Day of Atonement: to keep or not to...

masmpg

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I believe the jist of this whole thread is that the ceremonial/sacrificial laws pointed to Jesus death on the cross. To celebrate/observe the things that ended at the cross would be to deny Christ's sacrifice for our sins. Thus we would be placing ourselves under the old covenant.
 
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overcomer

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In Galatians, Paul wrote to gentiles. No need to list the case for Jewish believers.

Jerusalem was a different story. According to James, "myriads" of Jews had come to faith in the Lord. They wanted Paul's head for telling believing Jews to forsake Moses. James references the Acts 15 decree and reiterates that it applied only to Gentiles.

BTW: it is in Galatians that Paul says he was entrusted and approved by the 12 with the "gospel to the uncircumcised;" while Peter, James, et al, were given the "gospel to the circumcised." While it is one gospel in doctrine, they are different in application.

It's good you brought up the story James 'buttered' up Paul for him to perform Nazarene rite. Lets look at what happened in this story:
1. God did not want Paul to go to Jerusalem. He warned Paul with his spirit and sent a prophet to tell Paul not to go.
2. Paul for his zest to save the Jews disobeyed God. God intervened before Paul would have undone all his work by allowing him to be arrested.
 
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Dave-W

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It's good you brought up the story James 'buttered' up Paul for him to perform Nazarene rite. Lets look at what happened in this story:
1. God did not want Paul to go to Jerusalem. He warned Paul with his spirit and sent a prophet to tell Paul not to go.
2. Paul for his zest to save the Jews disobeyed God. God intervened before Paul would have undone all his work by allowing him to be arrested.
Wrong on all 3 points. And IMO you owe both James and Paul an apology for misrepresenting them.

There was no "buttering up" needed as Paul was going into the temple to discharge a Nazirite vow himself.

Acts 18:18b In Cenchrea he had his hair cut, for he was keeping a vow.

If you read the requirements for the Nazirite vow, one's hair was not to be cut before going to the Temple, unless one came into contact with a dead body. Then the hair was to be cut immediately and the sacrifices done at the Temple at one's earliest opportunity. James understood that Paul was discharging that vow when he said this:

Acts 21.24a take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads;

Next, (your #1) There is nothing to say that God did not want Paul to go to Jerusalem. It was his friends and colleagues that wanted him to stay away. Yes, God showed Paul and the other prophets what was going to happen; but that was ALL according to God's will. Remember the first prophecy concerning Paul?

Acts 9:16 "for I will show him how much he must suffer for My name’s sake.”

And then in Acts 23, an angel appears to him and tells him God wanted him to testify in Rome.

11 But on the night immediately following, the Lord stood at his side and said, "Take courage; for as you have solemnly witnessed to My cause at Jerusalem, so you must witness at Rome also."

Lastly, (your #2) God did not need to "clean up" anything. If Paul was disobedient, he would have said so in his letters that he wrote from prison. At the point he was arrested, the animal sacrifices for himself and the other 4 believers were already done.

Paul, as a Jew, understood that he still had to obey Moses.
Indeed, when he got to Rome he testified to the rabbis there that not only had he not disobeyed the Law, neither had he violated the Oral tradition, called the "customs of the fathers."

Acts 28.17 After three days Paul called together those who were the leading men of the Jews, and when they came together, he began saying to them, “Brethren, though I had done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.

So unless you are ready to call Paul a serial liar, or a wimp, you cannot say that either James or Paul messed this one up. They both got it exactly right.

I would submit that it is an errant doctrine that tries to paint this whole narrative in the negative.
 
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Dave-W

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James 'buttered' up Paul for him to perform Nazarene rite.
"Nazirite," NOT "Nazarene." Significant difference.

And to say that James "buttered up" someone to get them to disobey God is a serious charge. James was the Lord's brother (half brother), the congregational leader of the Jerusalem congregation and writer of one epistle.

Do you really think he was that much of a deceiver? Why did God allow his letter to be included in the bible if that were the case?
 
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overcomer

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Wrong on all 3 points. And IMO you owe both James and Paul an apology for misrepresenting them.

There was no "buttering up" needed as Paul was going into the temple to discharge a Nazirite vow himself.

Acts 18:18b In Cenchrea he had his hair cut, for he was keeping a vow.

If you read the requirements for the Nazirite vow, one's hair was not to be cut before going to the Temple, unless one came into contact with a dead body. Then the hair was to be cut immediately and the sacrifices done at the Temple at one's earliest opportunity. James understood that Paul was discharging that vow when he said this:

Acts 21.24a take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads;

Next, (your #1) There is nothing to say that God did not want Paul to go to Jerusalem. It was his friends and colleagues that wanted him to stay away. Yes, God showed Paul and the other prophets what was going to happen; but that was ALL according to God's will. Remember the first prophecy concerning Paul?

Acts 9:16 "for I will show him how much he must suffer for My name’s sake.”

And then in Acts 23, an angel appears to him and tells him God wanted him to testify in Rome.

11 But on the night immediately following, the Lord stood at his side and said, "Take courage; for as you have solemnly witnessed to My cause at Jerusalem, so you must witness at Rome also."

Lastly, (your #2) God did not need to "clean up" anything. If Paul was disobedient, he would have said so in his letters that he wrote from prison. At the point he was arrested, the animal sacrifices for himself and the other 4 believers were already done.

Paul, as a Jew, understood that he still had to obey Moses.
Indeed, when he got to Rome he testified to the rabbis there that not only had he not disobeyed the Law, neither had he violated the Oral tradition, called the "customs of the fathers."

Acts 28.17 After three days Paul called together those who were the leading men of the Jews, and when they came together, he began saying to them, “Brethren, though I had done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.

So unless you are ready to call Paul a serial liar, or a wimp, you cannot say that either James or Paul messed this one up. They both got it exactly right.

I would submit that it is an errant doctrine that tries to paint this whole narrative in the negative.
The spirit warned Paul not to go to Jerusalem:

Acts 20
16 For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.....
22 And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:
23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.

Acts 21
4 And finding disciples, we tarried there seven days: who said to Paul through the Spirit, that he should not go up to Jerusalem.
10 And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus.
11 And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.
12 And when we heard these things, both we, and they of that place, besought him not to go up to Jerusalem.
13 Then Paul answered, What mean ye to weep and to break mine heart? for I am ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.

The reason God didn't want Paul to go to Jerusalem was because Paul would be compelled to perform the priestly work to fulfill the Nazirite rite for 4 men which ends with sacrifices (Numbers 6:13-21).

This is what I call setting him up, to contradict his own teaching by making sacrifices :

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

God had to intervene by allowing the Jews to arrest Paul before he could perform the sacrifices which would conclude the ceremony.

26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
27 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him,
 
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overcomer

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"Nazirite," NOT "Nazarene." Significant difference.
Autocorrected it. Ok. Stay on topic.
And to say that James "buttered up" someone to get them to disobey God is a serious charge. James was the Lord's brother (half brother), the congregational leader of the Jerusalem congregation and writer of one epistle.

Do you really think he was that much of a deceiver? Why did God allow his letter to be included in the bible if that were the case?
Lets see...
Moses stuck the rock twice and claimed to have something to do with giving Israelites water.
David committed adultery, murder.
Solomon married all those wives, concubines.
Isaiah had unclean lips.
Peter separated himself from the gentiles to sit with the Jews for the fear of them
Paul had a big fight with Barnabas over Mark
Yeah, the bible was written by fallible men who committed sins and did their own things contrary to the will of God.
 
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Dave-W

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The spirit warned Paul not to go to Jerusalem:
No - the Spirit was telling him what would happen in Jerusalem. Chains. Imprisonment. etc. Your assumption is that God did not want him to be arrested. I maintain He did.
The reason God didn't want Paul to go to Jerusalem was because Paul would be compelled to perform the priestly work to fulfill the Nazirite rite for 4 men which ends with sacrifices (Numbers 6:13-21).

This is what I call setting him up, to contradict his own teaching by making sacrifices :
It is your assumption that doing that contradicted Paul's teachings. I submit that it did NOT.

Indeed, the exchange between James and Paul in Acts 21 is over Paul being falsely accused of teaching against Moses and the sacrifices. James gave him a deed to do to prove that the charges were false. Paul had the best opportunity of his life to say that Jews did not have to follow Moses right then and there. So either he did what James said to PROVE his believing that continued observance of Moses was right FOR JEWS, or he wimped out big time. And knowing that he was heading into chains, beatings, etc, I seriously doubt that he would wimp out on that point.

God had to intervene by allowing the Jews to arrest Paul before he could perform the sacrifices which would conclude the ceremony.
It was not finished for the other 4 men (although Paul had already paid for their sacrifices) his own sacrifice would have been done IMMEDIATELY since he had already cut his hair in Cenchrea - Acts 18.

If that was God's intervention, it was too late.
 
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Dave-W

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Look - I realize that if you fail to see that distinction between Gentile converts and Jews coming to faith, what I am saying will make absolutely no sense whatsoever. Why the different rules?

The answer is simple: the Abrahamic covenant (which was NOT done away with) is still in effect with the offspring of Jacob. Not so with the gentiles.
 
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overcomer

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Look - I realize that if you fail to see that distinction between Gentile converts and Jews coming to faith, what I am saying will make absolutely no sense whatsoever. Why the different rules?

The answer is simple: the Abrahamic covenant (which was NOT done away with) is still in effect with the offspring of Jacob. Not so with the gentiles.

What you said concerning the Abrahamic covenant is not in harmony with the scriptures (written by Paul).

Galatians 3:
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

God is no respect of persons. Salvation is not by genetics.
 
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Gerhard Ebersoehn

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Is there anything biblical preventing Christians from keeping the Day of Atonement (aka:Yom Kippur). It starts at sunset on the 11th and goes through til sunset of the 12th. It's in Lev. 16:29-34 btw. I have strange reasons and a sincere desire to know. Thanks. Peace be with you.

Colossians 2:16-19

12 While dead in your sins God who raised Christ from the dead forgave you all trespasses having quickened you together with Him. Nailing it to the cross and removing it altogether, Christ blotted out the damning law against us; and putting off and ruining the rulers and the authorities [of darkness 1:13], He publicly held them up to shame, triumphing over them in it. [If ye then be raised with Christ 3:1], THEN THEREFORE, don’t you let yourselves be judged and condemned by anyone (of the world 2:8, 20) in your eating and drinking or with regard to your eating and drinking of feast, whether of month’s or of Sabbaths’—all which shadows forth what soon must be, the BODY and SUBSTANCE OF CHRIST!

Let no man not holding to the Head [but] puffed up by his fleshly mind, who conceitedly meddles in what he knows nothing about (the mystery which is Christ 1:28), with his pretentious humility and angelic worship beguile you (with enticing words 2:4) of your reward.

Because holding to the Head nourishment being ministered, all the Body (of Christ’s Own 1:18) by joints and bands [of faith 2:12 Hosea 11:4; peace Ephesians 4:3; and charity Colossians 3:14], and knit together (in love 2:2), will grow with the growth of God.

"Don't you let yourselves be judged by anyone in regard to your eating and drinking of Christ the Substance of Sabbaths' Feast either Lord's Supper of month's or Sabbaths' Feast, which are but the shadow of what imminently must come for you holding to the Head, the Body growing with the growth of God Christ being the Nourishment ministered."



Since having resurrected from the dead "on the Sabbath in fullness of day", "Jesus having entered into his Own Rest as God in his own, He gave them Rest, so that THEREFORE A KEEPING OF SABBATH REST DAY FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD REMAINS."
 
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Gerhard Ebersoehn

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Is there anything biblical preventing Christians from keeping the Day of Atonement (aka:Yom Kippur). It starts at sunset on the 11th and goes through til sunset of the 12th. It's in Lev. 16:29-34 btw. I have strange reasons and a sincere desire to know. Thanks. Peace be with you.

Yes, there is! Jesus Christ, who, FOR OUR ATONEMENT AND RECONCILIATION WITH GOD, suffered, was crucified, died, and was buried, and who, "according to all the Scriptures", ROSE from the dead again!
 
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Gerhard Ebersoehn

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There is a difference between "keeping" and "observing." I and my family (and most Messianics) will be "observing" it with fasting, praying and intercession. It is a "moed," or appointed time. (a fast cannot be a "feast" as most english versions render that word) As a moed, God has said it is an appointment to meet with us.

As I said in the other thread, the central event of Yom Kippur has been done by Messiah with His own Blood.

This is contradiction in aversions --- in vain and self-destructive aversions.
 
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overcomer

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No - the Spirit was telling him what would happen in Jerusalem. Chains. Imprisonment. etc. Your assumption is that God did not want him to be arrested. I maintain He did.
If you warn someone the consequence of his/her action, that means you want them to carry out that action??? Is that the way any parent would teach their children?
It is your assumption that doing that contradicted Paul's teachings. I submit that it did NOT.
Had Paul officiated the sacrifices, he would have undone all his teaching. Here is one of his teaching on this subject.

Galatians 3
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Indeed, the exchange between James and Paul in Acts 21 is over Paul being falsely accused of teaching against Moses and the sacrifices. James gave him a deed to do to prove that the charges were false. Paul had the best opportunity of his life to say that Jews did not have to follow Moses right then and there. So either he did what James said to PROVE his believing that continued observance of Moses was right FOR JEWS, or he wimped out big time. And knowing that he was heading into chains, beatings, etc, I seriously doubt that he would wimp out on that point.
He gave in because he was willing to do anything (even to his own death) to save the Jews while God had another job for him to do. God wanted him to reach to the Greeks.

It was not finished for the other 4 men (although Paul had already paid for their sacrifices) his own sacrifice would have been done IMMEDIATELY since he had already cut his hair in Cenchrea - Acts 18.

If that was God's intervention, it was too late.

The scripture is silent here. It does not prove Paul had made a sacrifice at the end of his vow in Cenchrea which is by Corinth, far from Jerusalem. The point here is before Paul could make any sacrifice on the record, he was arrested.
 
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Dave-W

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What you said concerning the Abrahamic covenant is not in harmony with the scriptures (written by Paul).

Galatians 3:
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

God is no respect of persons. Salvation is not by genetics.
OR - it is not in harmony with YOUR UNDERSTANDING of the scriptures.

Tell me, if there is no more "Jew or Greek," why is there still a "Male and Female?" Or is gay marriage ok now? (if that distinction is gone it should be)

Same words.
Same sentence.
Same context.

You cannot have it both ways. Either all those distinctions stand or they all fall.

I would submit that you are taking the meaning too far.
 
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Dave-W

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If you warn someone the consequence of his/her action, that means you want them to carry out that action??? Is that the way any parent would teach their children?
Did you not read God's words to Ananias of Damascas when Paul was still blind? "I will show him how much he must SUFFER for my name sake."

Yes - suffering was God's will for him. Just as it was for our Lord.
 
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Dave-W

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The scripture is silent here. It does not prove Paul had made a sacrifice at the end of his vow in Cenchrea which is by Corinth, far from Jerusalem. The point here is before Paul could make any sacrifice on the record, he was arrested.
C'mon. Get a hold of how the process worked. It was "almost" seven days. But his own sacrifice would have been on the first day.

History, my friend. Read it.
 
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overcomer

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OR - it is not in harmony with YOUR UNDERSTANDING of the scriptures.

Tell me, if there is no more "Jew or Greek," why is there still a "Male and Female?" Or is gay marriage ok now? (if that distinction is gone it should be)

Same words.
Same sentence.
Same context.

You cannot have it both ways. Either all those distinctions stand or they all fall.

I would submit that you are taking the meaning too far.

Physical differences still exist. But for salvation, none of that matters. You have the Son, you have life. The way it is since the beginning.
 
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Dave-W

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Had Paul officiated the sacrifices, he would have undone all his teaching. Here is one of his teaching on this subject.
He could not "officiate" any sacrifice as he was NOT a Levite. (he was from Benjamin)

The only thing that he would have "undone" is your understanding (or misunderstanding) of what he taught. Not what he ACTUALLY taught.

Your Galatians 3 passage is dealing with GENTILES and in Acts 21 we are dealing with believing JEWS.
 
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Dave-W

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Physical differences still exist. But for salvation, none of that matters.
OK. Good. Maybe you are starting to see it.

That passage deals with SALVATION. (not practice)
 
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This is contradiction in aversions --- in vain and self-destructive aversions.
Howdy Gerhard! Long time no see.

And it is still difficult to understand what you are saying.
 
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