were blinded, and part were like Paul in Romans 11:1-5. They were not blinded.


    The New Covenant was made first with Israel. The Gentiles were grafted in several years later.
    This is a scriptural and historical fact that cannot be denied by those who are honest with the text.


    The Olive Tree of Romans 11 is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one tree. Paul said the branches broken off can be grafted back, through faith in Christ. Paul provided no other way of salvation in the passage, outside of the New Covenant Church.

    In Matthew 21 Christ says the kingdom would be taken from those who reject the "chief cornerstone" and it would be given to another nation.
    The "holy nation" that accepted the "chief cornerstone" in found in 1 Peter 2:4-10.


    The ultimate fulfillment of Israel is Jesus Christ.
    This is found in Matthew 1:1, and is confirmed by Paul in Galatians 3:16.


    The New Covenant is about Grace, instead of race.

    1Ti 1:4  nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith. 

    .
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2017
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  15. inquiring mind

    inquiring mind associate with those you can learn from Supporter Angels Team CF Ambassadors

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    Great posts Revealing Times and BABerean2, highlighting the opposing views regarding a separate Church and Israel.
     
  16. VARZR

    VARZR New Member

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    I read the Bible to say that most of the Jews living in Israel will be killed or persecuted by the antichrist. The only pre return mercy shown to the Jews is the sealing of the 144k.
     
  17. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    That's not what the scriptures say my dear friend in Christ.

    The Dragon chased the Woman (Israel) into the Wilderness, and when he could not get to her because God protected her he came after the REMNANT of the Church in Rev. 12:17.

    Rev. 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Who is Israels seed? Jesus of course was the PROMISED SEED, of course !! Read Galatians chapter 3. Read Genesis.

    So who is the REMNANT of her SEED (Jesus) ? Well its the Christians who keep the commandments of God AND have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Remnant definition = SMALL PART THAT IS LEFT.

    Israel is Protected. The Remnant has to be the Church that is on earth, vs the church that was Raptured which is in Heaven. The 5 Virgins that were not ready were shut out of the Wedding.
     
  18. parousia70

    parousia70 Goin' where the Wind don't blow so strange Supporter

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    Kinda makes modern day Christian "support for Israel" somewhat sinister don't ya think?

    "We support Israel so that sometime soon (note that its always, "soon") most of them can be brutally massacred..."
     
  19. VARZR

    VARZR New Member

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    There is a decent chance that the attack happens when the west stops supporting Israel.
     
  20. parousia70

    parousia70 Goin' where the Wind don't blow so strange Supporter

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    Well then it's a good thing the West's support for Israel has given it all this time for it to build up its population so they can all be slaughtered then, huh?
     
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