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Dating is a sin- just be friends till your married, no need to complicate...

Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by createdtoworship, Mar 4, 2020.

  1. Archivist

    Archivist Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Evidence to support that claim? Please provide it. Burden of proof rests with the affirmative.

    You ignore the fact that the two letters to Timothy and the letter to Titus are pastoral letters. They describe how a pastor should deal with his congregation.
     
  2. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    The Bible Translation That Rocked the World

    see catholics typically did services in latin, after luther coined the term "sola scriptura." He promoted the Bible for the average believer, not just the clergy. So instead of "all latin" services, it promoted the bible in the language of the average congregant. So that is what I was referring to, I am not sure if that happened in catholicism during the counter reformation or when. But eventually due to the reformation catholics started having masses in the common languages.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2020
  3. Archivist

    Archivist Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Yes, I’m Lutheran. I’m fully aware that Luther translated the Bible into German. That doesn’t mean that this letter wasn’t written to those leading churches. In his Commentaries on the Bible Luther wrote the following regarding 1Timothy: “This Epistle Paul writes to give a model to all bishops of what they are to teach and how they are to rule the church on every station, so that it may not be necessary for them to rule Christians according to their own human opinions.”

    Luther was an interesting man and his wife Katharine was known for being an excellent brewer.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2020
  4. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    okay so here you need to see that luther agrees with me....."a model to biships of what they are to teach"

    who are they teaching?

    the church

    So again there is no commentary that says timothy is only to pastors and that this information does not apply indirectly to the church (as being led by the pastors).

    so your whole point falls apart at this point.

    I am glad you posted that article. I could post more if you want, but I feel you will just not agree with them either. For those just stepping in to this debate, this is my premise regarding purity in dating. That the current definition of dating is sinful. And that either people need to redefine dating, to exclude the physical aspect of the relationship (no kissing, petting, etc). Or they need to just not date entirely and just be friends up until marriage, which is my recommendation. See people think dating is a 'status' that offers responsibility and benefits. Like because 'your dating' your hand can go on her rear end, or your tongue can go in her mouth." It says in 1 Tim 5 to treat younger women as your 'sister.' How far is too far with your sister? mother? So too you should do nothing physically to your 'date' that you would not also do with your mother or sister. "with all purity" it says. So the passage is in regards to purity. Archivist here has said that this passage is for pastors not the laity. But then I mention, this passage is about purity, so which pastors in the context is having problems with purity that they need this exhoration. Furthermore, it is safe to say most of the new testament was written by pastors or future pastors or at least apostles (which is very similiar to a pastor, but a little more exhalted), so if most of the testament was written by christian leaders does that mean that it is not for us? No. We can read the Bible verse by verse and apply it for us. Context is also important, but not as much in the new testament as most of the levitical laws were done away with, circumcision etc. But the new testament was written pretty straight forward to the average christian. So to if one only had a scripture in hand and no one to teach them, they could read and be saved, simply by reading the Bible. So I think it is a dangerous doctrine that the catholic church originally endorsed which was to have some scripture only to be known by the clergy and not the laity. That is why I mention the latin services, and how the latin services slowly dwindled out during the counter reformation days. But following luthers translation, many other bible translators also followed suit. But luther started it, and it was in part by the clergy attempting to hide doctrine from the laity in the form of latin services and latin bibles.
     
  5. HermanNeutics13

    HermanNeutics13 Regular Member

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    There is an aspect of this I agree with and a lot that I don't. I agree that the best way to go about getting to know someone is being friends first and I do think it's a problem in the modern culture to assume that you can date someone you just met. You should get to know them for a while before you ca even determine if you have any other interest. As for not "claiming" someone the Bible in fact does talk about this. Read the book of Ruth, the majority of the book is about Boaz claiming Ruth. Marriages don't happen overnight, even in the ancient times. There was always a period where the two people decided they wanted to be married but had to wait until the preparations were done.
     
  6. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    yes boaz was a kinsman redeemer as per old testament law, he had to claim her. That is not dating, or anything to do with modern marriage. But dating is not a relationship in the Bible you are either single or married. If you are not planning to marry your partner in the next six months, there is absolutely no need to expedite 'naming this' as a relationship and that someone you have possession of your partner, when under God you don't.
     
  7. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    I was listening to a podcast on dating, I am still working through a series I posted on this thread, however John Piper has a free online book RE: Biblical manhood and Biblical womanhood....Here is a quote of 2 Timothy regarding treating younger women as sisters and older women as mothers.

    "Similarly, in 1 Timothy 5:1-2 we can see the beginnings of an argument. “Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father. Treat younger men as brothers, older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity.” The key comparative word as might possibly be interpreted as introducing mere illustrations. But all the illustrations are of exactly the same type, in that they all use the analogy between church and family. In view of the general statement about conduct in “God’s household” in 1 Timothy 3:14-15, the comparisons in 5:1-2 are to be seen as so many ways of fleshing out the impli-cations of being a member of God’s household. We can perceive the obligatory nature of the inferences. You must treat the older men like fathers, the younger men like brothers, etc., not only because in some very general sense you must love them, but because you are part of the very same spiritual household. Conduct toward any other member of the household must take into account not merely sweepingly general obligations to love but the concrete distinctions introduced by differences in status within the household: treating some like fathers, others like brothers, others like mothers, others like sisters. Hence, 1 Timothy 5:1-2 presup-poses the structure of an argument. The church is like a family. Therefore you must treat fellow church members like fellow family members."
     
  8. bèlla

    bèlla ❤️ Supporter

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    I don’t date my friends. We have platonic connections. I expect men to acknowledge their interest and intentions so there’s no ambiguity. I don’t engage with men afraid of rejection who use a backdoor approach. If a lady interests them they say it.

    There are many couples who are perfectly content in being abstinent. I’m curious how much real life relational experience the OP has with the opposite sex. This reads like something conjured in the head with little resting beneath it.

    As someone presently dating a gentleman who desired my hand in the past and feels the same today. I can attest that marriage minded men aren’t desirous of playing hokey pokey with a woman’s mind or heart. They’re looking for fit and a godly disposition.

    People behave differently with their friends than they do with companions. It’s a different form of intimacy with highs and lows you may never encounter in your friendship. Some people are great friends and shoddy partners.

    ~Bella
     
  9. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    I love that you think of men with more dignity than the shallow way I present them. But again I am talking about young men, not necessarily christian men persay. But the younger version of myself. I had my heart broken by three engagements, mainly because i was too physical with the opposite sex. So now that I had a few decades to think about it, I desire to point young men that were in my shoes, down the right path.
     
  10. bèlla

    bèlla ❤️ Supporter

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    I have mentored women and helped them find partners from age 22 and up. I understand men in that group. :)

    You’re not dating you. Ambiguity isn’t a man’s friend. It makes him look weak and uncertain to the opposite sex. They want someone who communicates confidence and dependability.

    You’re taking an aggressive stance when the numbers don’t support that approach. The Single’s forum is filled with men who’ve never had a partner and more than a few who can’t find one.

    You’re looking for a needle in the haystack and should give them the honest truth about the consequences of that choice. They may be waiting a long while and there’s no guarantee she'll do the same if a compelling offer comes.

    ~Bella
     
  11. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    You write very well. I give you that. It's just that it is all wrong. I don't honestly think you understand men, because you don't have testosterone. Now I can't convince you of that, as you have already convinced yourself of the opposite. But anyway, if you can find a verse that supports dating. I would love to hear it. Until then I guess it's an argument from silence.
     
  12. Isilwen

    Isilwen Well-Known Member

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    And yet you still haven't really provided evidence that supports your position beyond extrapolating a verse into what you want it to say.

    You are taking your sins from your past and making a blanket statement for all, when that is not how that works. If you cannot date, then don't date, but there are many many more men that can date and not fall into the sins that you did. Myself included. Just because you did something doesn't mean that all will.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2020
  13. Archivist

    Archivist Senior Veteran Supporter

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    And you have provided nothing Hong from Scripture to support your side. You have made the claim, burden of proof rests with you.
     
  14. bèlla

    bèlla ❤️ Supporter

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    Thank you for the compliment. :)

    No, I don’t have testosterone. It is equally true that you are not a lady. But if you look beyond the obvious and consider what’s driving us. You’ll see many similarities. You are trying to help younger men by utilizing your knowledge and experiences to serve them. I have done the same and taken many under my wing.

    If we’re going to address the subject biblically, we must see the subject from their perspective. They aren’t privy to our knowledge or experiences. Their concept of dating will be deeply influenced by cultural and religious ideals. Until they develop their own.

    In the bible, women had little say in their choice of suitors. We’re given examples of a servant or prospective spouse choosing her themselves. If you were dealing with a pair willing to consider an arranged marriage that’s the ideal approach.

    The Biblical Model

    But in modern times, he is required to win her hand. It won’t be secured expectantly because he wants her. Nevertheless, the biblical examples illustrate an important element. A secondary person, usually a relative, who wields great influence on the individual. In each instance we see a pattern of response and obedience. The prospective spouse is told to do something and they comply.

    Thus, the biblical model requires a strong family unit or influential person whose character and trustworthiness earned their respect. The second criteria is humility. If the individual is non compliant they won’t adhere to the counsel they’ve been given.

    God’s Plan

    We’re addressing humble men and women with teachable spirits who desire to marry. How do you bring them to the point of man and wife? More importantly, how does God want both to proceed?

    Then the LORD God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.” Genesis 2:18

    “The man” is not the same as “a man.” We can infer that God fashioned the helper with ‘him’ in mind. Therefore, a man mustn’t seek a companion solely from his perspective. He should begin with God’s at the forefront. But he must be certain marriage is His intention.

    Because...

    Many plans are in a man’s heart, but the purpose of the LORD will prevail.Proverbs 19:21

    In other words, what we desire may not support the Lord’s purpose for our lives. That is foremost. What kind of wife does He provide?

    A prudent wife is from the LORD.Proverbs 19:14

    Prudence is defined as:

    Derives from the Latin prudentia meaning "foresight, sagacity.” It is the ability to govern and discipline oneself by the use of reason. It is often associated with wisdom, insight, and knowledge. In this case, the virtue is the ability to judge between virtuous and vicious actions, not only in a general sense, but with regard to appropriate actions at a given time and place.

    The function of prudence is to point out which course of action is to be taken in any concrete circumstances. It has nothing to do with directly willing the good it discerns. Prudence has a directive capacity with regard to the other virtues. It lights the way and measures the arena for their exercise.


    Therefore, a prudent wife will be knowledgeable, discriminating and wise. Using your position, he is welcome to befriend believers of the opposite sex. But his considerations for companions should be restricted to those whose character and countenance reflects the qualities God described.

    The second criteria is fit. But there’s a caveat. This is the issue you’re referencing.

    Keep your heart with all vigilance, for from it flow the springs of life.Proverbs 4:23

    This is a reminder about the necessity of restraint. We can’t get carried away. Temperance is required.

    Temperance in its modern use is defined as moderation or voluntary self-restraint. It is typically described in terms of what an individual voluntarily refrains from doing.

    Where to Begin

    This is the starting point and appropriate mindset. It isn’t steeped in longing or loneliness. Or influenced by negative experiences and fear. Its wholly grounded and expectant. We’re broaching the subject from God’s perspective. Not our own. And we’re willing to act when He presents viable candidates.

    But if we inhibit His movement or permit fears and biases to impede our judgment. We may be subject to unpleasant experiences and disappointment. The first rule for each is aligning themselves with God and exercising restraint over their flesh.

    Personal Experience

    How might this look today? I’ll share my experience.

    I met my companion on a forum two years ago. He messaged me regarding a post he saw in an etiquette group offering advice for lady’s desiring gentlemen. I provided practical and behavioral helps for their edification.

    Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled. Titus 2:3-5

    When he encountered me I was busy serving others and offering instruction and support. He had much to glean from which provoked the note. But he didn’t present himself. He asked a question instead.

    An excellent wife who can find? She is far more precious than jewels. —Proverbs 31:10

    He wanted to know how he could find the woman I described in my posts. He acknowledged a desire to marry and the difficulty he’d experienced in meeting someone with the qualities and disposition I spoke of. I was happy to help.

    We exchanged several messages. He provided additional feedback and I responded in kind. Our discourse was engaging. We realized we’d found what we sought in the other. Devoid of propositions and scrutiny. Or pictures at the moment. The connection was genuine without pretense.

    But the stumbling block was my calling and its demands. It contradicted the life he sought. In the two years that followed, God sloughed away the impediments within each that would prohibit us from accepting His will without argument. Letting Him choose is harder than it sounds.

    She does him good, and not harm, all the days of her life.Proverbs 31:12

    Our reconciliation was unexpected. The pandemic threw us together. I reached out to see how he was doing. He lived in a hotspot and I was concerned. But the Lord moved him elsewhere in our time apart. He was safe.

    Likewise, urge the younger men to be self-controlled. Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity, and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us.Titus 2:6-8

    The pandemic was challenging for most. I lost my grandmother as the shutdown began; not to the virus. We couldn’t have a service. I was grappling with grief, stress, and business concerns for myself and my daughter. He was a continued source of support and encouragement. His steadiness made a difference. We weren’t dating or thinking along those lines.

    Without counsel plans fail, but with many advisers they succeed. Proverbs 15:22

    He began to acknowledge how well we worked together and our missions complemented one another. I didn’t think anything of it. My mother, aunt, and best friend broached the subject. They asked me to consider if the Lord was leading me towards him. They provide examples of his character and behavior which might suggest personal interest. I pondered their comments and prayed for insight. I thought I’d go in a different direction. Then the riots hit.

    Holy Alignment

    Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.Philippians 2:3-4

    My welfare was his primary concern. He stayed abreast of the developments in my area. Our neighborhood was under siege and greatly damaged. The violence and gunshots were unsettling. But he remained with me through it all and continued to do so each day since it began.

    Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends.1 Corinthians 13:7-8

    As the calamity unfolded around me, I was struck with a clarity and knowing that resounded within my spirit. I saw him through different eyes. His care and concern and attentiveness didn’t escape my notice. He asked for nothing in return. There was a mutual acknowledgment of what existed between us. No heartfelt declarations or Hallmark moments. “It is” and that was enough. We understood.

    Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins.1 Peter 4:8

    In the course of our connection we’ve served one another unselfishly. Seeing the other bettered is a source of joy. It doesn’t hinge on togetherness. Meeting his needs is fulfilling and I’m discovering new ways to do so as he’s done on my behalf.

    I adjure you, O daughters of Jerusalem, that you not stir up or awaken love until it pleases.Song of Solomon 8:4

    We don’t behave romantically. In spite of our attraction. It isn’t the focal point of our relationship. Nor is physicality. We desire something greater. Permanency is our goal.

    Some might say we’re dating. Others would call it courtship. But I prefer the third option in their place. Two people honoring God and one another within our companionship. That’s my story. :)

    ~Bella
     
  15. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    Again if that is the case dating as a concept would be in the bible. Engagements are in bible.
     
  16. Isilwen

    Isilwen Well-Known Member

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    Not necessarily. There are many things that we do that aren't in the Bible.
     
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  17. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    but being betrothed is in the Bible, being married is in the Bible, your saying that dating is not important enough to be mentioned, but betrothed is? Well if God thinks it's not important, than I guess it's not important to me. Again you are literally in a dating relationship, so I don't think you are of the mindset to think clearly on this matter. There is inherent bias. My comments are towards those young single people out there.
     
  18. Isilwen

    Isilwen Well-Known Member

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    Driving a car isn't in the Bible, but riding a donkey is, should we ditch cars because it's not mentioned? Chariots are mentioned in the Bible, but cars are not, should we ditch cars? The books and letters of the Bible were written on ancient paper, should we ditch modern paper or our computers, neither of which are in the Bible? There are many things not mentioned in the Bible.

    Pot meet kettle! You fell into sin, so you have an inherent bias, but that doesn't mean everyone will.

    As is mine, along with being towards you so that you can see that what you're doing is taking your sin and extrapolating it to all men, and essentially making a commandment that God never made, which you cannot do.
     
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  19. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    again if dating is important, it would be mentioned yes. After all God knew the idea of dating when the Bible was written. God named king cyrus hundreds of years before he was even born. don't you think he could do that same thing? Donkeys are in the Bible, cars are not. But locomotion is mentioned. So to marriage is mentioned, being engaged is mentioned, but dating is not. Therefore it's technically not biblical.
     
  20. Isilwen

    Isilwen Well-Known Member

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    Again, neither are many things. Us using these forums on the internet isn't in the Bible. Will you stop using them?

    If not, that's hypocritical.
     
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