Dead Faith still saves, Romans 4:5

[d taylor]

Actually I have, but you simply fail to see it.


Yet they still "profess" to be believers and not false prophets. The Bible may declare one to believe based on their confession, yet that does not necessarily mean they are a genuine believer.


Even though we read that Simon was said to have "believed," the remainder of the verse hints at the true object of his belief: "the miracles and signs which were done". In Acts 8:20, Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. Does that sound like a genuine, saved believer to you? Not to me! I see absolute doubt about the legitimacy of Simon's conversion. Simon actually thought he could buy the gift of God with money! Simon followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw. In verses 22-23, Peter went on to tell Simon that he needed to repent of his wickedness and he see's that Simon is poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity. That certainly settles it for me. Simon was NOT a genuine believer and his conversion was bogus.


False. Even though this shallow ground hearer is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved"? First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation. Unlike saving belief/faith, temporary, shallow belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief/faith? It can't.

IN CONTRAST TO - Mark 4:8 - But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. Luke 8:15 says, But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. I understand the rocky soil to represent a person not properly prepared in heart so the seed planted ends up with a lack of "root" (lack of being firmly planted, or established) and good soil represents a person properly preapared in heart who having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keeps it and bears fruit with patience.

In regards to the seed that is sown among thorns, the person hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful, produces nothing, yields nothing. It was choked out before reaching it's desired goal.
IN CONTRAST TO - the seed that fell on good soil, the person hears the word and understands it, who INDEED BEARS FRUIT with patience (perseverance) and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.

All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) Those who produce no results at all are not truly converted. "Faith without works is dead" and only the 4th soil produced crops of any size. There is mention of a difference in the size of the crops, but no consequences or warnings are given to the lesser producers. Only the 4th soil was referred to as "good ground" and produced a crop (fruit) and there is no mention of choking or withering away thereafter.

Since we have different beliefs about The verses in the discussion, no need to continue any other further back and forth's about this.

I see you, as most people defining faith as obedience.

But i will state this observation, i have read on here before you state that you are a mailman

Lets say i believe that, never having actually meet you in person, i am simply taking you at your word. that you are a mailman and believing your claim.

So lets say i go about my life now. Why would i have to do other actions to prove that i believe you are a mailman. Lets says a year later someone makes a comment that you are not a mailman and i read what they wrote and that causes me to stop believing you are a mail man (whether what they wrote is true or not).

So how did that negate my past belief, that you were a mailman, so much so. That you would say my original belief, that you were a mailman, was a false belief.

 

[Danthemailman]

Since we have different beliefs about The verses in the discussion, no need to continue any other further back and forth's about this.

I see you, as most people defining faith as obedience.

But i will state this observation, i have read on here before you state that you are a mailman

Lets say i believe that, never having actually meet you in person, i am simply taking you at your word. that you are a mailman and believing your claim.

So lets say i go about my life now. Why would i have to do other actions to prove that i believe you are a mailman. Lets says a year later someone makes a comment that you are not a mailman and i read what they wrote and that causes me to stop believing you are a mail man (whether what they wrote is true or not).

So how did that negate my past belief, that you were a mailman, so much so. That you would say my original belief, that you were a mailman, was a false belief.

Actually, I don't define faith as obedience. I define faith as the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1) Faith is faith and multiple acts of obedience which "follow" and are produced "out of faith" are works. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.

 

[Mark Quayle]

False. Even though this shallow ground hearer is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved"? First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation. Unlike saving belief/faith, temporary, shallow belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief/faith? It can't.

Exactly! Well said.

As a Biblical definition of the faith through which we are saved, it cannot be of human origin. And being of Divine origin —to wit, being generated by the Spirit of God— it is altogether capable of producing lasting, continual, results, 'fruit', 'growth'.

 

[d taylor]

False. Even though this shallow ground hearer is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved"? First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation. Unlike saving belief/faith, temporary, shallow belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief/faith? It can't.

IN CONTRAST TO - Mark 4:8 - But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. Luke 8:15 says, But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. I understand the rocky soil to represent a person not properly prepared in heart so the seed planted ends up with a lack of "root" (lack of being firmly planted, or established) and good soil represents a person properly preapared in heart who having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keeps it and bears fruit with patience.

In regards to the seed that is sown among thorns, the person hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful, produces nothing, yields nothing. It was choked out before reaching it's desired goal.
IN CONTRAST TO - the seed that fell on good soil, the person hears the word and understands it, who INDEED BEARS FRUIT with patience (perseverance) and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.

All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) Those who produce no results at all are not truly converted. "Faith without works is dead" and only the 4th soil produced crops of any size. There is mention of a difference in the size of the crops, but no consequences or warnings are given to the lesser producers. Only the 4th soil was referred to as "good ground" and produced a crop (fruit) and there is no mention of choking or withering away thereafter.

Your characterization of the second soil is completely wrong. The second soil receives the word with joy, that clearly states a heart/head that is right for receiving Eternal Life. But fruit inspection theology, fails to see that this is a believer who received God's free gift of Eternal Life. And at that very moment they received the word with joy, became a born again child of God never to lose the Eternal Life salvation they received from God.

 

[RDKirk]

God's view is eternal. God stands outside of the time that He created and sees it all in one glance. He sees in His present (our future) who is with Him in eternity in His "now."

The person who falls to the wayside, the sprout that never develops to bear fruit (for whatever reason) was never with God in heaven in His view of His eternal "now." Never actually saved in His eternal "now."

 

[d taylor]

Actually, I don't define faith as obedience. I define faith as the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1) Faith is faith and multiple acts of obedience which "follow" and are produced "out of faith" are works. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.

Saying a person is not a believer, if they do not bear fruit, is a classic example of faith defined as obedience.
It is that you just do not add it before faith, you just add it to the back of faith.

So verses like John 3:16, by what you have written in these post. That a person is not a believer unless they bear fruit, would make John 3:16 read like this. that whoever believes in Him and bears fruit should not perish but have everlasting life.

But John 3:16 does not say that about having to bear fruit that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

 

[d taylor]

-​

People who believe it is more than faith (fruit bearing, repentance, baptism, confession, obedience, etc..) that is required to receive Eternal Life salvation.
Would not be able to approach a person on the street and be able to tell a person how to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life. And at the same time, be able to tell them how to have assurance, they have received God's free gift of Eternal Life. At the very moment they believed in The Messiah.

All they would be able to do is say, maybe your belief was real. You will have to have a life time of obedience and fruit bearing, to see if your belief was real and if you do not fall away. Then maybe your faith was real that is if you bore enough fruit or were obedient enough, miss church, tithes, etc.. and you may not make it.

 

[Danthemailman]

Exactly! Well said.

As a Biblical definition of the faith through which we are saved, it cannot be of human origin. And being of Divine origin —to wit, being generated by the Spirit of God— it is altogether capable of producing lasting, continual, results, 'fruit', 'growth'.

Amen! It's nice to see that someone gets it.

 

[Danthemailman]

Your characterization of the second soil is completely wrong. The second soil receives the word with joy, that clearly states a heart/head that is right for receiving Eternal Life.

People who hear and receive the word with joy (emotional response) and believe (in a shallow way) without a good and honest heart, and having "no root" do not experience real salvation. Once again, shallow, temporary belief that has no root, lacks moisture, produces no fruit and withers away is not saving belief. (Luke 8:6, 13) Faith without works is dead. (James 2:14-18)

But fruit inspection theology, fails to see that this is a believer who received God's free gift of Eternal Life. And at that very moment they received the word with joy, became a born again child of God never to lose the Eternal Life salvation they received from God.

All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) Those who receive the word and it takes root receive God's gift of eternal life and become a born again child of God to never lose eternal life. Shallow, temporary belief that does not take root and fails to produce fruit falls short of salvation. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root.

 

[Danthemailman]

Saying a person is not a believer, if they do not bear fruit, is a classic example of faith defined as obedience.
It is that you just do not add it before faith, you just add it to the back of faith.

So verses like John 3:16, by what you have written in these post. That a person is not a believer unless they bear fruit, would make John 3:16 read like this. that whoever believes in Him and bears fruit should not perish but have everlasting life.

But John 3:16 does not say that about having to bear fruit that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

For someone to say they are a believer, yet they never bear fruit, demonstrates they are not a genuine believer. Defining faith "as" obedience is saying that faith "is" in essence multiple acts of obedience/works, which I am absolutely not saying. I've heard people say that faith "is" multiple acts of obedience which is saying that faith "is" works and I absolutely do not teach that. Faith is faith and obedience/works which "follows" faith is obedience/works.

John 3:16 is correct. Those who believe in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. We are saved by believing in Him at it's origin and not at some time later, after we produce fruit. The eventual bearing of fruit is the demonstrative evidence that we have truly believed in Him unto salvation.

 

[d taylor]

For someone to say they are a believer, yet they never bear fruit, demonstrates they are not a genuine believer. Defining faith "as" obedience is saying that faith "is" in essence multiple acts of obedience/works, which I am absolutely not saying. I've heard people say that faith "is" multiple acts of obedience which is saying that faith "is" works and I absolutely do not teach that. Faith is faith and obedience/works which "follows" faith is obedience/works.

John 3:16 is correct. Those who believe in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. We are saved by believing in Him at it's origin and not at some time later, after we produce fruit. The eventual bearing of fruit is the demonstrative evidence that we have truly believed in Him unto salvation.

Well we will just have to disagree about the role of bearing fruit. As i do not agree that a person who believes and does not bear fruit is not a true believer.

 

[Danthemailman]

Well we will just have to disagree about the role of bearing fruit. As i do not agree that a person who believes and does not bear fruit is not a true believer.

So a person who believes and NEVER bears fruit at all is still considered a true believer? So faith without works is not dead after all?

 

[d taylor]

So a person who believes and NEVER bears fruit at all is still considered a true believer? So faith without works is not dead after all?

Receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life is a one time, one moment in time, act of faith, belief, trust in Jesus The Messiah. It is not a life long lived life of faith.

After that moment of faith in The Messiah the unbeliever becomes a born again child of God never to lose their born again life, they cross over from death to life never to cross back over to death There is no condition given by God besides faith to receive life.

 

[LW97Nils]

James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. James 1:1

 

[LW97Nils]

So a person who believes and NEVER bears fruit at all is still considered a true believer? So faith without works is not dead after all?

Good question.

 

[Danthemailman]

Receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life is a one time, one moment in time, act of faith, belief, trust in Jesus The Messiah. It is not a life long lived life of faith.

After that moment of faith in The Messiah the unbeliever becomes a born again child of God never to lose their born again life, they cross over from death to life never to cross back over to death There is no condition given by God besides faith to receive life.

Although it is true that we are saved by grace through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9) if you were put on trial for being a believer/Christian would there be any evidence at all to convict you? What kind of faith does not ever produce any works at all?

 

[RDKirk]

Well we will just have to disagree about the role of bearing fruit. As i do not agree that a person who believes and does not bear fruit is not a true believer.

We just have to be sure not to draw the boundaries of "bearing fruit" too narrowly.

A woman might have a secret drug addiction that, through Christ, she overcomes. That is fruit even if nobody else knows it.

 

[Lost Witness]

I fell away? from the faith for nearly 7yrs,
Quit Praying, Never repented and didn't acknowledge the LORD at all really.. (prayer is a WORK)
the LORD Brought me Back to Repent last year around August.. hallelujah!!!
My Experience was Without prayer you will Most Definitely Fall away,
Since Last Year I've been studying Scripture, (as I hadn't studed scripture at all after being Reborn, Within two weeks of it sadly. I fell away)
Been Praying as Feeling Led to which on some days is quite a lot and others isn't very much, Been Going to different Churches as the LORD leads and trying to get involved in Local ministries. (LORD willing shall I live, Will bare Much Fruit)


The LORD Bless You and Keep You



Shalom aleichem

 

[d taylor]

We just have to be sure not to draw the boundaries of "bearing fruit" too narrowly.

A woman might have a secret drug addiction that, through Christ, she overcomes. That is fruit even if nobody else knows it.

Does God not know a persons heart/mind and is God's free gift of Eternal Life received by faith with no other condition needed. If you are to say yes, then why does God need to see a woman overcome drug addiction.

Does God not know what she believed in her heart/mind, when she was presented how to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life.

Now if a person believes (and there are many) it takes more than faith,trust,belief in Jesus to receive God's free gift Eternal Life. Then i can see where they say it also takes besides faith fruit bearing, repentance, obedience, etc...

So not sure about you but i believe it only takes faith in the Messiah to receive God's free gift of eternal Life salvation. So not even an ounce of fruit bearing, repentance, obedience is needed.

 

[d taylor]

Although it is true that we are saved by grace through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9) if you were put on trial for being a believer/Christian would there be any evidence at all to convict you? What kind of faith does not ever produce any works at all?

Like i posted to RDKirk.

Does God not know a persons heart/mind and is God's free gift of Eternal Life received by faith with no other condition needed. If you are to say yes, then why does God need to see fruit bearing form a person?
Does God not know when a person trust in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation. Why would He (God) need to see physical works from a person, unless it is believed that these actions/works are part of receiving eternal life.

There are two types of Justifications, one before God, which is by faith (in The Messiah) only and the other justification is before man, which is only by works, because man can not see the heart/mind of a person.

They can only judge by outward appearances (works/actions fruit bearing, commitment, etc..) but there is a big difference between God and mans justification. God's justification is the only way to receive His free gift of Eternal Life.

Man justification is for fellowship and eventually receiving of rewards from God, if these works are done by The Holy Spirit, this justification has nothing to do with becoming a born again child of God.