Daniel's 4 Beasts

[5thKingdom]

Before the (5th) Eternal Kingdom of God... there are four (4) earthly Kingdoms of Heaven.

Daniel 7 provides information about four Beasts/Kingdoms that arise on earth -and the 5th Kingdom, established when the Lord Returns. Most Biblical Scholars view Daniel's Four Kingdoms as representing the historical progression of the Kingdoms of Man: Babylonian Empire (Lion), Media-Persian Empire (Bear), Greek Empire (Leopard) and the Roman Empire (4th Beast). However, Daniel 7:11-12 does not allow that idea.


While Daniel's 4 Beasts have an application to the physical/political kingdoms throughout history, the deeper spiritual teaching relates to the progression of four (4) spiritual Kingdoms of Heaven on earth, followed by the (5th) Eternal Kingdom of Heaven.


Daniel's first Beast represents the (1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom of Heaven, which includes (the souls of) all the "wheat" and "tares" on earth from Creation of Adam until Noah's Ark. Daniel's second Beast represents the (2nd) Old Testament / Jewish Kingdom. Daniel's third Beast represents the (3rd) New Testament / Christian Kingdom of Heaven and Daniel's Fourth Kingdom represents the "Ten Virgins" who departed from the spiritual "dominion" of their churches - and "went forth" (following the False Prophet), establishing Daniel's (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom.... aka, the Revelations Beast.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[Job8]

Daniel's first Beast represents the (1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom of Heaven, which includes (the souls of) all the "wheat" and "tares" on earth from Creation of Adam until Noah's Ark. Daniel's second Beast represents the (2nd) Old Testament / Jewish Kingdom. Daniel's third Beast represents the (3rd) New Testament / Christian Kingdom of Heaven and Daniel's Fourth Kingdom represents the "Ten Virgins" who departed from the spiritual "dominion" of their churches - and "went forth" (following the False Prophet), establishing Daniel's (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom.... aka, the Revelations Beast.

This is really allegorizing Scripture amd can lead to utter confusion. Those "kingdoms" in Daniel were in fact Gentile empires denoting "the times of the Gentiles". They cannot rightly be used to illustrial the Kingdom of God, which is represented as a huge stone which smashes these kingdoms to pieces.

 

[Douggg]

Before the (5th) Eternal Kingdom of God... there are four (4) earthly Kingdoms of Heaven.

Daniel 7 provides information about four Beasts/Kingdoms that arise on earth -and the 5th Kingdom, established when the Lord Returns. Most Biblical Scholars view Daniel's Four Kingdoms as representing the historical progression of the Kingdoms of Man: Babylonian Empire (Lion), Media-Persian Empire (Bear), Greek Empire (Leopard) and the Roman Empire (4th Beast). However, Daniel 7:11-12 does not allow that idea.


While Daniel's 4 Beasts have an application to the physical/political kingdoms throughout history, the deeper spiritual teaching relates to the progression of four (4) spiritual Kingdoms of Heaven on earth, followed by the (5th) Eternal Kingdom of Heaven.

The Eternal Kingdom of God is not represented by any beast. It is only the kingdoms of man that are represented by the beasts. The traditionalists have it right.

 

[gospelfer]

Daniel 2, 7, and 10-12 all described the same period of time, as seen through different lenses. Danial describes 5 successive powers (or kingdoms), followed by the kingdom of God. The Daniel 7 vision appears to have only 4 earthly powers because Daniel is temporally standing in an already-risen Babylon, and the powers he is describing are future ones (from his standpoint). The Daniel 2 vision contains 5 because it includes Babylon (the head). There are a number other points of coherence strongly suggesting this is the correct interpretation.

 

[5thKingdom]

There is more than one vision in Daniel 7. Daniel told us the sum
of the visions. In the first vision time is when he saw four great beasts,
then that vision ended and he saw four smaller beasts. The smaller beasts
represented the kingdoms.

No... there are different visions in Chapter 7 but they are all about
the same 4 Kingdoms. If you have some verses in mind please
cite them

 

[5thKingdom]

This is really allegorizing Scripture amd can lead to utter confusion. Those "kingdoms" in Daniel were in fact Gentile empires denoting "the times of the Gentiles". They cannot rightly be used to illustrial the Kingdom of God, which is represented as a huge stone which smashes these kingdoms to pieces.

The fact is that each Beast represents Kingdoms of people
and verses 7:11-12 prevents the idea they are political kingdoms.
The Truth is, this understanding harmonizes with all Scripture.
---------
The Kingdom of God that smashes all previous kingdoms
also harmonizes.
---------
The "times of the Gentiles" is not relevant.... however,
the "season and times" after the destruction of the 4th Kingdom
is very relevant.

 

[5thKingdom]

The Eternal Kingdom of God is not represented by any beast. It is only the kingdoms of man that are represented by the beasts. The traditionalists have it right.

No, the traditionalists (which I used to be) do NOT have it right
because they cannot harmonize the idea of physical/political kingdoms.
However, if you think that is incorrect, then please explain v 7:11-12.


BTW... Daniel 12:8:10 guarantees that the traditionalist could not have
understood Daniel's Beasts because that understanding was "sealed"
from all Saints until the "time-of-the-end"... which is the period AFTER
Daniel's 4th Beast. It's also the period AFTER the 2nd Woe is past but
BEFORE the 3rd Woe begins.


The fact is that these Kingdoms are spiritual kingdoms.
Saints have known for a long time that Daniel's 4th Beast was
also the Revelations Beast. Or said another way, the people in
Daniel's 4th Beast are the SAME PEOPLE as those in the Revelations
Beast.... so Daniel's 4th Beast is the Great Tribulation Kingdom.

 

[5thKingdom]

Daniel 2, 7, and 10-12 all described the same period of time, as seen through different lenses. Danial describes 5 successive powers (or kingdoms), followed by the kingdom of God. The Daniel 7 vision appears to have only 4 earthly powers because Daniel is temporally standing in an already-risen Babylon, and the powers he is describing are future ones (from his standpoint). The Daniel 2 vision contains 5 because it includes Babylon (the head). There are a number other points of coherence strongly suggesting this is the correct interpretation.

You are correct that Daniel' 2, 7, (and 8) all describe the same Kingdoms
(the same people) from different perspectives.

But the rest of what you said is wrong.
If you consider ANY Scripture from the CONTEXT of Daniel's 4 Kingdoms
you will find that it harmonizes with everything in the Bible.... again,
1st Pre-Flood Kingdom, 2nd Old Testament Kingdom, 3rd New Testament
and 4th Great Tribulation Kingdom.

Give me ANY Eschatological passage and I will demonstrate the harmony.

 

[Douggg]

No, the traditionalists (which I used to be) do NOT have it right
because they cannot harmonize the idea of physical/political kingdoms.
However, if you think that is incorrect, then please explain v 7:11-12.

I don't know what the big mystery is. The kingdom of the beast the end times Roman Empire in Revelation 13 will be destroyed at Jesus's return, but the other nations will be allowed to continue, albeit ruled with a rod of iron, for the 1000 years.

BTW... Daniel 12:8:10 guarantees that the traditionalist could not have
understood Daniel's Beasts because that understanding was "sealed"
from all Saints until the "time-of-the-end"... which is the period AFTER
Daniel's 4th Beast. It's also the period AFTER the 2nd Woe is past but
BEFORE the 3rd Woe begins.

We are in the time the end, and traditionalists exist right now.

The fact is that these Kingdoms are spiritual kingdoms.
Saints have known for a long time that Daniel's 4th Beast was
also the Revelations Beast. Or said another way, the people in
Daniel's 4th Beast are the SAME PEOPLE as those in the Revelations
Beast.... so Daniel's 4th Beast is the Great Tribulation Kingdom.

No, they are not spiritual kingdoms. I agree that the Daniel 7, 4th beast, i.e fourth world empire, the end times version of it, is the kingdom in Revelation 13.

 

[5thKingdom]

Douggg said:
I don't know what the big mystery is. The kingdom of the beast the end times Roman Empire in Revelation 13 will be destroyed at Jesus's return, but the other nations will be allowed to continue, albeit ruled with a rod of iron, for the 1000 years.

--------------------

Douggg,
I know that you think you know something about Daniel's Beasts
but you do not. It is not possible for Daniel's 4th Kingdom to be
the Roman empire. As I said before (and you ignored) Dan 7:11-12
prevents that idea... unless you want to argue that the Roman Empire
was destroyed BEFORE the Greek empire and the Persian Empire and
the Babylonian Empire. Read Daniel 7:11-12 because it REQUIRES the
4th Kingdom be destroyed BEFORE the previous beasts.

Dan 7:11-12 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.


---------

Douggg says:

We are in the time the end, and traditionalists exist right now.

----------

Douggg, maybe you could be more specific....
are we at "the end" of the (3rd) New Testament Kingdom or
are we at "the end" of the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom or
are we at "the end" of the Season and Time AFTER the destruction
of Daniel's 4th Kingdom?

Obviously, you need to identify WHERE you think we are because,
in order to harmonize with ALL SCRIPTURE we have to understand
the "time-of-the-end" (Dan 12:8-10) is also called the Season and Time
in Daniel 7... this period is also shown as the time AFTER the 2nd Woe
is past, but before the 3rd Woe sounds (Rev 11:14).

Bottom Line.... God PROMISED that Daniel's prophecies would remain
"sealed" until the "time-of-the-end" and that means it is AFTER the
destruction of Daniel's 4th Beast... again, during the Season and Time.

In other words, it is God that PROMISED that all interpretations BEFORE
the "time-of-the-end" would be incorrect interpretations... and history
has confirmed that. Harmony of Scripture and History, how cool is that?

 

[Douggg]

Douggg said:
I don't know what the big mystery is. The kingdom of the beast the end times Roman Empire in Revelation 13 will be destroyed at Jesus's return, but the other nations will be allowed to continue, albeit ruled with a rod of iron, for the 1000 years.

--------------------

Douggg,
I know that you think you know something about Daniel's Beasts
but you do not. It is not possible for Daniel's 4th Kingdom to be
the Roman empire. As I said before (and you ignored) Dan 7:11-12
prevents that idea... unless you want to argue that the Roman Empire
was destroyed BEFORE the Greek empire and the Persian Empire and
the Babylonian Empire. Read Daniel 7:11-12 because it REQUIRES the
4th Kingdom be destroyed BEFORE the previous beasts.

The Greek Empire, the Babylonian Empire, the Medes/Persian Empire were followed by the Roman Empire. Daniel 7:11-12 is saying that the other three empires as empires (because their dominion as empires was taken away long ago) will not partake in the millenium period. But the nations once associated with those former empires will continue into the millenium period

12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Daniel 2 and Daniel 7, the four empires correspond with each other.

Douggg, maybe you could be more specific....
are we at "the end" of the (3rd) New Testament Kingdom or
are we at "the end" of the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom or
are we at "the end" of the Season and Time AFTER the destruction
of Daniel's 4th Kingdom?

We are at the time of the end when transportation and knowledge are increased.

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Obviously, you need to identify WHERE you think we are because,
in order to harmonize with ALL SCRIPTURE we have to understand
the "time-of-the-end" (Dan 12:8-10) is also called the Season and Time
in Daniel 7... this period is also shown as the time AFTER the 2nd Woe
is past, but before the 3rd Woe sounds (Rev 11:14).

Well, I will tell you where we are. We are right on the verge of the ten king (leader) final form of the EU government forming.

Bottom Line.... God PROMISED that Daniel's prophecies would remain
"sealed" until the "time-of-the-end" and that means it is AFTER the
destruction of Daniel's 4th Beast... again, during the Season and Time.

No, it doesn't. The time of the end is identified in Daniel 12:
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

In other words, it is God that PROMISED that all interpretations BEFORE
the "time-of-the-end" would be incorrect interpretations... and history
has confirmed that. Harmony of Scripture and History, how cool is that?

Here's the verse again.

Daniel 12:
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

 

[Bible2]

5thKingdom said in post 1:

Most Biblical Scholars view Daniel's Four Kingdoms as representing the historical progression of the Kingdoms of Man: Babylonian Empire (Lion), Media-Persian Empire (Bear), Greek Empire (Leopard) and the Roman Empire (4th Beast). However, Daniel 7:11-12 does not allow that idea.

Note that nothing in Daniel 7:11-12 contradicts that in Daniel 7, the first 3 beasts (Daniel 7:3-6) represent the ancient empires of Babylon (lion), Medo-Persia (bear), and Greece (leopard). And the 4th beast, or 4th "king"/"kingdom" (Daniel 7:17,23), represents the ancient Roman empire. The 10 horns/kings which come out of it (Daniel 7:7,24) could represent 10 major kingdoms/nations today which came out the former territory of the Roman empire, which consisted not only of Western Europe, but also the Middle East and North Africa. These 10 nations could be Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria, and Syria. The 10 part-iron/part-clay toes of Daniel 2:42 could represent the same thing as the 10 horns of Daniel 7:7. The Europeans could be the iron, and the Arabs and Turks could be the clay. In Daniel 2:43, the inability of the iron to mix with the clay could represent how, for example, there are many Turks living in Germany, but they remain separated in ghettoes within German cities. Similarly, there are many Arab Algerians living in France, but they remain separated in ghettoes within French cities.

But despite this social separation, which could endure indefinitely, the people of Western Europe on the one hand and the people of the Middle East and North Africa on the other could still one day put aside their political separation and become united into one federation. For Daniel 2:42 refers to the 10 as a singular "kingdom". The person who brings this about could be the Antichrist. The arising of the "little" horn (Daniel 7:8, Daniel 8:9), which is "diverse" from the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24), could mean that the Antichrist will arise from a little country.

And the little horn arising from "among" the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:8) could mean that the Antichrist's country's territory used to be part of the Roman empire. And before that, it was part of one of the 4 Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded the Greek empire of Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). The territory of these 4 kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from the little country of Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

The Antichrist could start out by claiming to be a Baathist. After becoming the leader of Lebanon, he could peacefully gain control of a Baathist federation of 3 of the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24): Egypt, "toward the south" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9), and Iraq and Syria, "toward the east" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9). This federation could also include the minor nation of a United Palestine, i.e. a defeated Israel, "the pleasant land" (Daniel 8:9).

This Baathist federation could be put together in the future by an Iraqi Baathist General who could completely defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), but who could then mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:19) shortly before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45). Years later, when the Antichrist gains control of all 10 of the major nations, he could appoint kings over them (Revelation 17:12) who will defer to him (Revelation 17:13), like when Napoleon gained control of different nations, he appointed kings over them who would defer to him.

5thKingdom said in post 1:

Daniel 7:11-12 does not allow that idea.

Daniel 7:11b could refer to the Antichrist, the individual-man aspect of the beast, being cast into the lake of fire at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:20). In Daniel 7, the Antichrist is considered to be part of the 4th beast (Daniel 7:23-25).

Daniel 7:12 can refer to how even after their empires were taken way, Babylon continued as a thriving city for centuries (and has even been rebuilt in our time), Medo-Persia continues as Iraq and Iran, Greece continues as a nation, and Rome continues as Italy.

--

5thKingdom said in post 11:

Read Daniel 7:11-12 because it REQUIRES the
4th Kingdom be destroyed BEFORE the previous beasts.

Actually, it doesn't, if by destroyed you mean the taking away of their empires.

 

[Bible2]

5thKingdom said in post 11:

Bottom Line.... God PROMISED that Daniel's prophecies would remain
"sealed" until the "time-of-the-end" . . .

Note that the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 is referred to in Revelation 12:14. And Revelation is an unsealed book (Revelation 22:10). So the meaning of the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 was unsealed by the time that Revelation was written in the 1st century AD. Therefore, "the time of the end" in Daniel 12:4,9 must be "the end" in the same sense as in Hebrews 9:26 (see also 1 Corinthians 10:11b), which shows that (in one sense) "the end" of the world had already begun at the time of Jesus' first coming and his crucifixion for our sins.

So Daniel 12:4b can be referring to many Christians, at anytime after Jesus' first coming and the writing of Revelation, going to and fro, going back and forth, between the still-unfulfilled parts of Revelation and Daniel, and these Christians increasing their knowledge of what is going to happen in our future by seeing how much these 2 books complement each other (cf. Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13).

Also, Daniel 12:6,8 doesn't (as is sometimes claimed) contradict that the time of the end in Daniel 12:4,9 can begin before the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 and all the other "wonders" and "things" referred to in Daniel 12:6,8 have ended. For the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 refers only to the specific time period of 3.5 literal years which would later be shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13), the detailed events of which have never been fulfilled. And Daniel 12:6 refers to the specific "wonders" which Daniel had just been told about in Daniel 11:2 to 12:3, which also include detailed events which haven't been fulfilled (Daniel 11:31 to 12:3), including the church's physical resurrection into immortality (Daniel 12:2-3) at the time of the Antichrist's defeat (Daniel 11:45 to 12:3, Revelation 19:20 to 20:6), while Daniel 12:4,9 refers to a more general "time of the end" which began in the 1st century AD (Hebrews 9:26; 1 Corinthians 10:11b).

 

[tranquil]

No, the traditionalists (which I used to be) do NOT have it right
because they cannot harmonize the idea of physical/political kingdoms.
However, if you think that is incorrect, then please explain v 7:11-12.


BTW... Daniel 12:8:10 guarantees that the traditionalist could not have
understood Daniel's Beasts because that understanding was "sealed"
from all Saints until the "time-of-the-end"... which is the period AFTER
Daniel's 4th Beast. It's also the period AFTER the 2nd Woe is past but
BEFORE the 3rd Woe begins.


The fact is that these Kingdoms are spiritual kingdoms.
Saints have known for a long time that Daniel's 4th Beast was
also the Revelations Beast. Or said another way, the people in
Daniel's 4th Beast are the SAME PEOPLE as those in the Revelations
Beast.... so Daniel's 4th Beast is the Great Tribulation Kingdom.

I don't necessarily disagree with the "4 spiritual kingdoms" idea. I think it's pretty interesting... is this your idea?

But, I don't like that you would have people sweep its physical meaning under the rug.

Also,
The 3rd woe is the 4th beast kingdom.

Rev 12

12Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”

13And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.

http://biblehub.com/revelation/12-14.htm
14But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. 15The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood. 16But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth. 17Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stoodb on the sand of the sea.
​

When the 4th beast is killed, the remnant of the beast kingdoms (there's 7 kingdoms in the beast from the sea) live on for 70 weeks more (a season and a time), then the New Jerusalem comes down.

 

[Interplanner]

You do realize that the New Jerusalem never comes down to this earth don't you? Find it. It is part of the new creation. Another reason not to expect anything on this earth, per 2 Pet 3, where there is nothing Judaic that is re-instituted or re-installed on this earth.

 

[5thKingdom]

The Greek Empire, the Babylonian Empire, the Medes/Persian Empire were followed by the Roman Empire. Daniel 7:11-12 is saying that the other three empires as empires (because their dominion as empires was taken away long ago) will not partake in the millenium period. But the nations once associated with those former empires will continue into the millenium period

12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

-------------
Douggg... that does not harmonize.
Read the passage again, the 4th Beast was destroyed BEFORE the previous
Kingdoms and that did NOT happen in history. Besides, the 4th Beast is
thrown into the Burning Flame (the Lake-of-Fire, Rev 19:20) and THEN
the other Kingdoms exist for a "Season and Time"... your eschatology
does not (I suspect) provide for a "Season and Time" on earth AFTER
the destruction of the 4th Beast.

Listen, this is not that difficult to understand:
Let's look at if this way... WHAT is the last period on earth BEFORE
the (5th) Eternal Kingdom? And the answer is the (4th) Great Tribulation,
which is shown as Daniel's 4th Beast and as the Revelations Beast.

Next... what Kingdom precedes the Great Tribulation?
And the answer is: the (3rd) New Testament Kingdom...
and before that the (2nd) Old Testament Kingdom...
and before that the (1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom.

Because of the Fall of Man, all men are born into the Kingdom of Babylon
(Satan's Kingdom). When we are regenerated (born again) our souls
(but not our bodies) are translated from the Kingdom of Babylon into the
Kingdom of Heaven. Daniel's 4 Beasts represents all of the "wheat" living
in the time period in view, plus the "tares" that are planted in that Kingdom
by Satan.

At the end of the (1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom, all the Saints were "harvested"
(on the Ark) into the (2nd) Old Testament Kingdom. At the end of the
Jewish Kingdom all the Saints were "harvested" into the (3rd) New Testament
Kingdom. At the end of the New Testament Kingdom, and the beginning
of the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom, all Saints are "harvested" out
of the 3rd Kingdom and into the 4th Kingdom.... this harvest is shown
as the "Ten Virgins" that "went forth" from the 3rd Beast.

These "10 Virgins" are also shown as the "10 Horns" on Daniel's 4th Beast
and they represent the completed Kingdom of Heaven (Body of Christ). These
10 Virgins are also shown and the 10 Horns on the Revelations Beast. And
they are shown as "10 Toes" of iron/clay (wise virgins/foolish virgins).
They are also called "10 Kings".

In any case.... Daniel 7:11-12 REQUIRES that the 4th Beast be destroyed
BEFORE the other Beasts and that does not identify with the Roman Empire
PLUS the passage REQUIRES that the previous Beasts remain on earth
AFTER the 4th Beast is cast into the Lake-of-Fire.... this "Season and Time"
on earth AFTER destruction of the 4th Beast disproves ANY THEORY of these
Beasts being some PHYSICAL/POLITICAL Kingdoms of man. Instead, they
represent the Four successive Kingdoms of Heaven on earth... which are
replaced by the (5th) Eternal Kingdom of God.


--------


Douggg says:

We are at the time of the end when transportation and knowledge are increased.


Jim says:
I understand that is a common belief but it is wrong because it does not
harmonize with the rest of the Bible. We cannot view this verse alone and
the question is a matter of context. We know that the "time-of-the-end"
cannot be "the end" of the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom. However, it cannot be
"the end" of the (3rd) Christian Kingdom either... because there remains
another 4th Beast PLUS a "Season and Time" on earth AFTER "the end"
of the 3rd Kingdom. In fact, the "time-of-the-end" can ONLY be "the end"
of the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom -or- the period on earth AFTER
the 4th Beast is destroyed... the "Season and Time".

Therefore, we can know that the "time-of-the-end" represents either "the end"
of the 4th Beast or the "Season and Time" on earth AFTER the 4th Beast.

BTW, the "Season and Time" AFTER the destruction of the 4th Beast is also shown
as the period AFTER the 2nd Woe is past - but BEFORE the 3rd Woe begins (Rev 11:14)
and it is shown as the period AFTER the False Prophet and the 4th Beast are
"cast alive" into the Lake-of-Fire in Rev 19:20 (Burning Flame in Dan 7)
but BEFORE Satan and "his land" JOIN THEM in the Lake (Rev 20:10).

BTW... the "Mystery Babylon" is a New Testament commentary on Daniels 4 Beasts
and I have posted the solution to that passage on another thread about Rev 17.





-----------

 

[5thKingdom]

Note that nothing in Daniel 7:11-12 contradicts that in Daniel 7, the first 3 beasts (Daniel 7:3-6) represent the ancient empires of Babylon (lion), Medo-Persia (bear), and Greece (leopard). And the 4th beast, or 4th "king"/"kingdom" (Daniel 7:17,23), represents the ancient Roman empire.

--------

Wrong sir. Notice the 4th Beast is destroyed BEFORE the others....
Rome was not destroyed BEFORE Babylon, Rome was not destroyed
BEFORE Persia and Rome was not destroyed BEFORE Greece...
more than that: the passage REQUIRES there is a "Season and Time"
on earth AFTER destruction of the 4th Beast (also the Revelations Beast)
in the "Burning Flame" (also shown as the "Lake-of-Fire" in Rev 19)


There is NO WAY to harmonize physical/political kingdoms with
ALL SCRIPTURES and, in fact, the Bible PROMISES that all theories
about Daniel's prophecies would be WRONG... until the "time-of-the-end",
and that MUST be either "the end" of Daniel's 4th Beast (Revelations Beast)
or the "Season and Time" after destruction of the 4th Beast.

I understand that previous Saints have thought Daniel's Kingdoms
represented physical/political Kingdoms.... however, that is not possible
because it does not harmonize with ALL SCRIPTURE and is proven wrong
by History (reality). Moreover, that cannot be True because God PROMISED
the Truth of Daniel's Beasts would NOT be known during the 3rd Kingdom.

-----------

Bible 2 says:
For Daniel 2:42 refers to the 10 as a singular "kingdom"....


Correct.... the "10 horns" represent the COMPLETION of the Kingdoms.
These 10 Horns of the 4th Beast (also the Revelations Beast) represent
the "10 Virgins" that "went forth" from the 3rd Beast into the 4th Beast.
They are also shown as "10 Toes" of iron/clay (wise virgins/foolish virgins)
that come AFTER the Legs of Iron (New Testament Kingdom). And, as
you indicated the False Prophet ("Little Horn") arises FROM Daniel's
4th Beast - after the "testimony of the Two Witnesses" is finished and
the Body of Christ is complete.

---------------

Daniel's Beasts represent the progression of the Kingdom of Heaven
from Creation until the (5th) Eternal Kingdom of God. Daniel's 1st Beast
represent all the Saints living in the Pre-Flood Kingdom. Daniel's 2nd Beast
represents the Jewish Kingdom and the 3rd Beast represents the Christian
Kingdom. Daniel's 4th Beast (and the Revelations Beast) represents the
Great Tribulation Kingdom which consists exclusively of the "10 Virgins"
(also shown as 10 Horns, 10 Kings and 10 Toes) that "went forth" from the 3rd Kingdom - into the 4th Kingdom.

 

[5thKingdom]

Note that the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 is referred to in Revelation 12:14. And Revelation is an unsealed book (Revelation 22:10).


--------------

The 3.5 "times" is also shown as 3.5 "days" and it represents the
Great Tribulation period (Daniel's 4th Beast) from the time that the
10 Virgins "went forth" into the Kingdom until the Final Harvest.

The Great Tribulation Kingdom (Daniel's 4th Beast and the Revelations Beast)
are shown from MANY different perspectives and each perspective shows
a different aspect of the 4th Beast. In order to understand the Biblical Truth
we must be able to harmonize ALL SCRIPTURES related to Daniel's 4th Beast.

From the perspective of a SINGLE KINGDOM the Great Tribulation is shown
as (1) Daniel's 4th Beast and (2) the 7-Headed Revelations Beast and
(3) Satan's Little Season and (4) the reign of the Little Horn and
(5) the Ten Virgins and (6) the Ten Kings and (7) the Ten Horns and
(8) the Ten Toes of iron and clay.

From the perspective of a DUAL KINGDOM the Great Tribulation is shown
as (9) Two separate and distinct Trumpet Judgments and (10) two separate
and distinct Woes and (11) Two separate Beasts, the first Beast and then
the "image" of the First Beast and (12) Locusts that "torment" those within
the 4th Beast for a period of "5 months".

To understand the Biblical Truth about Daniel's 4th Beast we must first
be able to harmonize all Scripture related to the passages above - because
each prophecy represents a different perspective of the Great Tribulation.
However, we must also be able to harmonize the perspective of the 4th Beast
as shown from FOUR different periods of "days" or "times" or "watches"....

From the perspective of FOUR PERIODS the Great Tribulation is shown as
(13) the Bible presents the Great Tribulation as four (4) separate
"Watches of the Night" (the 3rd Kingdom was the "day" because the Lord
was the "Light of the World" during the New Testament Kingdom, however
the Great Tribulation is the "Night" because Satan rules the 4th Kingdom)

These "Watches of the Night" are shown as (14) the "days" when the Saints
"dead bodies shall lie in the street". They are shown as (15) the "times"
when the Saints are nourished in the "wilderness" and (16) the "times"
when the "Little Horn" rules the 4th Kingdom. They are also shown as
(17) the "forty and two months" (representing 3.5 years) when the
"Holy City" is being "tread under foot".

BTW... the four "watches" (also "days" and "times" and "prisons")
have an application to the Ministry of Christ... but that is another subject.

To understand the Biblical Truth of Daniel's (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom
we must FIRST harmonize all Scriptures related to that Beast.... we must be
able to harmonize (at least) the SEVENTEEN PASSAGES ABOVE... and many more.


Bottom Line: the four "watches" and the 3.5 "days" and "times" represents
Daniel's (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom which consists exclusively of the
10 Virgins/Kings/Horns/Toes that "went forth" from Daniel's 3rd Beast as
the followed the "Little Horn" into Great Tribulation.

 

[5thKingdom]

I don't necessarily disagree with the "4 spiritual kingdoms" idea. I think it's pretty interesting... is this your idea?

But, I don't like that you would have people sweep its physical meaning under the rug.

Also,
The 3rd woe is the 4th beast kingdom.


--------

Tranquil,

The fulfillment of Great Tribulation prophecy can ONLY be "seen" within
the context of Daniel's four (spiritual) Kingdoms which represent the
Kingdom of Heaven on earth from Creation until the (5th) Eternal Kingdom.

There is an application to the physical kingdoms but it is not primary and
I am not willing to discuss that aspect at this time. And yes, the Biblical
mystery of Daniel's Beasts was never known - until recently.

The 3rd Woe is NOT the 4th Kingdom.
Daniel's 4th Beast (the Revelations Beast and the Great Tribulation Kingdom)
BEGINS when the "testimony of the Two Witnesses" (the Great Commission)
is finished and all Saints are "sealed".

The 4th Beast BEGINS with the 5th Trumpet/1st Woe as the 7-Headed Beast
rises from being "bound" in the Bottomless Pit. The 1st Woe also represents
the 1st "Watch of the Night".

The 2nd Watch of the Night BEGINS with the 6th Trumpet and starts the
2nd Woe. During the 2nd Watch of the Night the 10 Virgins "slumbered
and slept".

During the 3rd Watch of the Night the "image" of the fist Beast arises.
During the 4th Watch of the Night the Final Harvest occurs and the
4th Beast is destroyed.

After the destruction of the 4th Beast, during the Season and Time on earth
after the 2nd Woe is past - but before the 3rd Woe begins (Rev 11;14) the
(2nd) Jewish Kingdom and the (3rd) Christian Kingdom continue on earth
(without spiritual dominion) while Satan and "his land" are judged....
this is the period AFTER the False Prophet and Daniel's 4th Beast are
"cast alive" into the Burning Flame (Lake-of-Fire)... but before Satan
and his land JOINS THEM IN THE LAKE.

Bottom Line: the Great Tribulation is shown as the 1st and 2nd Woe.
The First Beast exists during the 1st Woe and the "image" of the Beast
rules during the 2nd Woe. The 3rd woe represents eternity.

------------
Tranquil says:
When the 4th beast is killed, the remnant of the beast kingdoms (there's 7 kingdoms in the beast from the sea) live on for 70 weeks more (a season and a time), then the New Jerusalem comes down.


The 7 heads of the Revelations Beast represent the 7 Heads of Daniel's Beasts.
They include one head from the (1st) Pre-flood Kingdom and one head from
the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom and four heads from the (3rd) Christian Kigndom
and one head from the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom - namely the
"Little Horn" that rules the 4th Beast.

Secondly... the "Season and Time" does not BEGIN until after the 4th Beast
is destroyed in the Lake-of-Fire so there is no possibility of what is quoted
above because it does not harmonize with all of Scripture. Again...
God PROMISED that the Saints COULD NOT understand Daniel's prophecies
until the "time-of-the-end" and that was NOT "the end" of the Jewish Beast
and that was NOT "the end" of the Christian Beast.... it could ONLY be
"the end" of the 4th Beast or during the "Season and Time" on earth
AFTER the destruction of the 4th Beast.

As I mentioned in a previous post, before we can even begin to think that
we have found Biblical Truth - we must FIRST be able to harmonize at least
the SEVENTEEN (17) passages that represent the Great Tribulation Beast
from the perspective of ONE KINGDOM and the perspective of DUAL KINGDOMS
and the perspective of FOUR WATCHES OF THE NIGHT (also "days" and "times").