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Featured LDS David and Solomon

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Phoebe Ann, Sep 11, 2019.

  1. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    Book of Mormon, Jacob 2
    23 But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.

    24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
    Smiley tsk tsk.gif

    Brigham Young, Joseph Smith’s successor as president of the Church of Jesus Christ Latter-day Saints, had 55 wives. :imp:
     
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  2. BigDaddy4

    BigDaddy4 Movin' on...

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    LDS polygamy - flip flopping that rivals many political candidates...
     
  3. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member

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    We've explained this before.

    1. Go down further in Jacob 2 and you'll see verse 30:

    30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

    This provides context for the rest of the citation.

    So many critics of the church pretend that this passage doesn't exist it has become a diagnostic for determining whether or not a person is merely going off of canned arguments rather than having done their own research.

    2. This goes back to 2 Samuel 12:8, where Nathan the Prophet is taking David to task over what happened with Bathsheba -

    8 And I gave thee thy master’s house, and thy master’s wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.

    So basically, God *gave* David his many wives and concubines... but they weren't enough for him, and so he had to kill a man to take another.


    3. This is reinforced by D&C 132 -

    38 David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.

    39 David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.


    So yeah...

    The issue with David was that the wives and concubines he had weren't enough, such that he committed murder to get one more.

    With Solomon, he allowed his wives to lead him astray, and by extension the nation suffered.

    This was two minutes' effort on the church website, in spite of the website not working right since the last "update" and my blanking on one of the passages due to lack of sleep.
     
  4. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    At one time God gave David and Solomon their wives and their kingdoms and would have given them more if they had wanted it.

    But eventually, David committed adultery and murder to get one more wife and Solomon went off the deep end and his wives made him go after gods.

    So that by the time of Jacob in the BOM, the Lord looked on these 2 to have sinned against him, not because he gave them wives, but for other reasons and so all was dark for them.

    Unless God commands plural marriage it is not to be done. If plural marriage is done in sin because one commits murder or adultery, then it is not a good thing from the Lord, because he did not command it. So listen to the Lord, right now he commands us to me married to one wife only. So that is what we do.
     
  5. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Did God flip flop when he gave the right of plural marriage to the Israelites, but then by the time of Christ would not allow plural marriage. Tell me, is that a flip flop?
     
  6. BigDaddy4

    BigDaddy4 Movin' on...

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    There is no flip to the flop. God never gave such a "right".
     
  7. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    God has the right to flip flop or change the rules. He has done so on some occasions.
     
  8. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    I've heard it all before. Mormons think their version of every issue is the correct version.

    1 Chronicles 3
    1 Now these were the sons of David, which were born unto him in Hebron; the firstborn Amnon, of Ahinoam the Jezreelitess; the second Daniel, of Abigail the Carmelitess: 2 The third, Absalom the son of Maachah the daughter of Talmai king of Geshur: the fourth, Adonijah the son of Haggith: 3 The fifth, Shephatiah of Abital: the sixth, Ithream by Eglah his wife. 4 These six were born unto him in Hebron; and there he reigned seven years and six months: and in Jerusalem he reigned thirty and three years. 5 And these were born unto him in Jerusalem; Shimea, and Shobab, and Nathan, and Solomon, four, of Bathshua the daughter of Ammiel: 6 Ibhar also, and Elishama, and Eliphelet, 7 And Nogah, and Nepheg, and Japhia, 8 And Elishama, and Eliada, and Eliphelet, nine. 9 These were all the sons of David, beside the sons of the concubines, and Tamar their sister.

    God gave Adam one wife.

    Jesus and Paul quoted Genesis 2:24. “Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.” (Genesis 2:24).

    Matthew 19
    3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? 4 And [Jesus]he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. 7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? 8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

    The first instance of polygany is in Genesis 4:19. It was Lamech's decision.

    Genesis 4
    17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch. 18 And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methusael: and Methusael begat Lamech. 19 And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah. 20 And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle. 21 And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ. 22 And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubalcain was Naamah.

    Ephesians 5
    31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

    One man, one wife: the ideal.

    Joseph Smith and Brigham young were sinful false prophets. Polygany wasn't God's plan.
     
  9. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member

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    Still awaiting a response to my post...
     
  10. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Read it in the statutes of the Law of Moses. Can't get any more clear than that. Kings, priests, prophets, governors, common people, prophets mothers, all practiced plural marriage, so I would think God gave them the right, or they wouldn't have been doing it. Right?
     
  11. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    Genesis 1
    27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them,
    Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

    1 man, and 1 woman were fruitful and multipled. No second wife was required. But Brigham Young wanted 55 women! Disgusting!

    Book of Mormon, Jacob 2
    27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
    28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
    29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
    30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; OTHERWISE they shall hearken unto these things.

    How stupid verse 30 is.
     
  12. Ignatius the Kiwi

    Ignatius the Kiwi Newbie

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    I'll say this in defense of Mormons. They abandoned the bad practices of their prophets Joseph and Brigham young and our biblical Prophets. They conceded to Christians due to pressure from the US government and now agree that monogamy is better than Polygamy and abandoned the practice. They returned to Apostolic monogamy after the indiscretions of their first two prophets.

    Now Mormons just need to abandon or change more of their doctrines to be in line with the rest of Christendom.
     
  13. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    (Old Testament | Exodus 20:13)

    13 Thou shalt not kill.

    Has the Lord commanded to kill?

    (Old Testament | Numbers 32:15)

    15 For if ye turn away from after him, he will yet again leave them in the wilderness; and ye shall destroy all this people.

    (Old Testament | Deuteronomy 7:23 - 24)

    23 But the LORD thy God shall deliver them unto thee, and shall destroy them with a mighty destruction, until they be destroyed.
    24 And he shall deliver their kings into thine hand, and thou shalt destroy their name from under heaven: there shall no man be able to stand before thee, until thou have destroyed them.
     
  14. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    They don't teach that polygany is wrong. They teach that the polyganists of the nineteenth century will have their many wives in the Celestial Kingdom.
     
  15. Ignatius the Kiwi

    Ignatius the Kiwi Newbie

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    I agree, that is problematic. Give it time though and i can imagine the Mormons changing their position on this matter.

    I reckon Mormons know how unfair it is for Joseph to have the wives of faithful Mormon men whose wives he was spiritually sealed to. They will also have to realize how unfair it is that they themselves don't get multiple spiritual wives while their Prophet does.
     
  16. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for the reconciliatory tone of your post. I appreciate that. Having said that I will change a little of what you said.

    You are right, the federal government was headstrong to kill plural marriage. Finally, they were able to pass legislation that would have given them the right to confiscate all church assets and unofficially close down the church, put all people practicing plural marriage in jail and throw away the keys.
    Therefore the leaders of the church asked the Lord Jesus Christ what should be done. The Lord told them it was time to end plural marriage, that it had accomplished what it was intended to do, and that the laws of the country had changed, and since we were part of this country, we should uphold its laws. Therefore the practice was ended.

    Not abandoned, but ended by the word of the Lord. It came in to practice by the word of the Lord, and it ended by the word of the Lord. Every policy of the church is started and ended by direct revelation with Jesus Christ.

    Policies may change, as the policy of plural marriage. But doctrines do not change, like baptism by immersion in water.
     
  17. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    How do you know if the Lord told them anything? D&C 130 deals with doctrine. When that becomes inconvenient it is no longer doctrine. Mormons wanted statehood so they kowtowed to the U.S. government. They haven't done away with polygany in the CK.

    In 1890, when it became clear that Utah would not be admitted to the Union while polygamy was still the practice, church president Wilford Woodruff issued a Manifesto that officially terminated the practice of polygamy.[6] Although this Manifesto did not dissolve existing plural marriages, relations with the United States markedly improved after 1890, such that Utah was admitted as a U.S. state in 1896. After the Manifesto, some Mormons continued to enter into polygamous marriages, but these eventually stopped in 1904 when church president Joseph F. Smith disavowed polygamy before Congress and issued a "Second Manifesto", calling for all plural marriages in the church to cease and established excommunication as the consequence for those who disobeyed.
    Mormonism and polygamy - Wikipedia

    Modern plural marriage theory within the LDS Church
    Although the LDS Church has abandoned the practice of plural marriage, it has not abandoned the underlying doctrines of polygamy. According to the church's sacred texts and pronouncements by its leaders and theologians, the church leaves open the possibility that it may one day re-institute the practice. It is still the practice of monogamous Mormon couples to be sealed to one another. However, in some circumstances, men and women may be sealed to multiple spouses. Most commonly, a man may be sealed to multiple wives: if his first wife dies, he may be sealed to a second wife. A deceased woman may also be sealed to multiple men, but only through vicarious sealing if they are also deceased.[70]

    70. Handbook 1: Stake Presidents and Bishops (Salt Lake City, Utah: LDS Church, 2010) § 3.6.1.
    Mormonism and polygamy - Wikipedia

    See also Janet Bennion, Women of Principle: Female Networking in Contemporary Mormon Polygyny, New York: Oxford University Press, 1998, p. 20 online at google books: "Ironically, many mainstream Mormons still believe plural marriage to be a law of the highest degree of heaven, simply in suspension until the millennium."
     
  18. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    More:

    Recent decades have brought slight changes to church policy on marriage sealings, which can also be performed by proxy for deceased ancestors. In 1998 the church changed its policy to also allow women to be sealed to all of the spouses to whom they were legally married, but only by proxy after they have died. The church statement about the unknown nature of these relationships in the next life also applied here.
    LDS doctrine leaves potential for 'eternal polygamy'
     
  19. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    Yet we know the future:

    (Old Testament | Isaiah 4:1 - 6)

    1 AND in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.
    2 In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.
    3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
    4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.
    5 And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence.
    6 And there shall be a tabernacle for a shadow in the daytime from the heat, and for a place of refuge, and for a covert from storm and from rain.


    We also know that some laws do change, when Jesus came to the earth He made the ten commandments obsolete.
     
  20. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    Cite chapter and verse please.

    Matthew 22
    37
    Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
     
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