Daniel Dulcich's Rebuttal to "10 Commandments show How to Love".

[SabbathBlessings]

Actually, I think we agree on quite a few things

We both agree that we show love for God by keeping his commandments.

Previously you said we didn't need to keep the commandments of God so glad to hear you had a change of heart.

And it looks to me like we both agree that things in the law of Moses that are forever
are done symbolically, not literally.

Loving God with all our heart and loving neighbor from the law of Moses is quite literal and forever.

 

[pasifika]

Hey Pasifika.

Thanks for the conversation, I appreciate it.

I don't know if I fully agree that God had nothing to do with the Old Covenant considering He personally wrote it, but I agree the Old Covenant was based on the promises of the Israelites obeying the law and the New Covenant is based on better promises, not better laws since the law of God is perfect Psalms 19:7 and you can't improve on perfection.

I agree all righteousness (right-doing) comes from God and all of God's commandments are righteous Psalms 119:172 which means its the morally right thing to do. Our righteousness is when we depend on our own version of right-doing and not God's. When we decide which laws, we are going to obey based on our version of what we feel is right or wrong, but scripture says all of God's commandments are righteousness, so there is never a time to cast aside the commandments we don't want to keep and replace it with self-law. We cannot sanctify ourselves; we are only sanctified by God and are sanctified by the Truth of God's Word John 17:17 and all of God's commandments are Truth. Psalms 119:151

If we have been changed by Jesus, we have faith in what He asks of us and do the things He has commanded Revelation 22:14, not to be saved, but because one is saved. Those who have faith in Jesus uphold the law Romans 3:31 and keep the commandments out of love. 1 John 5:3 it's the fruit of true faith Revelation 14:12. I always pray for more faith and more love to God. When we don't keep His commandments we have a love problem and truth problem 1 John 2:4, but through Jesus Christ if we really want to change, He can give us a new heart.

Hi SB, likewise, appreciate the conversation.
What i mean that God has nothing to do under the old covenant, is He's not involved in doing or accomplishing the work given under this covenant but it solely on the peoples desire or power to obey it.

As it clearly stated in Exodus 19:8...we (people ) will do "everything" that the Lord has said...So we can see that God commands But people do or obey.

As I share with you before, that man by "nature" cannot seek or follow God (Romans 3:11-18) let alone obey His commandments this is due to our Sin our (sinful nature). We need God to do that, But under the old covenant is solely man works apart from God's works or power. So it's impossible to achieve Righteousness under this covenant because man cannot obey because they have a fallen nature. We all sin and fall short of the Glory of God.

Under the New covenant or Covenant of Promise, God is both giver and doer of the covenant. And the outcome is much more certain.

So, under the old covenant the righteousness achieve by following the law, statues etc is basically self righteousness..

The new covenant, is "the righteousness of God" Through faith in Jesus Christ.
You can see that wisdom given to Paul's in his writings in NT. Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, etc

 

[GDL]

Lots of great ideas in your post, I'm going to answer in several posts.

Here is why there are things that we do out of love for our neighbor that will overlap with things talked about in the law of Moses, but it doesn't thereby follow that those parts of the law of Moses are in effect today:

Christians today try to avoid murder.

It is against the law in North Korea to murder.

Therefore, Christians are under the laws of North Korea.

The conclusion doesn't follow from the two givens.

Christians are lawful to Christ and not unlawful to God (1 Cor 9:21).

God is the Lawgiver (James 4:12). All are accountable to Him (Rom 1-3). There are nations who do the Law by nature w/o having the Law and show the Law written on their hearts & have their consciences working effectively (Rom 2).

It matters not what N Korea legislates unless one is in N Korea. For a Christian in or out of N Korea the first statement above applies (Acts 4:19)

In addition:

Christians avoid hating people because Jesus instructs that hating another is murder (Matt5:21-22). Christians avoid murder because God commands not to murder (Exodus; Deut; Rom) and instructs that loving God is keeping His commandments (1 John 5:3). Christians also must decide what is important to them (Gal5:19-26).

Similarly,

Christian women try to avoid having sex with animals.

It is against the law of Moses for a woman to have sex with an animal.

Therefore, Christian women are under the law of Moses.

Again, the conclusion doesn't follow from the givens.

See above.

You've also negated the points I've made earlier re: God's Law, which some also call Moral Law that exists pre & post Moses Gen 26:5; 1 Cor 9:21) and in many secular hearts. So, you've also negated people like yourself and the nations that do this commandment of God's Law, which was included in Mosaic Law, by nature and show the work of God's Law written on hearts and by having functioning consciences.

Christians - those in Christ who walk in Spirit being led in Spirit - are not under Mosaic Law because Scripture says they are not (Rom 6:14-15; Gal 5:18).

But now, let's talk about the best way of all: Suppose I speak in the languages of humans or angels. If I don’t have love, I am only a loud gong or a noisy cymbal.
-based, of course, on 1 Corinthians

The characteristics of a person having Love as described in 1 Cor 13 include a few phrases many do not seem to notice:

• NKJ 1 Cor. 13:5-6 5 {Love] does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;
  
  
• Love "thinks no evil": "thinks" is from the same word used in the functional conscience of someone who does God's Law by nature (Rom 2:15). It speaks of the mental reasoning process. "evil" is a very basic word meaning "bad" - the opposite of good - according to God's Word of Righteousness (Heb5:13-14). Love does not reason the bad thing. This flows into the next statement:
• Love does not rejoice in (literally) unrighteousness (adikia). Romans 6:13 ties unrighteousness to sin and commands against it. 1 John 5:17 tells us all unrighteousness is sin. 1 John 3:4 says sin is lawlessness. Now we have Love does not reason the bad thing > Love does not rejoice in unrighteousness/sin/lawlessness. At this point one should be thinking Love for God is keeping His commandments (1 John 5:3 and the mentality of Love reasons and rejoices accordingly, or vice versa. Also 1 John 5:3 adds that keeping God's commands is not a burden. The mentality of Love agrees with this.
• Love rejoices (literally) together with the truth. Obviously, truth is being contrasted with unrighteousness, which is sin, which is lawlessness. Eph 5:9 ties together goodness (opposite of bad and BDAG defines as "positive moral quality characterized esp. by interest in the welfare of others"), righteousness (opposite of unrighteousness/sin/lawlessness and a characteristic of God and a description of Jesus Christ 1 John 2:1)) and truth (Jesus referred to Himself as the Truth (John 14:6); Gal 2:5, Gal 2:14; Eph 1:13; Col 1:5 all speak of the truth [of] the Gospel; Rom 2:8 contrasts obedience to truth with obedience to unrighteousness/sin/lawlessness; Ps 119:142 says God's Law is truth; Jer 7:28; Rom 2:8; Gal 3:1; Gal 5:7; 1 Pet 1:22 all speak of obeying the truth).
• Love does not reason the bad (but the good) > Love rejoices with righteousness (not lawlessness) > Love rejoices together with the truth. God is Love. Anyone who Loves shares the character of God and reasons and functions in His image. They keep His commandments and are not burdened by this and in this they Love God and Neighbor. The writing of God's Law in minds and on hearts is conforming us to His likeness - perfecting/completing us in Love (1 John 2:5; 1 John 4:12; 1 John 4:17).
• For us, Love for God and obedience to God are one and the same, inextricably woven together. 1 Cor 13 is ultimately no different than 1 John 5:3. Jesus teaches the same thing about love for Him John 14) - He is God.

 

[GDL]

I have, and I've found that it doesn't work. If you have found that it does work, then please post your results so far. I understand it can be quite a lot. Maybe there is a methodical way to do it. Maybe start at the beginning of Leviticus?

We could also move to a different thread, if you wish.

"When therefore it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were locked where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Judeans, Jesus came and stood in the middle, and said to them, 'Peace be to you.' "
-John

I think it does work, but it's a project. If it's been done, then God wanted it done and it'll be made available when He so desires. Same concept applies if it hasn't been done, as I said in a previous post.

You're quite interesting how you keep a relatively light prodding to see if I'll move or add to what I've pointed out. As I've said and as you've noted, it's a big project, but there's a lot of discussion on the 10C's. I'd begin there and see what you can or will accept or reject. I know @SabbathBlessings is versed and presents the pro-Law SDA point of view well. As do some others. I know @Soyeong presents the Messianic pro-Law point of view well as do some others. I know @fhansen presents the RCC and ECF pro-Moral Law well as do others. Pick a track and see where it goes, if you haven't already.

 

[GDL]

My post is off topic for the thread, but I'm not at all convinced that Paul wrote Hebrews.

But it's a great book,
"Σκιὰν γὰρ ἔχων ὁ νόμος" the law casts a single shadow, not a collection of shadows.

To be clear, I wasn't saying Paul did write Hebrews. I remain unconvinced of this as well.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Hi SB, likewise, appreciate the conversation.
What i mean that God has nothing to do under the old covenant, is He's not involved in doing or accomplishing the work given under this covenant but it solely on the peoples desire or power to obey it.

As it clearly stated in Exodus 19:8...we (people ) will do "everything" that the Lord has said...So we can see that God commands But people do or obey.

As I share with you before, that man by "nature" cannot seek or follow God (Romans 3:11-18) let alone obey His commandments this is due to our Sin our (sinful nature). We need God to do that, But under the old covenant is solely man works apart from God's works or power. So it's impossible to achieve Righteousness under this covenant because man cannot obey because they have a fallen nature. We all sin and fall short of the Glory of God.

Under the New covenant or Covenant of Promise, God is both giver and doer of the covenant. And the outcome is much more certain.

So, under the old covenant the righteousness achieve by following the law, statues etc is basically self righteousness..

The new covenant, is "the righteousness of God" Through faith in Jesus Christ.
You can see that wisdom given to Paul's in his writings in NT. Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, etc

Righteousness has always been through faith in both the Old and New Covenant. In the OC it was faith looking forward to Jesus in the NC it is faith looking back at Jesus. Give Hebrews 11 a read and you will see righteousness has always been through faith. Those with faith make different choices than those without. Genesis 26:5 Romans 3:31 It doesn’t mean one can’t stumble, but the righteous one gets back up and asks for forgiveness and asks Jesus to help overcome their sin.

We are not justified by keeping the law, keeping God’s law it is an outward expression that we have been changed inwardly by Jesus.

In my bible, scripture tells us that we must be doers of His Word and of His commandments Romans 2:13 Revelation 22:14 James 1:22 Jesus would not say If you love Me, keep My commandments if it something we could not do. Jesus came to save us from our sins Matthew 1:21, not in them and my belief is that Jesus is more power to help us overcome sin, than the devil is to keep us in sin. While we need the power of the Jesus Christ to overcome sin and help us keep the commandments but He is not going to make the choices in life for us. We can choose to sin (lie, steal, vain God’s holy name, worship other gods etc.) or we can choose to obey. One choice leads to righteousness and converting the soul Romans 6:16, Romans 2:13, Psalms 19:7 the other to condemnation Revelation 22:15, but those choices are ours to make and we will be judged by these choices. 2 Cor 5:10 Revelation 22:12. If we have faith in Jesus, we should trust what He asks of us is for our own good.

 

[pasifika]

Righteousness has always been through faith in both the Old and New Covenant. In the OC it was faith looking forward to Jesus in the NC it is faith looking back at Jesus. Give Hebrews 11 a read and you will see righteousness has always been through faith. Those with faith make different choices than those without. Genesis 26:5 Romans 3:31 It doesn’t mean one can’t stumble, but the righteous one gets back up and asks for forgiveness and asks Jesus to help overcome their sin.

We are not justified by keeping the law, keeping God’s law it is an outward expression that we have been changed inwardly by Jesus.

In my bible, scripture tells us that we must be doers of His Word and of His commandments Romans 2:13 Revelation 22:14 James 1:22 Jesus would not say If you love Me, keep My commandments if it something we could not do. Jesus came to save us from our sins Matthew 1:21, not in them and my belief is that Jesus is more power to help us overcome sin, than the devil is to keep us in sin. While we need the power of the Jesus Christ to overcome sin and help us keep the commandments but He is not going to make the choices in life for us. We can choose to sin (lie, steal, vain God’s holy name, worship other gods etc.) or we can choose to obey. One choice leads to righteousness and converting the soul Romans 6:16, Romans 2:13, Psalms 19:7 the other to condemnation Revelation 22:15, but those choices are ours to make and we will be judged by these choices. 2 Cor 5:10 Revelation 22:12. If we have faith in Jesus, we should trust what He asks of us is for our own good.

Yes, i agree Gods Righteousness has always been through Faith BUT the law given under the old covenant is Not based on Faith but on the person who follows the law as Paul stated in Galatians 3:12.."the law is "Not" based on Faith, on the contrary, it says "the "person" who does these things will live by them"..

Since, the fulfilling of the law under the old covenant is Not based on Faith, but the person who follow it, then righteousness under this covenant is self righteousness Not God Righteousness..

As Paul reinforced this point in Philippians 3:9...not having a righteousness of "my own" that comes from the law But that which is through Faith in Jesus Christ....

Here, Paul distinguish the Righteousness from the law and the Righteousness from Faith...

Romans 10:5-8..Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by law; "the "person" who does these things will live by them. BUT, The Righteousness that is by Faith says: "Do not say in your heart, who will ascend into heaven? (To bring down Christ), or descend into the deep (that is to bring up Christ from dead). But what is say? The "word" is in your mouth and in your heart....(ie the Gospel message).

Hope you can see the distinction of righteousness from law and Faith.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Yes, i agree Gods Righteousness has always been through Faith BUT the law given under the old covenant is Not based on Faith but on the person who follows the law as Paul stated in Galatians 3:12.."the law is "Not" based on Faith, on the contrary, it says "the "person" who does these things will live by them".

The law is not faith, nor did I ever state that it is, faith is in God and trusting what He asks of us and doing it, because we believe God would not ask us to do something that is not good for us in both Old and New Covenant and because we love God Exodus 20:6, 1 John 5:3. Abraham was justified through faith Romans 4:1-8 and that faith in God trusted the things that God asked and did them. Gen 26:5. How do you have faith in God but not enough faith to do the things that He asks. That does not sound like saving faith to me.

.Since, the fulfilling of the law under the old covenant is Not based on Faith, but the person who follow it, then righteousness under this covenant is self righteousness Not God Righteousness..

What is God's righteousness? God is righteous Psalms 145:17 All of God's commandments are righteous Psalms 119:172 and God's character is reflected in His commandments so doing them will always be right and there is no scripture that says obeying God's commandments is self-righteous but obeying our on self-law is righteous.

As Paul reinforced this point in Philippians 3:9...not having a righteousness of "my own" that comes from the law But that which is through Faith in Jesus Christ....

We have been through this a few times - all righteousness comes from God .... I will copy what I wrote previously which thus far you haven't really addressed.

I agree all righteousness (right-doing) comes from God and all of God's commandments are righteous Psalms 119:172 which means its the morally right thing to do. Our righteousness is when we depend on our own version of right-doing and not God's. When we decide which laws, we are going to obey based on our version of what we feel is right or wrong, but scripture says all of God's commandments are righteousness, so there is never a time to cast aside the commandments we don't want to keep and replace it with self-law. We cannot sanctify ourselves; we are only sanctified by God and are sanctified by the Truth of God's Word John 17:17 and all of God's commandments are Truth. Psalms 119:151

Here, Paul distinguish the Righteousness from the law and the Righteousness from Faith...

Romans 10:5-8..Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by law; "the "person" who does these things will live by them. BUT, The Righteousness that is by Faith says: "Do not say in your heart, who will ascend into heaven? (To bring down Christ), or descend into the deep (that is to bring up Christ from dead). But what is say? The "word" is in your mouth and in your heart....(ie the Gospel message).

Are you implying those who live by faith don't have the law of God written in the heart and doesn't do what God placed in the hearts and minds of His people?

I think we may be going in circles but I'll say this again for the record:

We are not made righteous by the law, we are made righteous by faith in God and those who have faith uphold God's law says Paul Romans 3:31. Paul very clearly says faith does not void the law, which seems to be the case you're trying to make, but instead those who have faith uphold God's law.

The law brings us to Christ Galatians 3:24 and perfect for converting the soul Psalms 19:7 because it is the right thing to do Psalms 119:172 the opposite (breaking God's law) is sin 1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7 and sin is of the devil 1 John 3:8 so that's our choice do we keep God's law through faith, or do we sit back and justify why we can't keep the law and be a slave to sin?

Paul puts it this way....

Romans 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

So its through our choices that we either sin and go down one path or have faith in God which is obedient to what He asks and leads us down the other. These are our two choices- we either take the wide path or the narrow path.

 

[Leaf473]

Previously you said we didn't need to keep the commandments of God so glad to hear you had a change of heart.

Were we talking about the same commandments?

Loving God with all our heart and loving neighbor from the law of Moses is quite literal and forever.

Actually, "heart" there is symbolic. It's not literally talking about the thing that pumps blood.

Similar use of a symbolic heart here in Matthew,
"Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

 

[Leaf473]

Loving God with all our heart and loving neighbor from the law of Moses is quite literal and forever.

Thinking about it some more, "neighbor" is symbolic as well.

The Samaritan showed himself to be a neighbor to a man that he did not live near.

"Which of these three do you think seemed to be a neighbor to him who fell among the robbers?”

He said, “He who showed mercy on him.”

Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Were we talking about the same commandments?

Actually, "heart" there is symbolic. It's not literally talking about the thing that pumps blood.

Similar use of a symbolic heart here in Matthew,
"Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

Of course, but the law of Moses to love God and love neighbor is not something that change in scripture ever.

 

[Leaf473]

It matters not what N Korea legislates unless one is in N Korea. For a Christian in or out of N Korea the first statement above applies (Acts 4:19)

Exactly! Of course, I was just using North Korea as an example.

So, you can see that doing behaviors which overlap with the laws of North Korea does not mean that you are agreeing that you are under those laws?

 

[GDL]

Exactly! Of course, I was just using North Korea as an example.

So, you can see that doing behaviors which overlap with the laws of North Korea does not mean that you are agreeing that you are under those laws?

As I said, mankind is subject to God's Laws first. This includes N Korea. The logic of the example doesn't work.

 

[Leaf473]

You've also negated the points I've made earlier re: God's Law, which some also call Moral Law that exists pre & post Moses Gen 26:5; 1 Cor 9:21) and in many secular hearts. So, you've also negated people like yourself and the nations that do this commandment of God's Law, which was included in Mosaic Law, by nature and show the work of God's Law written on hearts and by having functioning consciences.

I'm not really following what you're saying here. The logic that I laid out negated your point?

I don't think I negated any people.

 

[Leaf473]

I think it does work, but it's a project. If it's been done, then God wanted it done and it'll be made available when He so desires. Same concept applies if it hasn't been done, as I said in a previous post.

As long as law-keeping is kept theoretical, it can be discussed and debated indefinitely. It's when the details are brought forward that the discussion / debate usually resolves quickly in my experience.

That's why I keep gently prodding you to lay out the details of your practice.

Titus 3
Shun foolish questionings, genealogies, strife, and disputes about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

 

[Leaf473]

I think it does work...

One other thought,
I'm not sure how you can know that it works until you finish.

Now, the image below is not meant to be mocking in any way. It's just one of those cases where a picture is worth a thousand words and best explains what I'm getting at imo.

 

[Leaf473]

Of course, but the law of Moses to love God and love neighbor is not something that change in scripture ever.

Well... some things come to mind which hopefully you agree with:

The law of Moses doesn't change, but we love because he first loved us.

The commandments in the law Moses have symbolic aspects that we keep in order to show our love for God.

"When God said this, was he thinking only about work animals? No."

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 9:9-10 - Easy-to-Read Version

Yes, it is written in the Law of Moses: “When a work animal is being used to separate grain, don’t keep it from eating the grain.” When God said this, was he thinking only about work animals? No. He was really talking about us. Yes, that was written for us. The one who plows and the one who...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Leaf473]

As I said, mankind is subject to God's Laws first. This includes N Korea. The logic of the example doesn't work.

It doesn't sound to me like you're actually following what I was saying. Would you be willing to put what I was saying into your own words? That's one recommended way of improving communication, I've heard

 

[GDL]

Christians today try to avoid murder.

It is against the law in North Korea to murder.

Therefore, Christians are under the laws of North Korea.

God is the Lawgiver and commands man in His Law not to murder.

Christians avoid murder because it is God's will as commanded in His Law

It is against the Law in N Korea to murder, which means N Korea's law aligns with God's Law re murder.

Therefore, Christians and N Korea are doing what God commands (whether they both acknowledge God or not)


Your initial premise is not acceptable. Christians do more than try not to murder.
Your conclusion does not work. There is no logic in your dual premise that places Christians under the Law of N Korea.
The best conclusion you can have here is that Christians try to do the same thing that N Korea legislates but it cannot be concluded that Christians are under N Korea Law or try not to murder because N Korea so legislates.

 

[GDL]

Exactly! Of course, I was just using North Korea as an example.

So, you can see that doing behaviors which overlap with the laws of North Korea does not mean that you are agreeing that you are under those laws?

Sure, but what's your point, specifically?

I don't think Christians are "under Mosaic Law." I don't think Christians are "under" Law at all. I think Christians are lawful to Christ and not unlawful to God because and when they walk in Faith in Spirit and are being conformed to the likeness of the sinless, righteous Jesus Christ as God's Law is written in their minds and on their hearts as they accomplish by work their salvation as commanded with God functioning in them so they both will and do for His good pleasure. There's a difference to being under subjection to Law and being in Christ under subjection to God's grace.

I think God's Law, God's Word, and God's Spirit are perfectly unified and thus we can read in His Word & Law rightly divided what He is writing in our minds and on our hearts in Spirit under His grace in a salvation process that could not and cannot be accomplished apart from Him. I don't think all of Mosaic Law is God's Law being written on hearts. I think I've explained this. I think Mosaic Law includes God's Law plus some things mainly for a specific people - a Priest Nation - for a specific era ended with an exclamation point by 70AD.