David

[Blackhawk]

Eldermike has stated that we should maybe do a Character study and see through a biblical model if freewill is the reason we are chosen or is perdestination the way in which it occurs.  I think that is a good idea and I have decided to pick David. 

The Bible is very clear that God pick David and not the other way around. 


1 Sam 16:10-13
10 Thus Jesse made seven of his sons pass before Samuel. But Samuel said to Jesse, "The LORD has not chosen these."
11 And Samuel said to Jesse, "Are these all the children?" And he said, "There remains yet the youngest, and behold, he is tending the sheep." Then Samuel said to Jesse, "Send and bring him; for we will not sit down until he comes here."
12 So he sent and brought him in. Now he was ruddy, with beautiful eyes and a handsome appearance. And the LORD said, "Arise, anoint him; for this is he."
13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers; and the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon David from that day forward. And Samuel arose and went to
(NAU)

David was not looking to become a king.  God chose Him to be king and to bring Isreal in its greatest golden age. 

What do y'all think?  Was it something that David had that was the reason why God chose him?  Or was it because God chose Him not because of who David was but because it was what God sovereignly willed? 

 

[Blessed-one]

doesn't God choose the lowly thing to shame the wise?
i think there is something to do with who David was at that point in time, as well as how God predestined him to be the one at that time.

 

[eldermike]

I do not want to be understood as "attacking" any Christian teaching or denomination. I believe that we can, each one of us, discover the nature of God; how He works and operates to bring about His purposes.
IMHO, if you study people in scripture you will grow in understanding.
IMHO, this method will set you free.

I also do not believe that any denomination has this all right, or all wrong. And, I do not believe that folks that disagree with this are unsaved or lost. And, perhaps some need the other teachings and some do not. Only God knows.

Think of all the sermons you have heard on the character, nature and heart of David.

Did you come away from those sermons feeling that you had to change YOUR character and nature, change YOUR heart?

The nature of God is revealed in His work with people, (the ones with names) in Scripture.

Who changes hearts? Who makes us new?
This is at the heart of all legalistic teachings, IMHO.

Many teach using the word CHANGE! or TURN!. You can put those in a bunch of sentences. You can use all the "Those", "brothers", "They" and then tell us to: "TURN" or "CHANGE".

Brothers, all we can do is Submit, Humble ourselves, Pray. The rest is Gods work alone, lest we boast.

When we Change, we fail. God never fails.

Blessings, and with Christian love,

 

[LouisBooth]

I would have to say in terms of salvation, we are picked and man's ONLY choice is to allow it to happen, or not allow it to happen. The closest thing I can get to a good anaology is a drowning man getting pulled out of the water. He didn't save himself but he allows it to happen. The word used most often instead of allowance is submitance.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Blackhawk
What do y'all think?  Was it something that David had that was the reason why God chose him?  Or was it because God chose Him not because of who David was but because it was what God sovereignly willed? 

I would like to point out something very poignant about the passages regarding the annointing of David.

Notice in verse 1 the Lord says, "I am sending you to Jesse the Bethlehemite. For I have provided Myself a king among his sons."

I think it's very revealing that God clarifies for whom David was to be annointed as king of the people.  It was for Himself.

Then, look at verse three:

"Then invite Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will show you what you shall do; you shall anoint for Me the one I name to you."

Again God points out that David is to be a representative of God's sovereignty.  Even his selection as king was ordained, orchestrated, and manifested by the power of God.

God bless

 

[Ben johnson]

"Who is this Philistine that he should defy the armies of the living God? ...The Lord who delivered me from the paw of the lion and from the bear will deliver me from the hand of this Philistine." 1Sam17

Do you really contend that David began faithless? Do you not think that David was chosen THROUGH his faith?

You make it sound like God just grabbed David and compelled him to do His bidding---I see a very different story.

Tell me something----when David sinned with Bathsheba, and Nathan came to confront him---did David have a choice in his response? Had David not repented, would he have lived? 2Sam12

Is there not volition in every part of David's life?

 

[Ben johnson]

we are picked and man's ONLY choice is to allow it to happen, or not allow it to happen. The closest thing I can get to a good anaology is a drowning man getting pulled out of the water. He didn't save himself but he allows it to happen. The word used most often instead of allowance is submitance.

Oooooo---Louis & I agree!

Perfectly!

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
Do you really contend that David began faithless? Do you not think that David was chosen THROUGH his faith?

David was chosen, AS I POINTED OUT, long before He became King.  The passages you reference show David's faith, most definitely.  However, David was saved by God before He made that speech and confronted Goliath. 

You make it sound like God just grabbed David and compelled him to do His bidding---I see a very different story.

Geesh man!  Get over the robot thing.  What compels a person who has been redeemed?  Is it their love for God? 

Tell me something----when David sinned with Bathsheba, and Nathan came to confront him---did David have a choice in his response? Had David not repented, would he have lived? 2Sam12

Who has ever said that a regenerate person does not have the ability to be disobedient?  I'd like to know why you act as if God didn't know that David would repent, as if He was sitting there waiting on David to make His choice.

Is there not volition in every part of David's life?

Absolutely.  And, proponants of reformed theology don't believe differently.  The difference in our theology and yours is that we acknowledge that it is God who enables His chosen, by His grace, to make righteous decisions, like repent.  Reformed thinkers acknowledge that it is the fact that they have been saved which gives them the ability to credit God with their salvation and all other things in their life.  An unsaved person cannot repent.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
The closest thing I can get to a good anaology is a drowning man getting pulled out of the water. He didn't save himself but he allows it to happen.

This is a good analogy...if you diregard the fallen nature of mankind.  Man's nature after the Fall does not desire to be rescued.  He is God's enemy and God is His.  A more accurate analogy would be a drowning, unconscious, man getting pulled out of the water.  Whether he dives back into the water is an issue of obedience, not whether he was saved.  It's not even an issue of whether he could "take back" being saved the first time, which he could not.

The word used most often instead of allowance is submitance.

Don't you see though, Louis?  The act of submitting to God is a righteous action.  Fallen man could do nothing righteous.

Romans 3:10-12
As it is written:


        "There is none righteous, no, not one; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>There is none who understands;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; There is none who seeks after God.&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>They have all turned aside;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; They have together become unprofitable;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; There is none who does good, no, not one."

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all like an unclean thing,
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; We all fade as a leaf,
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; And our iniquities, like the wind,
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Have taken us away.

God bless

 

[Ben johnson]

Fallen man could do nothing righteous.

And yet, "with the heart (fallen) man believes, resulting in righteousness; and with the mouth he confesses resulting in salvation." Rm10:10

We are dead-in-our-sins, fallen, unrighteous, right up until the moment we believe---it is THAT BELIEF that results in righteousness. And it is CONFESSING WITH OUR MOUTHS what we have believed in our hearts that results in salvation. You can argue with me all you wish, I don't mind---but can you argue with Paul?

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
You can argue with me all you wish, I don't mind

I appreciate your permission.&nbsp; I don't mean to argue with you, though often I do.&nbsp; It's the weakness of my flesh.

but can you argue with Paul?

LOL!&nbsp; Oh my!&nbsp; LOL!&nbsp;

Thanks Ben.&nbsp; Your response was just what I needed.&nbsp; As you are entitled to your opinion so am I.&nbsp; I believe Paul would be mortified to hear his beliefs being spoken of as if they are the same as what you believe.

God bless

&nbsp;

 

[eldermike]

GE 3:21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

Even if you reach, you cannot eat.

REV 22:14 "Blessed are those who wash their robes , that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Only by the blood of Christ can you eat.

Summary:
God could not dwell eternally with evil man, so He cuts off mans life.
Man tries every method under the sun to make himself holy. Result: falls short every time.
God then takes the sins of man to the cross (a Spirtual battle that we never understood/understand nor could we ever win in this body).
Those He has chosen and have responded (or will respond) by way of confessing that Jesus is Lord and Savior will be perfected (not by our works but by His).

We were designed to be eternal, Adams sin made that impossible, Jesus' death of a cross made it possible again. What part did you/I play in this? Nothing.

Blessings

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by eldermike
Man tries every method under the sun to make himself holy. Result: falls short every time.

I'm not disagreeing with you Mike I am just curious as to what methods you are saying carnal man&nbsp;attempts in an effort to make himself holy.

Thanks,

God bless

 

[eldermike]

By the law

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by eldermike
By the law

Do you mean by trying to keep the law?&nbsp; Or do you mean by elevating the traditions of man to the level of Scripture?&nbsp; Like how the old Baptist (I think)&nbsp;saying, "Don't dance, don't chew, don't go with girls that do" became such a huge thing for that denomination that there was actually church punishment against things that aren't even put off limits in God's Word but were put off limits by that denomination.&nbsp; Or was there some other meaning?

Thanks,

Don

 

[LouisBooth]

"The act of submitting to God is a righteous action. "

I'd say this is where we part ways. I think (personally) that christ calls all and our desire is to be saved, though there is nothing pleasing we can do to acheive it. I think this desire springs from our making, ie how God made us.

 

[LouisBooth]

I agree with Mike on this statement

"Man tries every method under the sun to make himself holy. Result: falls short every time."

We can see that through out human history. We can also see that God's law was ment to point us to christ. Observing the law doesn't make us holy, as David saw, but being holy and sinless and striving toward that is what God wants...

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
I'd say this is where we part ways. I think (personally) that christ calls all and our desire is to be saved, though there is nothing pleasing we can do to acheive it. I think this desire springs from our making, ie how God made us.

Man was made with a desire to please God.&nbsp; That part of us died with the Fall.&nbsp; Here is fallen man's nature:

Romans 3:10-18
As it is written:&nbsp;

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "There is none righteous, no, not one;&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>There is none who understands;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; There is NONE WHO SEEKS AFTER GOD.&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>They have all turned aside;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; They have together become unprofitable;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; There is none who does good, no, not one."&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>"Their throat is an open tomb;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; With their tongues they have practiced deceit";&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "The poison of asps is under their lips";&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>"Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness."&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>"Their feet are swift to shed blood;&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>Destruction and misery are in their ways;&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>And the way of peace they have not known."&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>"There is no fear of God before their eyes."

That seems to totally contradict what you're saying.&nbsp; Does this sound to you like fallen man has a desire to please God?

God bless

 

[Ben johnson]

Only by the blood of Christ can you eat.

Agreed...

Man tries every method under the sun to make himself holy. Result: falls short every time.

This is why it IS, and MUST BE, by grace---because we COULD NOT achieve it ourselves.

Yet, every religion without exception is based on "GOOD WORKS"---achieving righteousness, nirvana, oneness, whaddever, by one's own efforts...

I think (personally) that Christ calls all and our desire is to be saved, though there is nothing pleasing we can do to achieve it. I think this desire springs from our making, ie how God made us.

Agreed---mostly. I think there is strength to the verses that say, "...light came into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the light." Following Old Testament statements, those who turn to Him "He removes their hearts of stone and replaces them with hearts of flesh, that they may walk in His statutes and keep His ordinances. But as for those whose hearts go after detestable things and abominations God will bring down their behavior on their heads"... (Ezk 11:19-21)

Some believe from hearing the Gospel, but others love sin and darkness...

 

[eldermike]

Do you mean by trying to keep the law? Or do you mean by elevating the traditions of man to the level of Scripture? Like how the old Baptist (I think) saying, "Don't dance, don't chew, don't go with girls that do" became such a huge thing for that denomination that there was actually church punishment against things that aren't even put off limits in God's Word but were put off limits by that denomination. Or was there some other meaning?

You have it right on all points.
Jesus several times corrected the understanding and application of the law when He was speaking to the keepers of the law. He clearly showed that they didn't understand the intent of the law. In fact when they asked Him which is the greatest commandment, He gave them a new one.
This is something to consider, I think.