Days Of Noah

Timtofly

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Where do you get your theology from? There is nothing in early Church history that speaks of more than one final judgement. The creeds and the Church Fathers did not advocate more than one final judgement. Please show me in scripture proof of more than one final judgement. It’s clear from the wording of Matthew 25:31-46 that Yeshua is speaking about the second coming and final judgement.
Separating the sheep and goats and harvesting the wheat and tares is not the final judgment. It is the harvest of God's elect and chosen to rule in the Millennium, the firstfruits. It has nothing to do with the final GWT. It has to do with the pre-millinium harvest of souls who recieve incorruptible bodies in Revelation 20:4.
 
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jeffweedaman

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Separating the sheep and goats and harvesting the wheat and tares is not the final judgment.

It has to be the final judgment.....
If it is not.., then this brings Gods idea of selecting and separating a sheep into question.
They wouldnt be sheep after all as some of them will have to rebel in order for further judgment to happen again in your future scenario.

The sheep inherit Eden and the goats inherit eternal separation when Jesus comes again a SECOND time.


Matt 25
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
 
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jeffweedaman

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There’s were only twelve tribes.

For Israel yes, but the text involves the tribes / nations of the whole earth.

Matt 24
And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

Jesus points out this fact in my previous post above in Matt 25.
 
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Hammster

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For Israel yes, but the text involves the tribes / nations of the whole earth.

Matt 24
And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

Jesus points out this fact in my previous post above in Matt 25.
Nations and tribes aren’t the same thing.
 
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jeffweedaman

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Nations and tribes aren’t the same thing.

Why not? A distinction is made in revelation when it is only referring to the 12 tribes of Israel...see 3.

  1. Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

  2. Revelation 5:9
    And they *sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the scroll and to break its seals; for You were slaughtered, and You purchased people for God with Your blood from every tribe, language, people, and nation.

  3. Revelation 7:4
    The 144,000
    And I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

  4. Revelation 7:9
    A Multitude from the Tribulation
    After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all the tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

  5. Revelation 13:7
    It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority was given to him over every tribe, people, language, and nation.

  6. Revelation 14:6
    Vision of the Angel with the Gospel
    And I saw another angel flying in midheaven with an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation, tribe, language, and people;
 
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Hammster

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Why not? A distinction is made in revelation when it is only referring to the 12 tribes of Israel...see 3.

  1. Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

  2. Revelation 5:9
    And they *sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the scroll and to break its seals; for You were slaughtered, and You purchased people for God with Your blood from every tribe, language, people, and nation.

  3. Revelation 7:4
    The 144,000
    And I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

  4. Revelation 7:9
    A Multitude from the Tribulation
    After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all the tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

  5. Revelation 13:7
    It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority was given to him over every tribe, people, language, and nation.

  6. Revelation 14:6
    Vision of the Angel with the Gospel
    And I saw another angel flying in midheaven with an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation, tribe, language, and people;
Your examples actually prove my point. There is a distinction between tribe and nation. That’s why they are listed separately.
 
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Love First

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Separating the sheep and goats and harvesting the wheat and tares is not the final judgment. It is the harvest of God's elect and chosen to rule in the Millennium, the firstfruits. It has nothing to do with the final GWT. It has to do with the pre-millinium harvest of souls who recieve incorruptible bodies in Revelation 20:4.

Nope. The historical Church has taught only one second coming and only one judgement throughout history. That occurs at the return of Christ on the last day. It is clear from the wording of Matthew 25:31-46 that the second coming and subsequent judgement is what is being discussed. Bye For Now.
 
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jeffweedaman

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Your examples actually prove my point. There is a distinction between tribe and nation. That’s why they are listed separately.

Lol. They highlight my point.
Tribes of the earth = nations , languages , People of the earth

And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.
 
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Hammster

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Lol. They highlight my point.
Tribes of the earth = nations , languages , People of the earth

And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.
Let’s look.

and You purchased people for God with Your blood from every tribe, language, people, and nation.

Theres a distinction between the two.
 
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DavidPT

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Why not? A distinction is made in revelation when it is only referring to the 12 tribes of Israel...see 3.

  1. Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

  2. Revelation 5:9
    And they *sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the scroll and to break its seals; for You were slaughtered, and You purchased people for God with Your blood from every tribe, language, people, and nation.

  3. Revelation 7:4
    The 144,000
    And I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

  4. Revelation 7:9
    A Multitude from the Tribulation
    After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all the tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

  5. Revelation 13:7
    It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority was given to him over every tribe, people, language, and nation.

  6. Revelation 14:6
    Vision of the Angel with the Gospel
    And I saw another angel flying in midheaven with an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation, tribe, language, and people;


How many tribes does the Bible indicate there are? How many nations in the earth are there? Are these the same amount?


The answer to the former is 12. Is that the answer to the latter as well? If no, tribes and nations can't be the same thing, yet tribes can live within all of these nations, though.

It might be like Indian tribes in the USA, as an example. There are several of them and those tribes reside in one nation, the USA in this case. How then can tribes and nations mean the same thing? Which would mean in this example, Indian tribes equal the nation of the USA, rather than Indian tribes reside in the nation of the USA. In the USA even some of the 12 tribes of Israel can be taking up residence here as well.

And since the USA is only one nation, and that the tribes of Israel consists of more than one, as does tribes of Indians, this alone proves tribes and nations are not the same thing.
 
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DavidPT

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Let’s look.

and You purchased people for God with Your blood from every tribe, language, people, and nation.

Theres a distinction between the two.


Even though I agree with you here, this doesn't mean I agree with your interpretation of some of the Discourse, though.
 
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parousia70

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Thank you for your thoughtful response. In my estimation, however, you used some of the weaker texts you could have used to demonstrate the time statements.

Let's take a couple specific verses out of the 100+ and address them.
Matthew 21:40-45
Fulfilled? or are we still waiting for that?

Hebrews 10:37
Literal or figurative?

James 5:8
Literal or figurative?


If you don't believe that the resurrection is a literal event in which we rise from the earth, then you don't believe in a resurrection at all. Jesus leaves no room for a metaphorical interpretation.

Help me understand how you arrive at this supposition.

Define Literal, and explain how you believe Literal is inextricably tied to fleshly in the context the resurrection.

I believe in the literal resurrection Paul described:

1 Corinthians 15:35-36,38,44
35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” 36 You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain...38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. .44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

The Bible uses the term "resurrection" literally of national restorations (Isa 26:13-14,19-20/ Ez 37), personal salvation/baptism (Col 2:12, Rom 6:4), the transfer of departed souls in the O.T. Hades/Sheol into God's heaven (1 Thess 4:13-16), and by implication, the final state of all things (Rev 22:13-14).
Parsing them all out is what can get tricky.

I maintain that the destruction of the Old Covenant nation is the primary sense of the apostles' eschatological teachings.

For example, I would characterize Luke 2:34-35 as speaking of Israel's first-century destruction and re-constitution via the Nazarene sect of King Jesus under the foretold NEW covenant.

Then, I am of the view that 1 Thess 4:13-17 is a discussion of when the O.T. dead would escape Hades/Sheol and be united to Christ in the heavenlies. In short, Paul says that their release from Hades was about to happen, as the impending historic change of the covenants (Heb 8:13/2 Cor 3:6-11) was to be marked by the Temple's profanation/desecration (2 Thess 2:3-4/Matt 23:33-24:2) and God's wrath on their disobedient Jewish countrymen (1 Thess 2:15-16/Mt 23:33-38/Acts 3:22-24).

It is even possible to understand resurrection in light of the AD 30-AD 70 period, as the word itself means "to stand" and receives multiple uses and meanings in scripture. (Like the examples I said before: the OT "national resurrections" of Israel; the "being raised" with Christ in baptism; the removal of the departed OT souls from Hades to Heaven; the final state).

Many of today's Christians have erred by not recognizing the link between the time statements and the end of the Old Covenant age, when God came in judgment upon Christ's enemies (Pharisees, Zealots, Sadducees, etc) at AD 70 (Matt 21:40-45). Yes, even though we hold firm to a *final* judgment of God in the future, the imminent one that was "near" and "soon" and "at hand" to first-century Jews was the AD 70 end of their nation and covenant and priesthood and tribes and 1500-year dynasty under Moses. The old nation instituted by Moses gave way to the new and greater covenanted nation which was made worldwide in Christ Jesus.

Just about everyone who studies NT theology knows that a major change took place for the dead back in the first century. In OT times, the dead did *not* ascend into Heaven but rather were prevented from doing so by the absence of a covenant that cleansed them fully. Moreover, nearly all christian groups admit that a change has occurred for the dead between the OT times and the NT times. What is entirely unclear however is precisely when that change took place. I am making the case that the bible teaches it took place when the Temple was destroyed during their "visitation" (Luke 19:40-44), in the days of vengeance (Luke 21:20-22).

The destruction of the Temple was hugely significant in that it was the historic signifier that the Old Covenant had vanished and the New had replaced it. Moreover, the destruction of the Temple was a key teaching of Christ, and one St. Paul picks up on at 2 Thess 2:3-4. And so I believe the most obvious and biblical understanding of 1 Thess 4 is that the dead in Hades were to be united to Christ when the Temple was profaned and desecrated. The "change" was huge, for it was the precise "change" that we think of when we distinguish the Old Covenant from the New Covenant.

What was to happen to the O.T-era dead was a central issue in the switch from the Old Covenant age to the New Covenant age. And in fact, nearly all christian groups admit that a major change took place for the dead during that time. Yet there is no agreement about what event marked their release from Hades. I believe the scripture is clear that the destruction of the Temple marked their release from Hades, as St. Paul teaches.

I think Paul addresses it by saying the dead ones go first and living ones later. For sure, I believe we can all agree that faithful Christians are now raised to heaven at death, and that this phenomenon began no later than AD 70. I believe St. Paul marks the change as having taken place with the destruction of the Old Covenant constitution and commonwealth.
 
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Hammster

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Even though I agree with you here, this doesn't mean I agree with your interpretation of some of the Discourse, though.
That’s fine. I just wanted to make it clear that the tribes are the 12 tribes of Israel.
 
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parousia70

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And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.
That’s fine. I just wanted to make it clear that the tribes are the 12 tribes of Israel.

Hammster is correct. Matt 24:29-31 is better translated as "tribes of the Land" is a direct reference to the Tribes of Israel listed in Zechariah 12:10-14

10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. 11 In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 13 the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; 14 all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves.
 
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jeffweedaman

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How many tribes does the Bible indicate there are? How many nations in the earth are there? Are these the same amount?


How many tribes of the earth are there should be the question.
I would say a lot more than 12.

A distinction is made in revelation when it is only referring to the 12 tribes of Israel...see 3....and note 1 refers to every eye will see him, even those who pierced him refers to more than just Israel.

  1. Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

  2. Revelation 5:9
    And they *sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the scroll and to break its seals; for You were slaughtered, and You purchased people for God with Your blood from every tribe, language, people, and nation.

  3. Revelation 7:4
    The 144,000
    And I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
 
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parousia70

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How many tribes of the earth are there should be the question.
I would say a lot more than 12.
Again, The reference to "all the tribes of the land shall mourn" is the Jewish tribes and is an allusion to Zechariah 12:10-14, a local judgment upon Jerusalem.
The tribes [greek = phule] of the land [greek = ge] = the jewish tribes of the land of Israel.
(Luke 4:25, Luke 21:23, Romans 9:27-28. James 5:17)
Nowhere in scripture is the phase Tribes (phule) of the Land (ge) used to refer to any peoples outside of the tribes if Israel.

Nowhere.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Was this Past fulfilled Judgment coming of God at the Battlefield victory of David over Saul, and accompanying destruction, clearly Global or clearly Local?

God Comes to End Saul's Kingdom - 1000 BC
Then the earth shook and quaked, the foundations of heaven were trembling and were shaken, because He was angry. Smoke went up out of His nostrils, fire from His mouth devoured; coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down with thick darkness under His feet. And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind. And He made darkness canopies around Him, a mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky. From the brightness before Him coals of fire were kindled. The LORD thundered from heaven, and the Most High uttered His voice. And He sent out arrows, and scattered them, Lightning, and routed them. Then the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were laid bare by the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of His nostrils. (2 Sam 22:8-16)

Clearly Global or Clearly Local?
Clearly local. Whereas what Peter describes in 2 Peter 3:3-13 is clearly literal because he compares the future destruction by fire at the second coming directly to the literal destruction caused long ago by the floodwaters in Noah's day (see 2 Peter 3:3-7). I see no basis for thinking that Jesus was not making that same comparison in Matthew 24:37-39 because He pointed out how the flood "destroyed them all" and then said "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.".
 
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jeffweedaman

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Why? What scriptural reasons do you have for this?

I explained why in post 155.
Did every eye see him in AD 70?

Every eye = every tribe, nation, language and people of the whole earth.

When he comes he gathers ALL the nations.

Matt 25
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
 
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DavidPT

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How many tribes of the earth are there should be the question.
I would say a lot more than 12.

A distinction is made in revelation when it is only referring to the 12 tribes of Israel...see 3....and note 1 refers to every eye will see him, even those who pierced him refers to more than just Israel.

  1. Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

  2. Revelation 5:9
    And they *sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the scroll and to break its seals; for You were slaughtered, and You purchased people for God with Your blood from every tribe, language, people, and nation.

  3. Revelation 7:4
    The 144,000
    And I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:


So why does the end of the book still only list 12 tribes?

Revelation 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:


Also, why is it, in the OT when tribes are mentioned, it generally always seems to involve the tribes of Israel?
 
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