Date and Authorship of Daniel

Anto9us

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Dispute among Bible scholars as to whether Daniel was written during the time of the Babylonian Captivity (600's BC), or if it was EX EVENTU Prophecy written in the Macabbean period (167 BC)

Big difference -- and yet one thing is clear -- one thing cannot be EX EVENTU

Messiah being cut off after 69 of the 70 weeks of years

There's no getting around it -- if you start from a decree by Persian King in Nehemiah to cut down trees, rebuild walls and city of Jerusalem (about 444-445 BC) -- and you do the 69 "weeks" as weeks of 360 day years

You come right to the crucifixion -- about 32-33 AD

So, regardless of date of origin, Daniel is a supernatural book predicting "cutting off"
( death ) of Messiah -- far in the future from when it was writeen, either way you look at it.

Thoughts?
 

miamited

Ted
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Daniel is one of the greatest prophetic writings of the old covenant. I'm confident that it was written during the Babylonian captivity. One of the telltale signs for me is the visitation by the angel, Gabriel. The telling of that account is in the first person present tense.

Sadly, in order that we can feel justified in ourselves to dispute what the Scriptures say, there is a major move by many scholars to now make claims that a lot of the writings, that have for centuries been claimed by Jews and christians to have been written in the days of the men who they are written about, were written at much later dates. Part of this is to deny much of the prophetic nature of the Scriptures.

Sure, it's easy for any one of us to write something about a time long past and to throw in accounts of events that we now know happened. This is what many are attempting to do and there is a fairly wide following on those people. They have a multitude of itching ears that are harking to their evidences and theories. However, you're right about the prophetic nature of Daniel chapter 9. The only way it could have been back dated prophecy is for it to have been written after 32 A.D. or so and we know that's not the case. We have copies of Daniel that we know to have existed before that time.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted
 
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inquiring mind

and a discerning heart
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Supporters of the earlier writing of Daniel (600’s B.C.) generally argue that it was evidenced by the Dead Sea Scrolls. Found in the Scrolls was a copy of Daniel made about 110 B.C. They hold that it is highly unlikely that in a period of only 55 years a false origin could've been concealed or could it have been copied many times, widely circulated and become recognized as canonical. For these reasons they believe the earlier date of 500-600 B.C. is supported.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Dispute among Bible scholars as to whether Daniel was written during the time of the Babylonian Captivity (600's BC), or if it was EX EVENTU Prophecy written in the Macabbean period (167 BC)

Big difference -- and yet one thing is clear -- one thing cannot be EX EVENTU

Messiah being cut off after 69 of the 70 weeks of years

There's no getting around it -- if you start from a decree by Persian King in Nehemiah to cut down trees, rebuild walls and city of Jerusalem (about 444-445 BC) -- and you do the 69 "weeks" as weeks of 360 day years

You come right to the crucifixion -- about 32-33 AD

So, regardless of date of origin, Daniel is a supernatural book predicting "cutting off"
( death ) of Messiah -- far in the future from when it was writeen, either way you look at it.

Thoughts?

My thoughts? Mine are basically that you're definitely right, which is too bad then for ultra-liberal and skeptical scholars ...

But, when people decide they don't want to believe, they somehow become very good at confusing the issues, particularly when it comes to prophetic books like Daniel. :cool:

Peace
2PhiloVoid
 
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Anto9us

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there is a major move by many scholars to now make claims that a lot of the writings, that have for centuries been claimed by Jews and christians to have been written in the days of the men who they are written about, were written at much later dates. Part of this is to deny much of the prophetic nature of the Scriptures.

and yes, 2PhiloVoid -- how much of modern scholarship's skepticism is due to "they don't want to believe" - I dunno...

And more than Daniel is involved, as Ted said -- stuff like "Second Isaiah, Trito-Isaiah" and so on and Textual Criticism just becomes "confusing the issues"
 
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hedrick

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Big difference -- and yet one thing is clear -- one thing cannot be EX EVENTU

Messiah being cut off after 69 of the 70 weeks of years

There's no getting around it -- if you start from a decree by Persian King in Nehemiah to cut down trees, rebuild walls and city of Jerusalem (about 444-445 BC) -- and you do the 69 "weeks" as weeks of 360 day years
Right. But it's the starting point that's the issue. There are lots of different starting points suggested. You can certainly find one that results in the prophecy referring to Jesus, particularly if you're allowed to adjust the number of days in a year, but there are reasonable argument for a number of other starting points.
 
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Anto9us

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I think there are at least three other "decrees" allowing Jews to go back to Jerusalem other than (and earlier) than the one in Nehemiah (444-445 BC), Hedrick, but the point is -- that one WORKS -- and it mentions WALLS like the prophecy

So it's either an EXTREME COINCIDENCE or it's the one
 
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Anto9us

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Dan 9:25

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again,

and the wall, even in troublous times.

9:26

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off,

but not for himself:

and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;
and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


9:27

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

-------
Notice that the "he" in 9:27 has as its nearest antecedent above, "prince" in the phrase "the people of the prince that shall come". The "he" is not Messiah -- who was "cut off" at end of a total of 69 weeks
"wall" is specifically mentioned in Daniel 9:25 (as well as in Nehemiah 2:8 that I have posted below
-------

Neh 2:7

Moreover I said unto the king, If it please the king, let letters be given me to the governors beyond the river, that they may convey me over till I come into Judah;

Neh 2:8

And a letter unto Asaph the keeper of the king's forest, that he may give me timber to make beams for the gates of the palace which appertained to the house,


and for the wall of the city,


and for the house that I shall enter into. And the king granted me, according to the good hand of my God upon me.
------

It was definitely "troublous times" when wall and buildings were being built, this was when the Jews worked with a tool in one hand and a weapon in the other, because enemies were trying to harass them

The "Macabean period" date of authorship was put forth long ago by Porphyry, an enemy of Christianity, not that that necessarily means it can't be true

There is so much disagreement about stuff in Daniel among Bible scholars -- some say the four empires from the composite statue (of Nebuchadnezzar's dream) are
Babylon,
Medo-Persia
Greece
Rome

and some "split up" Medes and Persians and make it

Babylon
Media
Persia
Greece

with Rome entirely out of the picture, other than possibly "the ships of Kittim" who thwarted plans of Antiochus Epiphanes

But did a Grecian prince ever "destroy" Jerusalem and "sanctuary/Temple"?

I forget all this "fancy math" about the different "possible decrees", and even why the one in Nehemiah 2 was tagged at 444-445 BC

I think one other "possible decree" was as early as 538 BC...

It's just a "preponderance of the evidence" thing to me, that Rome is 4th empire of the composite statue

Titus of Rome attacked Jerusalem in 70 AD -- and his men burned the Temple and tore stones one from another -- looting gold that had melted in between stones; so "not one stone was left upon another" (just as Jesus prophesied)
 
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Anto9us

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onias_III

And now we come to "Messiah is not really Messiah", and all of that...

if we substitute "an anointed one" for "Messiah" -- some put forth the proposition that it is the High Priest Onias III that is the "anointed one" - Onias III was indeed "cut off" (murdered)

so some maintain that 'cut off after a total of 69 shauvim' from a starting point of an okay by Persian authorities to go back and build city/wall HAS NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH JESUS!

I am more interested in motivation (on the part of liberal Bible scholars) than mathematics; it is not even necessary to use 360 rather than 365 day years -- it's "close enough for jazz" either way -- we don't have pin-point accuracy on dates that far back
 
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Anto9us

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Another unique thing about Daniel is -- relation to OTHER OLD TESTAMENT PROPHETS.

Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy is essentially a "prophecy based on an earlier prophecy".

Daniel said he "understood by books" a number of years for the Babylonian exile, based on Jeremiah. Daniel himself was already doing the "fancy math" on Jeremiah's prophecy...

Ezekiel, a contemporary of Daniel, mentions Daniel in a reference along with Noah and Job; and also alludes to Daniel's wisdom saying "are you wiser than Daniel?"

Again, the liberal scholar comeback to that is "Oh, Ezekiel REALLY MEANT 'Dan'el" -- an ancient Ugaritic worthy, rather than th eDaniel of the Bible.

Uh huh. Sure.
 
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Anto9us

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Oh, it's POSSIBLE that Ezekiel would throw in some totally non-biblical character in a reference alongside Job and Noah, but seems unlikely.

Lastly -- in the deuterocanonical section of Daniel, the Prophet Habakkuk appears, being whisked away by an angel while Habakkuk is making stew -- Habakkuk is carried to Babylon to the lion's den to give Daniel his supper, lowers a pot of stew down so Daniel can eat while in the lion's den.

The ORTHODOX STUDY BIBLE, which includes this section as canonical, has in its commentary note that Habakkuk himself was really EARLIER than Daniel, by as much as a century; and asserts that Habakkuk was transported NOT ONLY IN SPACE BUT IN TIME!

Beam me up, Scotty, set me down in the future, too...

Old Testament prophets generally do not "appear in one another's books" -- this is something pretty UNIQUE to Daniel
 
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hedrick

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Just because Daniel was written late, that doesn't mean Daniel couldn't have existed. Most pseudonymous books were written in the name of someone real.

The first half of the book has stories about Daniel. I doubt the author of the book just made up the person. How much the stories are history and how much legend is up for debate, but either way there's no reason earlier books couldn't have referred to Daniel. As to the mention together with Noah and Job, they were almost certainly legendary. The story of Noah is certainly not historical, and the book of Job is reflections on the situation of a well-known character which need not have been historical. The reference in Ezekiel isn't an historical account. It's referring to people known for their righteousness. A modern author could say "even if superman were here ..." without implying his literal existence.
 
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Anto9us

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A modern author could say "even if superman were here ..." without implying his literal existence.

That's a good point, Hedrick, and on the days I swing back to a "late date" origin of Daniel, I employ logic like that to "get Jesus off the hook" when he refers to "the prophet Daniel"...

just like I could go to a lumberjack contest, and say "Wow, the guy that cut the most wood was a real Paul Bunyan!"

my point would be understood, but no one would think I actually believed in the true existence of a giant lumberjack who went around with a giant ox...

Whether Noah is historical or not, whether the flood has to be taken as 'universal' -- I dunno -- other cultures had a 'flood story' with Utnapishtim as their 'Noah'

Job I think is a Play

One fact is, about Daniel the book, many of the current arguments against it beinwritten in the Babylonian captivity were put forth by Porphyry long ago -- not pointed out by 'modern Bible scholars' (who just took them over)

Porphyry wrote fifteen books AGAINST CHRISTIANITY

Porphyry (philosopher) - Wikipedia
 
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Anto9us

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Nothing about Christianity "falls to the ground" for me if Daniel is pseudonymous, written EX EVENTU, but it seems too big a coincidence that the first 69 weeks ends right at the Cross if the starting point is the most logical choice of the "release by Persian monarch to go back and rebuild"

If Daniel is a "fake book" written circa 167 BC -- it is simply TOO LUCKY that Jesus fits as the Messiah who is cut off 69 shauvim from the decree/letter of Nehemiah 2 -- the odds seem like a monkey on a typewriter and the Gettysburg Address results from its typing
 
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hedrick

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One fact is, about Daniel the book, many of the current arguments against it beinwritten in the Babylonian captivity were put forth by Porphyry long ago -- not pointed out by 'modern Bible scholars' (who just took them over)

Porphyry wrote fifteen books AGAINST CHRISTIANITY

Porphyry (philosopher) - Wikipedia
At least according to the Word commentary, a Greek translation made the connection of events in 9:25 with the time of Antiochus more clear than it was in the text. So do allusions in 1 and 2 Mac. In Jewish usage, the book is part of the writings, not the prophets. I don't know what Porphyry wrote, but if he objected to Christian interpretation, he wouldn't have been the first to do so.

Part of the issue is understanding the purpose of the book. Even if it was written early, it was addressing Jews living during the time of Antiochus. This was a period when their faith was under attack, and there were all kinds of issues about how far it was appropriate to go in accommodating the world around them. I believe the author was using traditional stories that at least nominally addresses a previous crisis (though a few people have suggested that the first half is actually historical, and the visions are from later, based on that).

I'm concerned that seeing it as a prediction from hundreds of years before misses the point of the work, which is an author trying to help his contemporaries use their tradition to address contemporary problems. Here's a paragraph from the preface to the Word commentary:

"It has seemed worthwhile because Daniel thus needs rescuing from at least three kinds of would-be friends who are actually foes that imperil its being heard.

"One kind is those who preoccupy themselves with merely historical questions about the accuracy or otherwise of its presentation of sixth and second-century history, as if the solving of such questions constituted the interpretation of the book. Another kind is those who have turned Daniel into children’s stories (the young men in the fiery furnace/Daniel in the lion’s den), when the stories are of such deadly seriousness about problems facing adult believers living their lives in a strange land—like ourselves—that they almost require protecting from use in a children’s context because of the trivializing this leads to. A third kind is those who treat the visions as mere coded preview of events to unfold in the Middle East, threatening to deprive them of their power to speak to situations when people are not merely exiled in a strange land but faced with the total dissolution of faith and hope. If the commentary contributes to one or two readers of Daniel finding themselves in its stories and reflecting in the light of them on their own lives, or to their looking on past, present, and future in the light of its own visionary perspective on past, present, and future, I shall be happy. I should add, however, that it has been my experience with Daniel as with other books that an appreciation of its inherent significance and its particular meaningfulness for us emerges from close working with the text in all its detailed “irrelevance,” and I cannot promise that one hears the Scriptures speak without that close and prosaic work."
 
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hedrick

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I should also point out what being a prophet is about. Prophecy isn't about predicting the future, though such predictions are part of it. It's about telling one's contemporaries what God wants them to do. In that context they sometimes say that God is about to destroy the nation if they don't shape up. After disaster, they give a vision of God's long-term purposes. So future is involved. But they aren't about creating proof texts for Christians, or even solving problems of people living hundreds of years in the future.

In trying to make Dan 9:25 about Jesus, people are avoiding the point of the book, which is to help the writer's contemporaries see events of their own time as part of God's plan.
 
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Anto9us

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three kinds of would-be friends who are actually foes that imperil its being heard.

I am trying to comprehend that Word Commentary paragraph...

Obviously, I started this thread because I wanted to know what others think; these questions about Daniel have tossed me about ever since college days in the '70's
 
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