Discussion Dare not to call yourself spirit filled if..

Alithis

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and @Alithis

Please read this carefully on the two different types of sin that the apostles are speaking of. It will help. This explains why a Christian cannot sin according to 1 John 3:9 that has caused so much confusion.

In John 3:1-10 (vs. 4) John said what kind of sin it is. LAWLESSNESS. Only a person walking in darkness commits lawlessness. Matthew 7:23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

I always insert "willful," because it is of the will and in full knowledge. It could also be called lawless, presumptuous, or tempting God. It is with our knowledge of sin. This should give us pause: James 4:17 Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.

Now check out Leviticus 5:15. Unintentional sin is called a TRESPASS (ring any bells) (We will commit trespasses, also called debts in some translations, and is included in the Lord's Prayer. But both are unintentional sin. “If a person commits a trespass, and sins unintentionally in regard to the holy things of the Lord, then he shall bring to the Lord as his trespass offering..."

1 John 1:7 talks about a person walking in the light; however, the blood of Jesus is still cleansing him of sin. So if someone is walking in the Spirit, will he commit a lawless/willful/presumptuous sin; or a trespass sin not of his will.

A Christian doesn't commit the lawless/willful/presumptuous sins. But if they do, in the OT they killed them, as there was no sacrifice for them who were of God's chosen people. They knew better.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

Do word searches: unintentional, trespass, presumptuous, willful, tempt ("Thou shalt not tempt the Lord Thy God" said by Jesus to Satan in the wildreness)


Presumptuous:

Exodus 21:14

Numbers 15:30

Deuteronomy 1:43

Deuteronomy 17:12

Deuteronomy 17:13

Deuteronomy 18:22

Psalm 19:13

2 Peter 2:10

Lawless:

Matthew 7:23

Matthew 13:41

Matthew 23:28

Matthew 24:12

Acts 2:23

Romans 6:19

2 Corinthians 6:14

2 Thessalonians 2:7

1 Timothy 1:9

Titus 2:14

Hebrews 1:9

1 John 3:4



Trespass:

Leviticus 5:15
“If a person commits a trespass, and sins unintentionally in regard to the holy things of the Lord, then he shall bring to the Lord as his trespass offering a ram without blemish from the flocks, with your valuation in shekels of silver according to the shekel of the sanctuary, as a trespass offering.

Leviticus 22:14

Deuteronomy 4:42

Deuteronomy 19:4

Joshua 20:3

Joshua 20:5

Ezekiel 45:20


Unintentional:

Leviticus 4:2

Leviticus 4:13

Leviticus 4:22

Leviticus 4:27

Leviticus 5:15

Leviticus 22:14

Numbers 15:22-29

Deuteronomy 4:42

Deuteronomy 19:4

Joshua 20:3

Joshua 20:5

Ezekiel 45:20
yeah good stuff .

i make the error of assuming every one gets that already haha.
the unintentional are often in regard to laws and we are not bound by that law being that we died in Christ so a lot of what was once unintentional sin doesn't apply . but most people who say ..you cant stop sinning ARE in too often generalizing about an unmentioned specific sin they want to be excused for doing
:(

ps; im not taking your post lightly i have copy/pasted for further study later :) ans thank you for the material . as we grow in understanding we come in and out of tune with one another and this material will help me explain it to another in the near future (not on CF, we do very real discipling we are full time missionaries )
i cant recall as i had a almost 8 mnth break from CF but i have a feeling you and i were out of tune with one another 8 or more months ago and could not reach the same notes of song ,so to speak haha . yet here later we are hitting concord .. God is very amazing :)
 
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1stcenturylady

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But there always will be in my opinion sins that we commit willfully and we need to repent and ask forgiveness, if for example we get angered and say something hurtful thats it, a willfull sin and we need to ask forgiveness, some Christians sin heavily in some areas and they are sincere when they say they want to stop but cannot stop doing it, there they need help of the holy spirit to kill the flesh etc.
Can someone reach a point that there no need for forgiveness anymore because they do not sin willfully or not? i don't think so.

Being angry is not a sin in itself. Ephesians 4:25-27 says, Therefore, laying aside falsehood, speak truth each one of you with his neighbor, for we are members of one another. 26 Be angry, and yet do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, 27 and do not give the devil an opportunity.

Proverbs 27:5-6
5 Better is open rebuke
Than love that is concealed.
6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend,
But deceitful are the kisses of an enemy.

These are not sins of lawlessness. But they could turn into transgressions. I find transgressions could be against one or more of the fruit of the Spirit. (Immature fruit, as opposed to mature fruit.)
 
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1stcenturylady

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yeah good stuff .

i make the error of assuming every one gets that already haha.
the unintentional are often in regard to laws and we are not bound by that law being that we died in Christ so a lot of what was once unintentional sin doesn't apply . but most people who say ..you cant stop sinning ARE in too often generalizing about an unmentioned specific sin they want to be excused for doing
:(

ps; im not taking your post lightly i have copy/pasted for further study later :) ans thank you for the material . as we grow in understanding we come in and out of tune with one another and this material will help me explain it to another in the near future (not on CF, we do very real discipling we are full time missionaries )
i cant recall as i had a almost 8 mnth break from CF but i have a feeling you and i were out of tune with one another 8 or more months ago and could not reach the same notes of song ,so to speak haha . yet here later we are hitting concord .. God is very amazing :)

I can't remember. But we sure are on the same page now. :)
 
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Tolworth John

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Where do you learn this stuff? What nonsense to think that Jesus is just going to keep you helpless and just forgiven to do it all over again. How is that becoming a child of God?

You are wrong on every point you just made. But there is a clue in your post #22. You said, I would love not to be tormented by a guilty consence, but I know I fail at holy living. Fortunetly I have a saviour who knows my weaknesses and is willing to forgive me.

I fear for you. Yes, Jesus is willing to forgive you. But have you ever actually repented as in Acts 2:38 You need help, and like it or not, and whether you ever read it, I'm going to send you my testimony. Watch for mail. I really want to help you.

There is no need to fear for me.
The idea that Christians can live a sinless perfect life here on earth is false and the bible no where supports it.
 
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1stcenturylady

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There is no need to fear for me.
The idea that Christians can live a sinless perfect life here on earth is false and the bible no where supports it.

That is just it. Jesus told us to be. But you keep telling yourself it is impossible. You fail in your mind, before you begin. So guess what? You've justified failure.
 
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1stcenturylady

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@NBB and @Alithis

Check out the New Testament verses on trespasses. I added them to my document.

1 Chronicles 10:13
So Saul died for his trespass which he committed against the Lord, because of the word of the Lord which he did not keep; and also because he asked counsel of a medium, making inquiry of it,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2 Corinthians 5:19
namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Galatians 6:1
[ Bear One Another’s Burdens ] Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Ephesians 1:7
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Ephesians 2:1
[ Made Alive in Christ ] And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
 
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Tolworth John

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Alithis

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There is no need to fear for me.
The idea that Christians can live a sinless perfect life here on earth is false and the bible no where supports it.
first ,aa asked so often ,when you say we cant live sinless ,what sin are you talking about that you cant stop doing ?

second, could you find me the one verse that says .."it is ok to continue in your sin which you know is sinful ,just keep doing it thats fine " I cant find that verse.
 
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Alithis

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@NBB and @Alithis

Check out the New Testament verses on trespasses. I added them to my document.

1 Chronicles 10:13
So Saul died for his trespass which he committed against the Lord, because of the word of the Lord which he did not keep; and also because he asked counsel of a medium, making inquiry of it,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2 Corinthians 5:19
namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Galatians 6:1
[ Bear One Another’s Burdens ] Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Ephesians 1:7
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Ephesians 2:1
[ Made Alive in Christ ] And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
i like the one that says if any be caught in tresspass, i know there are two fold meanings but i like the meaning of being caught up in it (as opposed to caught out) caught up like ensnared ,got yourself into a tricky situation with a bad financial decision maybe which led to more tricky situations and now its all sort of a mess and the person is caught up in tresspasses. -it says restore them gently (lovingly) restore peace with God ,restore restore restore, NOT TELL THEM ITS OK WE ALL SIN. it is NEVER ok to continue in the practice of sin once we know it is sin .

real life: we visited a small group of christians 3 weeks ago and while fellowshipping with them i was discussing with her and it became apparant that while she loved the lord she was tangeld up in many trespasses which had also become sin.So we shared the Gospel with her (the whole Gospel ,not the sinners prayer) we always go back to the Gospel ,it is essential to relay the foundations of a persons faith in the rock .then we set about to "restore her" .we led her in repentance .then lay hands on her to pray for her. she began to tremble then her tongue started flicking out and we cast that devil out in Jesus name.
she suddenly tried to get away but shook all over fell to the floor and it came out.
(violent shaking is much more an evidence of devils then evidence of blessing -another thread topic lol) then she was Free, later that day She got baptised in water because though she had been wet before she had never repented (the command is to repent and be baptised not hust be baptised) Now she is "Restored " .She also began to speak freely in other tongues ,it was very beautiful.
just a testimony, its not one size fits all except that ALL healing All deliverence all forgivness all restoration begins in the Gospel. there is none of it in completion if the Gospel is excluded.- we have learned that in much experience.
 
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1stcenturylady

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i like the one that says if any be caught in tresspass, i know there are two fold meanings but i like the meaning of being caught up in it (as opposed to caught out) caught up like ensnared ,got yourself into a tricky situation with a bad financial decision maybe which led to more tricky situations and now its all sort of a mess and the person is caught up in tresspasses. -it says restore them gently (lovingly) restore peace with God ,restore restore restore, NOT TELL THEM ITS OK WE ALL SIN. it is NEVER ok to continue in the practice of sin once we know it is sin .

Exactly!

real life: we visited a small group of christians 3 weeks ago and while fellowshipping with them i was discussing with her and it became apparant that while she loved the lord she was tangeld up in many trespasses which had also become sin.So we shared the Gospel with her (the whole Gospel ,not the sinners prayer) we always go back to the Gospel ,it is essential to relay the foundations of a persons faith in the rock .then we set about to "restore her" .we led her in repentance .then lay hands on her to pray for her. she began to tremble then her tongue started flicking out and we cast that devil out in Jesus name.
she suddenly tried to get away but shook all over fell to the floor and it came out.
(violent shaking is much more an evidence of devils then evidence of blessing -another thread topic lol) then she was Free, later that day She got baptised in water because though she had been wet before she had never repented (the command is to repent and be baptised not hust be baptised) Now she is "Restored " .She also began to speak freely in other tongues ,it was very beautiful.
just a testimony, its not one size fits all except that ALL healing All deliverence all forgivness all restoration begins in the Gospel. there is none of it in completion if the Gospel is excluded.- we have learned that in much experience.

Wow, what an experience. There are many who know all about Jesus, even to the point of calling themselves Christian, as we've discussed before. But she wasn't saved. She had never repented (yet). Praise God you didn't run away when the demon manifested! She is not only delivered, but now saved and filled with the Holy Spirit, not some nasty demon! Now 7 more demons can't come in. Her "house" is filled, not empty.
 
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Thank you, so what does this mean? IMO, this means what is being preached in many churches are false teachings.

The problem is seeing is concerning the fact which means, the numbers of genuine Christians are few and getting fewer still.
To say that having faith in God means that one becomes materially prosperous is actually taken a humanistic, existentialist unfounded leap of faith into the fog without know for sure what is there at the end of it. The New Testament does not provide a link between Christian faith and any increase in wealth. This does not mean, however, that having wealth is sinful. It is not money that is the root of all evil, but the love of it. If someone is adopting Christian faith in order to get more wealth, then he is acting out of a love for money and not for the love of God. This is why the prosperity doctrine is false. It substitutes a humanistic faith in faith instead of true Christian faith that puts one into the hands of God, having the confidence that God will supply all his needs according to His riches in glory.
 
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The problem is that some sinners call themselves Christians.

Once your sins have been taken away by the power of Christ, you are a Christian, not a sinner.
It is important to read the passage in Joshua where the altar was put at the foot of Mt Ebal and not on Mt Gerizim, which was the mount of blessing. Mt Ebal was the opposite and the altar was placed there to remind the people that they were not perfect. The Law was inscribed on the stones, so that the people would be reminded that this was the Law of God, and that it is a Law that they would not be able to keep. This is why there was an altar of sacrifice there, because it was not through keeping the Law that salvation came but through the offering of sacrifices on the altar.

The problem with the Samaritans later on was they they built an altar on Mt Gerizim, which is the mount of blessing. It is a figure of people trying to be justified by keeping the Law. But the altar on Mt Ebal signified what John said later on - that if any person says they don't have sin, they lie and have no knowledge of the truth.

We need also to distinguish between sin and weakness. A Christian sins when he or she rebels against God in some way, but even then, there is forgiveness and cleansing upon confession of the sin. The altar on Mt Ebal points towards the sacrifice of Jesus for our sin. The sacrifice on the altar was for temporary cleansing of sin, but the sacrifice of Jesus made the cleansing permanent.
 
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1stcenturylady

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The sacrifice on the altar was for temporary cleansing of sin, but the sacrifice of Jesus made the cleansing permanent.

Right! Most people in the Church still see themselves as dirty because of verses like 1 John 1:8 about all of us before Christ. They misapply it to themselves, like some badge of shame. Everyone since Adam's sin inherited the sin nature, even those under the LAW. Keeping the law in our weak flesh doesn't make us clean. It is a constant struggle as Romans 7:14-23 tells those who are still under the law.

So how do we get clean permanently? The very next verse! 1 John 1:9 "But if we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin, and to CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. No more dirt. Why? No more SIN NATURE! We are new creatures in Christ. Taking verse 8 out of context of verse 9 has caused such confusion in the Church. They understand Christ's blood to do no more than the blood of bulls and goats - just cover sin, while leaving our sin nature. NO! Christ's blood takes away not only our sin, but the sin nature which previously kept pumping out sin! CONTEXT! CONTEXT! CONTEXT! With the sin nature dead, we are no longer sinners, but SAINTS.

God's seed in us then cannot sin, which makes us free. 1 John 3:9. And what type of sin is John talking about? "LAWLESSNESS" 1 John 3:4. Lawlessness is willful, presumptuous sin. We now have no desire to sin on purpose.

So why do we still make mistakes, missing the direct hit bull' eye? TRANSGRESSIONS. Leviticus 5:15 tells us these are unintentional. And the Lord's prayers tells us, if we forgive others their transgressions against us, so will He forgive us our transgressions. This is also how even while walking in the light the blood of Jesus is still cleansing us of these transgressions 1 John 1:7. Walking in the light is how we also reconcile with one another - we forgive each others transgressions against us. If we don't forgive others their transgressions, the bitterness plunges us into darkness. Matthew 6:15.
 
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Right! Most people in the Church still see themselves as dirty because of verses like 1 John 1:8 about all of us before Christ. They misapply it to themselves, like some badge of shame. Everyone since Adam's sin inherited the sin nature, even those under the LAW. Keeping the law in our weak flesh doesn't make us clean. It is a constant struggle as Romans 7:14-23 tells those who are still under the law.

So how do we get clean permanently? The very next verse! 1 John 1:9 "But if we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin, and to CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. No more dirt. Why? No more SIN NATURE! We are new creatures in Christ. Taking verse 8 out of context of verse 9 has caused such confusion in the Church. They understand Christ's blood to do no more than the blood of bulls and goats - just cover sin, while leaving our sin nature. NO! Christ's blood takes away not only our sin, but the sin nature which previously kept pumping out sin! CONTEXT! CONTEXT! CONTEXT! With the sin nature dead, we are no longer sinners, but SAINTS.

God's seed in us then cannot sin, which makes us free. 1 John 3:9. And what type of sin is John talking about? "LAWLESSNESS" 1 John 3:4. Lawlessness is willful, presumptuous sin. We now have no desire to sin on purpose.

So why do we still make mistakes, missing the direct hit bull' eye? TRANSGRESSIONS. Leviticus 5:15 tells us these are unintentional. And the Lord's prayers tells us, if we forgive others their transgressions against us, so will He forgive us our transgressions. This is also how even while walking in the light the blood of Jesus is still cleansing us of these transgressions 1 John 1:7. Walking in the light is how we also reconcile with one another - we forgive each others transgressions against us. If we don't forgive others their transgressions, the bitterness plunges us into darkness. Matthew 6:15.
If you read in the book of Joshua, when the Israelites conquered the hill country, they found themselves between two mountains - Mt Gerizim and Mt Ebal. They were instructed to put the blessing on Mt Gerizim and the curse on Mt Ebal. But when they built the altar of sacrifice, they put it at the base of Mt Ebal, and the Law was written on stones by the altar to remind people of the Law with its blessings and curses. It was at the base of Mt Ebal because the people needed to be reminded that although they had the Law they wouldn't be able to keep it so they would need to make sacrifice for sin in order to keep themselves clean. The reason why the altar was not put at the foot of Mt Gerizim, the mount of blessing was that Mt Gerizim stood for the blessing of being able to keep the Law which implied that man has the ability in himself to be perfectly holy. The Lord instructed the altar to be place at the foot of Mt Ebal because He knew that man could not be perfectly holy in themselves, and that sacrifice for sin was required in order to make the people acceptable to Him.

In the same way, we have the Law placed in front of us to remind us of what perfect holiness should be, but God knew that we would not be able to be perfectly holy in ourselves, so this is why Jesus became our perfect sacrifice. Humanism says that man can find all the answers within himself, but Godly faith says that Jesus is the answer for us and through Him, his death and resurrection, we can be made perfectly righteous before God, even though we still fall short of perfect holiness through the weakness of our flesh.

This is why there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ. We know that we are totally forgiven and cleansed through Christ, but we cannot think we can live any way we like because of it. We need to show the fruit of our faith in Christ. Jesus said that blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness for they shall be filled. We know that we could never be perfectly holy in this life, but we can reach out to the Lord and depend on the Holy Spirit to lead in the paths of righteousness and to be our advocate in heaven when we do slip and fall through our weaknesses and shortcomings.
 
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This is why there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ. We know that we are totally forgiven and cleansed through Christ, but we cannot think we can live any way we like because of it. We need to show the fruit of our faith in Christ. Jesus said that blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness for they shall be filled. We know that we could never be perfectly holy in this life, but we can reach out to the Lord and depend on the Holy Spirit to lead in the paths of righteousness and to be our advocate in heaven when we do slip and fall through our weaknesses and shortcomings.

Friend, I think that other denomination is rubbing off on you...;)

First sentence. You left off the rest of the verse - the condition; and by doing so, have created a new doctrine. Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Another sentence I don't happen to agree with is "We know that we could never be perfectly holy in this life," and with that attitude we never will. Not only are we dead to sin (a fact), we need to also reckon ourselves dead to sin. There is life and death in the power of tongue, and if we keep lying to ourselves that we are still sinners, we fail before we begin and quench the Spirit.


I know you know the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives - or have you forgotten...?
 
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Alithis

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First sentence. You left off the rest of the verse - the condition; and by doing so, have created a new doctrine. Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Another sentence I don't happen to agree with is "We know that we could never be perfectly holy in this life," and with that attitude we never will. Not only are we dead to sin (a fact), we need to also reckon ourselves dead to sin. There is life and death in the power of tongue, and if we keep lying to ourselves that we are still sinners, we fail before we begin and quench the Spirit.
have to agree there @Oscar .but perhaps it is that perception of what holiness is.:)
 
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1stcenturylady

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have to agree there @Oscar .but perhaps it is that perception of what holiness is.:)

Just to be clear? Who are you agreeing with? My friend, Oscar; or me? :)
 
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lol im agreeing with you. But Oscar is a fellow new zealander and we cross friendly paths from time to time :D

I just love Oscar.

I didn't know you lived in NZ. My mother was Australian from Toowoomba, Q'ld.

I remember driving from Wellington to Auckland, and all around NZ. My favorite was the Glow Worm caves. Awe-inspiring.
 
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