David The Calvinist

[Gamecock]

Ya'll miss me?

Psalm 23

A psalm of David.

1 The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not be in want. [Shepherds take care of sheep. Sheep have no free will. They must go where the shepherd guides them]

2 He makes me lie down in green pastures,
he leads me beside quiet waters,
[Making someone lie down in a green pasture? What about Free Will?]

3 he restores my soul.
[Nice short verse on total depravity. My soul is dead and desires not the things of God]

He guides me in paths of righteousness
for his name's sake.
[Here is the key: for His names sake. Not my will, but clearly for his own glory!]

The remainder refers to perseverance of the Saints


4 Even though I walk
through the valley of the shadow of death, [1]
I will fear no evil,
for you are with me;
your rod and your staff,
they comfort me.

5 You prepare a table before me
in the presence of my enemies.
You anoint my head with oil;
my cup overflows.
6 Surely goodness and love will follow me
all the days of my life,
and I will dwell in the house of the LORD
forever.

 

[Reformationist]

Thanks for sharing. Good work.

God bless

 

[christian-only]

Shepherds take care of sheep. Sheep have no free will. They must go where the shepherd guides them

If sheep have no free-will, how do they get lost?

Making someone lie down in a green pasture? What about Free Will?

Why can't people with free-will be made to do something? I have free-will, but my mom makes me clean my room!

3 he restores my soul.
[Nice short verse on total depravity. My soul is dead and desires not the things of God]

He did NOT say "I desire not the things of God," and it's dishonest to add those words here. "He restores my soul" means that when by my free-will I act like a really stupid sheep and get lost, he leaves the other 99 and comes and finds me and leads me back to the fold.

He guides me in paths of righteousness
for his name's sake.
[Here is the key: for His names sake. Not my will, but clearly for his own glory!]

You cannot guide something that has no will. Yes, he guides me for his own name's sake, but I could not be guided without a will.

4 Even though I walk
through the valley of the shadow of death, [1]
I will fear no evil,
for you are with me;
your rod and your staff,
they comfort me.

"I will fear no evil" is a declaration of a DECISION made by the will. Robots cannot be comforted. Comfort requires a will.

 

[Gamecock]

If sheep have no free-will, how do they get lost?

And he makes them come back. They don't have free will. They do what the shepard says.

Why can't people with free-will be made to do something? I have free-will, but my mom makes me clean my room!

Fine, don't clean it and watch her smack you upside the head with a sheppards crook.

You cannot guide something that has no will. Yes, he guides me for his own name's sake, but I could not be guided without a will.

He changes your will. I got news for you, your will is not as free as you think. Even the reprobate who will never know Christ is influanced by his expiriences and education. No one has a truely free will. To claim so is to stick your head in the sand.

"I will fear no evil" is a declaration of a DECISION made by the will. Robots cannot be comforted. Comfort requires a will.

No, after He changes you from a goat to a sheep, you realize from where your comfort originates.

 

[christian-only]

If I have no free-will, why debate the subject of free-will with me? Doesn't make any sense, does it? That's because we both have free-will, or at least I do.

(BTW, your statement "They don't have free will. They do what the shepard says" makes it sound like the shepherd walks up to his 100 sheep and commands one of them to become lost. Sounds like blasphemy to me.)

 

[Gamecock]

If I have no free-will, why debate the subject of free-will with me? Doesn't make any sense, does it? That's because we both have free-will, or at least I do.

(BTW, your statement "They don't have free will. They do what the shepard says" makes it sound like the shepherd walks up to his 100 sheep and commands one of them to become lost. Sounds like blasphemy to me.)

You missed the part about how all were goats, some became sheep. Who became sheep? The ones who God draws near: John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Now, are you calling Jesus a heretic?

 

[christian-only]

It was a sheep (not a goat) that got lost in the parable. Did Jesus tell him "hey, go get lost"? God forbid!

 

[Gamecock]

It was a sheep (not a goat) that got lost in the parable. Did Jesus tell him "hey, go get lost"? God forbid!

The goat was never even there. If it were it would have been a sheep.

 

[Wrigley]

Ya'll miss me?

Psalm 23

A psalm of David.

1 The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not be in want. [Shepherds take care of sheep. Sheep have no free will. They must go where the shepherd guides them]

2 He makes me lie down in green pastures,
he leads me beside quiet waters,
[Making someone lie down in a green pasture? What about Free Will?]

3 he restores my soul.
[Nice short verse on total depravity. My soul is dead and desires not the things of God]

He guides me in paths of righteousness
for his name's sake.
[Here is the key: for His names sake. Not my will, but clearly for his own glory!]

The remainder refers to perseverance of the Saints


4 Even though I walk
through the valley of the shadow of death, [1]
I will fear no evil,
for you are with me;
your rod and your staff,
they comfort me.

5 You prepare a table before me
in the presence of my enemies.
You anoint my head with oil;
my cup overflows.
6 Surely goodness and love will follow me
all the days of my life,
and I will dwell in the house of the LORD
forever.

Cool thoughts

 

[Bulldog]

Ya'll miss me?

Psalm 23

A psalm of David.

1 The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not be in want. [Shepherds take care of sheep. Sheep have no free will. They must go where the shepherd guides them]

2 He makes me lie down in green pastures,
he leads me beside quiet waters,
[Making someone lie down in a green pasture? What about Free Will?]

3 he restores my soul.
[Nice short verse on total depravity. My soul is dead and desires not the things of God]

He guides me in paths of righteousness
for his name's sake.
[Here is the key: for His names sake. Not my will, but clearly for his own glory!]

The remainder refers to perseverance of the Saints


4 Even though I walk
through the valley of the shadow of death, [1]
I will fear no evil,
for you are with me;
your rod and your staff,
they comfort me.

5 You prepare a table before me
in the presence of my enemies.
You anoint my head with oil;
my cup overflows.
6 Surely goodness and love will follow me
all the days of my life,
and I will dwell in the house of the LORD
forever.

Amen!

 

[Bulldog]

That's very neat. I never thought of those verses that way.

 

[kel32]

A Psalm of David...

"The LORD acknowledged my righteousness, rewarded my clean hands. For I kept the ways of the LORD; I was not disloyal to my God. His laws were all before me, his decrees I did not cast aside. I was honest toward him; I was on guard against sin. So the LORD rewarded my righteousness, the cleanness of my hands in his sight." Psalm 18:21-25

~Peace~

 

[Gamecock]

Cool thoughts

I didn't have time to do a long exegesis of the passage. But you got my drift.

I thought about it while driving down the road and just wanted to put it down between errands.

 

[TSIBHOD]

John 6:44 is true, but John 12:32 is also.

Both sides in the debate on Calvinism seem to ignore the other side's verses. The reality is:

Predestination and free will coexist.

 

[Gamecock]

John 6:44 is true, but John 12:32 is also.

Both sides in the debate on Calvinism seem to ignore the other side's verses. The reality is:

Predestination and free will coexist.

No they don't.

All refers to men of all nations. Not universal salvation, which is clearly not taught in scripture.

 

[TSIBHOD]

Does it say men of all nations, or does it just say "all (men)"? If you get to add words to my verses, I get to add words to yours....

 

[Gamecock]

Does it say men of all nations, or does it just say "all (men)"? If you get to add words to my verses, I get to add words to yours....

So you are saying all men are saved? Hitler? Stalin? Jim Jones? Judas?

 

[Gamecock]

Does it say men of all nations, or does it just say "all (men)"? If you get to add words to my verses, I get to add words to yours....

Suicide bombers, the terrorists who flew the planes into the WTC....

 

[Gamecock]

Does it say men of all nations, or does it just say "all (men)"? If you get to add words to my verses, I get to add words to yours....

Esau, Goliath, the 200 Philistines who David collected prepuces from

 

[TSIBHOD]

I say that all men are "drawn," not that all men are saved. To be drawn means to be brought, to be "dragged," to God.

Phi 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted Him, and has given Him a name which is above every name,
Phi 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of heavenly ones, and of earthly ones, and of ones under the earth;
Phi 2:11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Everyone will confess that Jesus is Lord eventually. If they confess it now, they have salvation. If not, they do not have salvation, but they will confess it one day anyway. In the same way, God draws all people. Some reach Him while still on Earth, and are saved. Some will reach Him at the judgment and will be judged, but not saved.

Jesus says that no man can come unless the Father draws. It does not say that the Father draws some and not others. All are drawn, according to John 12:32. If it weren't for that, no one could be saved. In other words, we are not able to save ourselves, and we would all be "totally depraved" if left without God. But God leaves none of us without Himself. He draws all men. If they resist His drawing, they keep themselves from salvation. See these verses as an example:

Act 28:24 And some indeed believed the things that were said, others did not believe.
Act 28:25 And disagreeing with one another, they were let go, Paul saying one word: Well did the Holy Spirit speak through Isaiah the prophet to our fathers,
Act 28:26 saying, "Go to this people and say: Hearing you shall hear and shall not understand; and seeing you shall see and not perceive.
Act 28:27 For the heart of this people was fattened, and they have heard with their ears dully; and they closed their eyes; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."
Act 28:28 Therefore be it known to you that the salvation of God is sent to the nations, and they will hear.

Do not misunderstand me though: I believe in God's predestination as well. Both man's choice and God's predestination are presented as real in the Bible. To ignore one or the other is to get a one-sided view of salvation. You can do as Luther did, and cut out parts of the Bible; Luther saw that salvation was by faith, and disliked James because it demands works from those who have faith. Some say we are saved by faith, others say that we are saved by works; the truth is, we are saved by faith, as evidenced by works.

The point is, in times past, people did not understand this, and they wanted to cast out either the verses about works or the verses about faith. We can fall into the same error by either wanting to cast out verses about predestination or verses about free will. Just because we don't understand how predestination and free will work together does not give us an excuse to ignore one of them, as people have done in the past with faith versus works.