Dear Calvinist, why should I pray?

[ByTheSpirit]

With the recent influx of Calvinistic themed threads I would like to ask the following question.

If God determines all things in advance sonas to rule out any and all human action, why do we as Christians need to pray? For that matter why even evangelize? Why go to church?

It seems to me that if God has predestined us to be conformed to his son (Romans 8:29) and there is nothing any of us can do to effect that as some claim (not just here on CF) why even have spiritual disciplines?

Why even care if God is going to do what he wants when he wants with/without my involvement?

 

[dannheim]

I completely agree. The doctrine is flawed and presents fatalism and predetermination resulting in a an exclusive membership. Christ's teachings never taught this and they will go to extremes to dissect words to support their Theory which offers nothing but helplessness to those who supposedly are unsaved and never can be which is in direct contradiction to the gospel.

 

[jhwatts]

My answer to this question is simply the scripture instructs us to do so. Gods word is the final authority and therefore I need no other reason to do so.

 

[Angel Wings 1288]

With the recent influx of Calvinistic themed threads I would like to ask the following question.

If God determines all things in advance sonas to rule out any and all human action, why do we as Christians need to pray? For that matter why even evangelize? Why go to church?

It seems to me that if God has predestined us to be conformed to his son (Romans 8:29) and there is nothing any of us can do to effect that as some claim (not just here on CF) why even have spiritual disciplines?

Why even care if God is going to do what he wants when he wants with/without my involvement?

You make good points. Here is something else for Calvinists to consider:

- If a Christian gets sick and God has determined that he will recover from the illness, then he or she will recover whether they call a doctor or not.

- Similarly, if God has determined that a sick Christian will not recover, he or she will die whether they call a doctor or not.

- But God has either determined that the Christian will recover or not recover from the illness.

- Therefore consulting a doctor is pointless.

Let me know what you think.

 

[sdowney717]

You make good points. Here is something else for Calvinists to consider:

- If a Christian gets sick and God has determined that he will recover from the illness, then he or she will recover whether they call a doctor or not.

- Similarly, if God has determined that a sick Christian will not recover, he or she will die whether they call a doctor or not.

- But God has either determined that the Christian will recover or not recover from the illness.

- Therefore consulting a doctor is pointless.

Let me know what you think.

I guess James was a Calvinist then...
Please Watch out note v16! I would say your comment reveals your own arrogance.
James 4
13 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a profit”; 14 whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what isyour life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away. 15 Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that.”

16 But now you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.

 

[jhwatts]

You make good points. Here is something else for Calvinists to consider:

- If a Christian gets sick and God has determined that he will recover from the illness, then he or she will recover whether they call a doctor or not.

- Similarly, if God has determined that a sick Christian will not recover, he or she will die whether they call a doctor or not.

- But God has either determined that the Christian will recover or not recover from the illness.

- Therefore consulting a doctor is pointless.

Let me know what you think.

If a interaction with the doctor is required by Gods predetermined path then they will visit the doctor regardless.

Something for the Arminian to consider. If Christ wants all men to be saved. Is he a failure because all men will not?

 

[dogs4thewin]

If a interaction with the doctor is required by Gods predetermined path then they will visit the doctor regardless.

Something for the Arminian to consider. If Christ wants all men to be saved. Is he a failure because all men will not?

No, Christ does not want to force us to love Him. We were not designed to be robots.

 

[sdowney717]

You make good points. Here is something else for Calvinists to consider:

- If a Christian gets sick and God has determined that he will recover from the illness, then he or she will recover whether they call a doctor or not.

- Similarly, if God has determined that a sick Christian will not recover, he or she will die whether they call a doctor or not.

- But God has either determined that the Christian will recover or not recover from the illness.

- Therefore consulting a doctor is pointless.

Let me know what you think.

Daniel 5
20 But when his heart was lifted up, and his spirit was hardened in pride, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him. 21 Then he was driven from the sons of men, his heart was made like the beasts, and his dwelling was with the wild donkeys. They fed him with grass like oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till he knew that the Most High God rules in the kingdom of men, and appoints over it whomever He chooses.

22 “But you his son, Belshazzar, have not humbled your heart, although you knew all this. 23 And you have lifted yourself up against the Lord of heaven. They have brought the vessels of His house before you, and you and your lords, your wives and your concubines, have drunk wine from them. And you have praised the gods of silver and gold, bronze and iron, wood and stone, which do not see or hear or know; and the God who holds your breath in His hand and owns all your ways, you have not glorified. 24 Then the fingers of the hand were sent from Him, and this writing was written.

25 “And this is the inscription that was written:

MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN.

 

[Angel Wings 1288]

I guess James was a Calvinist then...
Please Watch out note v16! I would say your comment reveals your own arrogance.
James 4
13 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a profit”; 14 whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what isyour life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away. 15 Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that.”

16 But now you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.

So you are arguing that James is a Calvinist, and you're supporting your thesis with some vague Bible scripture that doesn't really prove your point. Then you went on to call me, a very calm person who has no arrogance, arrogant for no obvious reason. Projection much?

 

[Angel Wings 1288]

Daniel 5
20 But when his heart was lifted up, and his spirit was hardened in pride, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him. 21 Then he was driven from the sons of men, his heart was made like the beasts, and his dwelling was with the wild donkeys. They fed him with grass like oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till he knew that the Most High God rules in the kingdom of men, and appoints over it whomever He chooses.

22 “But you his son, Belshazzar, have not humbled your heart, although you knew all this. 23 And you have lifted yourself up against the Lord of heaven. They have brought the vessels of His house before you, and you and your lords, your wives and your concubines, have drunk wine from them. And you have praised the gods of silver and gold, bronze and iron, wood and stone, which do not see or hear or know; and the God who holds your breath in His hand and owns all your ways, you have not glorified. 24 Then the fingers of the hand were sent from Him, and this writing was written.

25 “And this is the inscription that was written:

MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN.

You didn't even bother to put forth an argument explaining why "owns all of your ways" in scripture means that God determines every event in the universe, including insignificant events like which caterpillars breed with which other caterpillars. Can you explain to me why, if God controls every event in the universe, he is such a "control freak" that he would decide which caterpillars breed?

 

[jhwatts]

No, Christ does not want to force us to love Him. We were not designed to be robots.

By definition that would make him a failure. He didn't accomplish the task he set out to do and therefore he must have failed. That is the logical conclusion, assuming the Arminian perspective is correct.

Another thought. Why does the Arminian pray and ask God to save a particular person? If a person has the power to reject God then God's power is limited and God cannot save anybody without their assistance. The Armianan should pray to God and ask God to try to save that certain person if he can.

 

[sdowney717]

So you are arguing that James is a Calvinist, and you're supporting your thesis with some vague Bible scripture that doesn't really prove your point. Then you went on to call me, a very calm person who has no arrogance, arrogant for no obvious reason. Projection much?

Most people would have noticed the connection, but you are not clearly thinking at all due to your attitude which is really against the scriptures.

 

[Angel Wings 1288]

Most people would have noticed the connection, but you are not clearly thinking at all due to your attitude which is really against the scriptures.

I think you mean to say that I'm "arrogant" because I disagreed with your views, lol.

 

[sdowney717]

I think you mean to say that I'm "arrogant" because I disagreed with your views, lol.

No, your arrogance is showing because of your attitude against the scriptures.
As in James 4.

13 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a profit”; 14 whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away. 15 Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that.” 16 But now you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.

If the Lord wills, you shall live, or if the Lord wills you shall die, then you will die. If the Lord wills your business to succed it will succeed, and also if the Lord wills it to fail, then it will fail.
You specifically were making sport of calvinists claiming the same. yet scripture proves your folly.

 

[sdowney717]

So now, let's hear some more arrogance against the scriptures.
How about considering these, any comments?

Proverbs 16:9
A man’s heart plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps.

Proverbs 16:33
The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the Lord.

Arrogance is saying, there is no fate but what we make.

 

[Angel Wings 1288]

So now, let's hear some more arrogance against the scriptures.
How about considering these, any comments?

Proverbs 16:9
A man’s heart plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps.

Proverbs 16:33
The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the Lord.

Arrogance is saying, there is no fate but what we make.

For the record, I have no idea why I'm responding. When people are arrogant, rude, and condescending like yourself, I usually cut them off and don't bother saying anything more. Since you are continually insulting me, your insults being a projection of your own arrogant attitude, consider yourself fortunate that I'm taking time to speak and reason with you.

I asked you a question earlier, but you ignored it. Nonetheless, I'll ask again.

If God is directing the trajectory of everything in the universe down to the last atom, that would mean God is determining trivial events like which caterpillars breed with other caterpillars.

Explain to me why God wants to determine something so incredibly insignificant like which insects breed with other insects. Please enlighten me and describe in detail why something so unimportant matters to God to the extent that he would divinely intervene and say, "caterpillar A, go forth and make more caterpillars with caterpillar B!" Do not ignore my question a second time.

 

[sdowney717]

For the record, I have no idea why I'm responding. When people are arrogant, rude, and condescending like yourself, I usually cut them off and don't bother saying anything more. Since you are continually insulting me, your insults being a projection of your own arrogant attitude, consider yourself fortunate that I'm taking time to speak and reason with you.

I asked you a question earlier, but you ignored it. Nonetheless, I'll ask again.

If God is directing the trajectory of everything in the universe down to the last atom, that would mean God is determining trivial events like which caterpillars breed with other caterpillars.

Explain to me why God wants to determine something so incredibly insignificant like which insects breed with other insects. Please enlighten me and describe in detail why something so unimportant matters to God to the extent that he would divinely intervene and say, "caterpillar A, go forth and make more caterpillars with caterpillar B!" Do not ignore my question a second time.

Dont worry, I will most certainly not respond again to you.

What's the issue with believing what God has already said about these things? You prefer something else, against the scriptures.
God declares everything that will be from the beginning of time. But your having a problem with this, like some other folks do, probably because you don't like the entire calvinist idea of predestination, the election by grace of those whom He foreknew. You are already locked into your system, and no one can change your mindset but the Holy Spirit.

Do you also comprehend the the fall of man in Eden was predetermined?
Revelation 13:8
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Christ was slain before He was born...
And we who believe, God had already written our names in the Lambs book of life from the foundation of the world. No new names are written there.

Revelations 17:8
And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Ephesians is written to all the saints of God, and clearly states we were chosen in him from before the foundation of the world.
Ephesians 1New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Redemption in Christ
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.



Isaiah 46:9-11New King James Version (NKJV)
9 Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’
11 Calling a bird of prey from the east,
The man who executes My counsel, from a far country.
Indeed I have spoken it;
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it;
I will also do it.

 

[Angel Wings 1288]

Dont worry, I will most certainly not respond again to you.

Considering the fact that you didn't even answer my question in your lengthy rant, it's no wonder you don't want to respond again.

 

[dannheim]

It is the will of the father that all should come to Christ. Free Will gives us that choice.